Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [mythsoc] Digest Number 865

Expand Messages
  • Edith Crowe
    Marianne-- I m glad you joined our list! What Marianne didn t tell you is that she was a member of the Khazad-dum discussion group more years ago than either
    Message 1 of 1 , Mar 21, 2002
      Marianne--

      I'm glad you joined our list! What Marianne didn't tell you is that she was a member of the Khazad-dum discussion group more years ago than either of us likes to think about. Like a number of previous members who have strayed, she's returning to the fold. Marianne--do you use a screen reader, or some other technology?

      Edith

      mythsoc@yahoogroups.com wrote:

      >
      > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >
      > There are 10 messages in this issue.
      >
      > Topics in this digest:
      >
      > 1. Re: Re: Concordance?
      > From: "Trudy Shaw" <tgshaw@...>
      > 2. Re: Re: Concordance?
      > From: SusanPal@...
      > 3. Re: Re: Concordance?
      > From: "David S. Bratman" <dbratman@...>
      > 4. Re: Re: Concordance?
      > From: SusanPal@...
      > 5. Introduction
      > From: "Marianne Dole" <madole@...>
      > 6. Eldest?
      > From: SusanPal@...
      > 7. Re: Introduction
      > From: SusanPal@...
      > 8. Re: Eldest?
      > From: Margaret Dean <margdean@...>
      > 9. Re: Eldest?
      > From: "Trudy Shaw" <tgshaw@...>
      > 10. Re: Introduction
      > From: "Berni Phillips" <bernip@...>
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 1
      > Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 22:07:06 -0600
      > From: "Trudy Shaw" <tgshaw@...>
      > Subject: Re: Re: Concordance?
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: David S. Bratman
      > To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2002 10:04 PM
      > Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Concordance?
      >
      > At 07:04 PM 3/17/2002 , you wrote:
      > >>On 3/17/02 9:54 PM, "SusanPal@..." <SusanPal@...> wrote:
      > >>
      > > >> Has anyone published a Tolkien concordance?
      > >>
      > >>The late Richard Blackwelder published _A Tolkien Thesaurus_, which was in
      > >>fact a concordance to _The Lord of the Rings_. It was published by Garland
      > >>Publishing. I don't know whether it is still in print, but Bookfinder.com
      > >>lists a couple of used copies (at greatly inflated prices).
      >
      > >To be precise, it's a _selective_ concordance. Blackwelder explains his
      > >principles of selectivity in his preface, but this gives the impression
      > >that it's less selective than it, in fact, is. Looking up every word in a
      > >few selected sentences gave me the impression that he chose an average of
      > >two or three words from a moderately lengthy sentence, not necessarily the
      > >ones I'd have thought he'd pick. I find in practice that it takes an
      > >average of about 5 searches to find a passage I'm looking for.
      >
      > >It's a useful book, and a fantastic labor of love, but one should know its
      > >limits beforehand. With patience, it'll find you that passage you're
      > >looking for but can't remember where it was or even exactly how it goes,
      > >but it may take a while; and it can't tell you for sure that Tolkien didn't
      > >use a particular word or use it in a particular way.
      >
      > >One special feature of Blackwelder, rarely found in concordances, is
      > >separation of word usages and combination of tenses: if a word is used as
      > >both a noun and verb, he'll separate them; and he'll often combine past and
      > >present tenses, different adjectival forms, etc., into single listings.
      >
      > >David Bratman
      >
      > Susan--Are you looking for something that will let you find how many times a word is used, in what forms, and other such questions? Or just something to help find particular passages?
      >
      > If it's the latter, and it's in LotR or The Hobbit, FGS, just email me (or, I'd bet, a number of other people on the list). Outside those two books I'm not much help, but those two are basically consigned to memory. (Maybe someone else here knows The Sil, etc., etc., and we could be like the people in Fahrenheit 451 who each memorize a different book.)
      >
      > If you're looking for the former (more word-usage-type questions), well, I may be a geek, but I'm not _that_ much of a geek. 8-)
      >
      > --Trudy
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 2
      > Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 23:16:26 EST
      > From: SusanPal@...
      > Subject: Re: Re: Concordance?
      >
      > In a message dated 3/19/2002 8:07:47 PM Pacific Standard Time,
      > tgshaw@... writes:
      >
      > > If you're looking for the former (more word-usage-type questions), well, I
      > > may be a geek, but I'm not _that_ much of a geek. 8-)
      > >
      >
      > I'm looking for the former, I'm afraid -- I'm trying to trace the use of the
      > word "hope" in LotR. I've been underlining it as I read, but a concordance
      > would still be helpful.
      >
      > Thanks to anyone who responded to my query -- Trudy's post is the first I've
      > received (including my own!) after Yahoogroup's downtime this weekend. So if
      > you answered and I didn't acknowledge you, please don't be offended!
      >
      > Susan
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 3
      > Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 22:42:39 -0800
      > From: "David S. Bratman" <dbratman@...>
      > Subject: Re: Re: Concordance?
      >
      > At 08:16 PM 3/19/2002 , Susan wrote:
      >
      > >I'm trying to trace the use of the
      > >word "hope" in LotR. I've been underlining it as I read, but a concordance
      > >would still be helpful.
      >
      > If you want numerous easy-to-find examples of Tolkien's use of the word in
      > LotR, then Blackwelder's _Tolkien Thesaurus_ is a perfect source. He lists
      > 65 uses of hope or hopes, plus an additional 18 of hoped, hoping, hopeful,
      > hopeless, hopelessly.
      >
      > But if you want a definitive listing of all its appearances, you'll have to
      > do that for yourself, I'm afraid. Blackwelder is not a comprehensive list
      > of anything.
      >
      > David Bratman
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 4
      > Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 02:24:21 EST
      > From: SusanPal@...
      > Subject: Re: Re: Concordance?
      >
      > In a message dated 3/19/2002 10:43:37 PM Pacific Standard Time,
      > dbratman@... writes:
      >
      > > If you want numerous easy-to-find examples of Tolkien's use of the word in
      > > LotR, then Blackwelder's _Tolkien Thesaurus_ is a perfect source. He lists
      > >
      > > 65 uses of hope or hopes, plus an additional 18 of hoped, hoping, hopeful,
      > > hopeless, hopelessly.
      > >
      >
      > Thanks, David! Yet another book I have to acquire . . . the list grows
      > longer! :-)
      >
      > Susan
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 5
      > Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 09:58:08 -0800
      > From: "Marianne Dole" <madole@...>
      > Subject: Introduction
      >
      > Hello,
      >
      > I have been an admirer of the works of J. R. R. Tolkien for 36 years and of
      > those of C. S. Lewis for longer than that. Unfortunately, most of the
      > writings of Charles Williams aren't available in braille or (as far as I
      > know) audio formats, so I haven't been able to read many of them.
      >
      > I am very grateful to Edith Crowe for letting me know about the existence of
      > this discussion list, as I have wanted to talk with others interested in
      > mythic literature. I live in Eugene Oregon, and as far as I know, there
      > isn't a branch of the society in my area. I think there may be in Portland,
      > but I don't drive, so that's rather difficult (for some reason, they won't
      > let blind people drive. I don't know why; I think it's discriminatory, don't
      > you?).
      >
      > Anyway, this is just to say how delighted I am to talk with you. I am
      > especially interested in the Elven languages. I'm not a linguist, but I have
      > loved the sounds of languages and how they reflect their cultures since I
      > was small.
      >
      > Thanks for letting me ramble.
      >
      > Marianne Dole
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 6
      > Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 13:59:51 EST
      > From: SusanPal@...
      > Subject: Eldest?
      >
      > Tom Bombadil tells the hobbits that his name is "Eldest," that he essentially
      > predates the creation of the world -- but much later, Gandalf calls Treebeard
      > "the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun upon this
      > Middle-Earth." Does this mean that Treebeard's merely the eldest of the Free
      > Folk, whom Tom preceded? Or that, properly speaking, Tom's not a "living
      > thing"? Explanations, oh you wise ones?
      >
      > Thanks,
      > Susan
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 7
      > Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 14:03:45 EST
      > From: SusanPal@...
      > Subject: Re: Introduction
      >
      > Welcome, Marianne!
      >
      > Susan
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 8
      > Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 14:37:25 -0500
      > From: Margaret Dean <margdean@...>
      > Subject: Re: Eldest?
      >
      > SusanPal@... wrote:
      > >
      > > Tom Bombadil tells the hobbits that his name is "Eldest," that he essentially
      > > predates the creation of the world -- but much later, Gandalf calls Treebeard
      > > "the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun upon this
      > > Middle-Earth." Does this mean that Treebeard's merely the eldest of the Free
      > > Folk, whom Tom preceded? Or that, properly speaking, Tom's not a "living
      > > thing"? Explanations, oh you wise ones?
      >
      > *laugh* Susan, you've hit unerringly on one of the Great
      > Unsolved Mysteries of Tolkien Fandom. The two possible solutions
      > you've presented have certainly been suggested . . . :)
      >
      > --Margaret Dean
      > <margdean@...>
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 9
      > Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 20:08:22 -0600
      > From: "Trudy Shaw" <tgshaw@...>
      > Subject: Re: Eldest?
      >
      > When I see threads about things like this on the message boards, I generally just smile--and stay away! But I did actually post a message some weeks back on a thread that had already grown to several pages in length, titled, "Who's older: Tom or Treebeard?" The post was as follows:
      >
      > For a second, I was really excited and thought I'd found the *real* answer to this question. In issue #173 of _Amon Hen_ (the bulletin of the Tolkien Society), Christopher Fettes quotes from a letter (as yet unpublished) he received from Tolkien in reply to a letter pointing out that he (Tolkien) "...seemed to refer to both Bombadil and Treebeard as the oldest of living things."
      >
      > I read on with great excitement--seeing what Tolkien actually said about this question would be almost as extraordinary as finding a note from him saying that Elves had pointed ears! But, in typical JRRT fashion (don't you just love how the guy could do this?), he leaves things as ambiguous as he first made them. After discussing Tom Bombadil's "external" origins (i.e., when the first poem about him was written, etc.), he moves on to his "internal" origins (i.e., within the story):
      >
      > "According to (ii) [internal origins], I have left him where he is and not attempted to clarify his position, first of all because I like him and he has at any rate a satisfying geographical home in the lands of the Lord of the Rings; but more seriously because in any world or universe devised imaginatively (or imposed simply upon the actual world), there is always some element that does not fit and opens as it were a window into some other system. You will notice that though the Ring is a serious matter and has great power for all the inhabitants of the world of the Lord of the Rings, even the best and most holy, it does not touch Tom Bombadil at all. So Bombadil is 'fatherless', he has no historical origin in the world described in the Lord of the Rings."
      >
      > Now, that certainly clears everything up, doesn't it? 8-D
      >
      > -- Trudy
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Margaret Dean
      > To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 1:37 PM
      > Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Eldest?
      >
      > SusanPal@... wrote:
      > >
      > > Tom Bombadil tells the hobbits that his name is "Eldest," that he essentially
      > > predates the creation of the world -- but much later, Gandalf calls Treebeard
      > > "the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun upon this
      > > Middle-Earth." Does this mean that Treebeard's merely the eldest of the Free
      > > Folk, whom Tom preceded? Or that, properly speaking, Tom's not a "living
      > > thing"? Explanations, oh you wise ones?
      >
      > *laugh* Susan, you've hit unerringly on one of the Great
      > Unsolved Mysteries of Tolkien Fandom. The two possible solutions
      > you've presented have certainly been suggested . . . :)
      >
      > --Margaret Dean
      > <margdean@...>
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
      > ADVERTISEMENT
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 10
      > Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 18:05:33 -0800
      > From: "Berni Phillips" <bernip@...>
      > Subject: Re: Introduction
      >
      > From: "Marianne Dole" <madole@...>
      >
      > > I think there may be in Portland,
      > > but I don't drive, so that's rather difficult (for some reason, they won't
      > > let blind people drive. I don't know why; I think it's discriminatory,
      > don't
      > > you?).
      >
      > Oh, that's just in Portland. Here in California blind people drive.
      > There's just no other explanation for how some folks drive.
      >
      > True story: there's an elderly woman at church who sings in the choir.
      > She's a tiny woman who drives a great big car. She has only one eye, and
      > that one has cataracts. She can't see well enough to tell one piece of
      > music from another, and I've seen her hold her music upside down. It's
      > truly scary to think of her on the road.
      >
      > Berni
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.