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Re: [mythsoc] Re: Fwd: Burning Books for Witchcraft

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  • Stolzi@aol.com
    In a message dated 2/15/02 2:29:54 PM Central Standard Time, ... Most of us need recreation, and for some of us reading fantasy is jim-dandy recreation. CS
    Message 1 of 8 , Feb 15 1:18 PM
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      In a message dated 2/15/02 2:29:54 PM Central Standard Time,
      michael@... writes:

      > As far as the fantasy books go, it might be reasonably argued that
      > reading such literature detracts from learning about God, but even
      > the New Testament authors admonished their peers to be open to the
      > truth and tolerance.

      Most of us need recreation, and for some of us reading fantasy is jim-dandy
      recreation. CS Lewis, one of our patrons here, <G> argued for the Christian
      validity of mere honest pleasure, and was rather against a =too= lofty view
      of literature.

      It seems almost blasphemous to say "one can't be learning about God all the
      time," and many of us think there's a good deal to be learned about God from
      Narnia, or Middle Earth (David Bratman has recently reviewed no less than two
      books of religious meditations based on the latter) - but I think readers
      will take my point.

      As for the lady who would have none of THE LION TW&TW because it had a witch
      in it, I was initially reminded of CSL's remark about people who took the
      gold of Heaven literally, that "they should not be reading books written for
      grownups" - but heck, THE LION =isn't= (primarily) a book for grownups!
      Someone with her set of blinkers on, can't even be safe reading books for
      children, I guess.

      Diamond Proudbrook
    • Kati Hallenbeck
      She was the witch of Endor (sp?) I believe. ... ____________________________________________________ Kati Hallenbeck k_hallenbeck@hotmail.com
      Message 2 of 8 , Feb 15 1:28 PM
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        She was the witch of Endor (sp?) I believe.


        >From: Juliet Blosser <juliet@...>
        >Reply-To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
        >To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Fwd: Burning Books for Witchcraft
        >Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:37:07 -0600
        >
        >On Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 09:20:54AM -0800, David S. Bratman wrote:
        > > Isn't there a witch - or at least, a practitioner of divination
        > > unauthorized by God (which amounts to the same thing) in the Bible? If
        >no
        > > amount of explaining can justify LWW in that mother's eyes, then ...
        >
        >And not only is there a medium in the Bible, but she's used by God to
        >show a sinful king Saul a vision of the righteous prophet Samuel telling
        >him how he's gone astray! She's not even a villain!




        ____________________________________________________

        Kati Hallenbeck
        k_hallenbeck@...
        ____________________________________________________


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      • Christine Howlett
        Surely you are thinking of the witch of Endor, whom Saul visited? I don t remember much about the passage, except that the witch was not presented as
        Message 3 of 8 , Feb 15 1:35 PM
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          Surely you are thinking of the witch of Endor, whom Saul visited? I don't
          remember much about the passage, except that the witch was not presented as
          malevolent or 'an abomination', just as someone with a special talent...
          Christine

          -----Original Message-----
          From: David S. Bratman <dbratman@...>
          To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
          Date: Friday, February 15, 2002 12:20 PM
          Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Fwd: Burning Books for Witchcraft


          >At 09:09 AM 2/15/2002 , Susan Palwick forwarded:
          >
          >>A good friend of mine, the principal of a charter school in Newark, NJ,
          was
          >>baffled by an evangelical mother's objection to including _The Lion, the
          >>Witch, and the Wardrobe_ on the syllabus, on the grounds that it was
          satanic
          >>because it included a witch. She could not be shaken from this position
          by
          >>any amount of protestation by my friend (a very serious Catholic--not that
          >>her type would necessarily recognize Catholics as Christian) that the
          witch
          >>is the villain of the book, that the book is a pro-Christian allegory, or
          >>that its author was also famous for his highly acclaimed Christian
          spiritual
          >>writings.
          >
          >Isn't there a witch - or at least, a practitioner of divination
          >unauthorized by God (which amounts to the same thing) in the Bible? If no
          >amount of explaining can justify LWW in that mother's eyes, then ...
          >
          >
          >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
          >
          >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
          >
        • Christine Howlett
          For anyone who is interested in a study of the Levitical holiness code (where find all these prohibitions and a few hundred others), I can t think of a better
          Message 4 of 8 , Feb 15 1:43 PM
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            For anyone who is interested in a study of the Levitical holiness code
            (where find all these prohibitions and a few hundred others), I can't think
            of a better place to start than Countryman's "Dirt, Greed, and Sex". Titled
            to sell evidement, but still excellent. He's episcopalian to those who
            care.
            Christine

            -----Original Message-----
            From: michael_martinez2 <michael@...>
            To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
            Date: Friday, February 15, 2002 3:27 PM
            Subject: [mythsoc] Re: Fwd: Burning Books for Witchcraft


            >The Bible only proscribes seeking knowledge outside of the path laid
            >down by God. It's an act of rebellion (a sin, usually punishable by
            >death under the Mosaic Law) against God to seek direction or wisdom
            >from an unGodly source. Mediums, sorcerors, witches, et. al., are
            >usually portrayed in the Bible as deriving their power from spirits
            >other than God.
            >
            >The Biblical point of view has often been distorted through the
            >centuries, of course. Many Pagans/Wiccans rail against Biblical
            >proscriptions against their practices. "We're not evil", they say.
            >But, from the Bible's point of view, if you're not looking to God for
            >direction, you're rejecting him, and rejecting God is evil (or, at
            >the very least, not good).
            >
            >Where Christians have fallen off the Biblical track regarding Harry
            >Potter, the Narnia books, and even in some cases Tolkien, is that
            >they have confused any use of the word "magic" with a reliance upon
            >some spirit other than God. Tolkien's use of the word was based on
            >linguistic principle, not vulgar conceptions. All the good
            >characters in Tolkien who use "magic" are, in fact, using a God-given
            >native ability, which he usually called a sub-creational faculty.
            >The kids in Harry Potter all appear to be using native abilities,
            >too. They are born with their abilities, and by implication those
            >abilities are given to them by God (because only God can grant such
            >power).
            >
            >The Mosaic Law was pretty stringent about requiring people to stay in
            >line. The Israelites had, of course, settled among tribes and
            >nations who did not worship God (or, the God of the Bible). People
            >question whether God should or needs to be jealous. I think that
            >gets into long convoluted arguments about how much evil God obligates
            >himself to tolerate. But many (if not most) Fundamentalist
            >Christians have managed to ignore the New Testament's stipulation
            >that we are no longer subject to the Law of God, but rather to the
            >Spirit. "Vengeance is mine, says the Lord. I will repay". We're
            >pretty much expected not to be running around and drowning witches.
            >
            >Regrettably, that part of the Bible hasn't been understood for about
            >2,000 years, give or take a few generations.
            >
            >As far as the fantasy books go, it might be reasonably argued that
            >reading such literature detracts from learning about God, but even
            >the New Testament authors admonished their peers to be open to the
            >truth and tolerance. Education is as important to the Christian mind
            >as to any other mind. But Christian Fundamentalism seems to have
            >missed the whole point of the Bible.
            >
            >It's very sadly ironic.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
            >
            >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
          • Stolzi@aol.com
            In a message dated 2/15/02 7:44:03 PM Central Standard Time, ... For those who want to read it, the story is in 1 Samuel 28. It is to be noted that Saul had
            Message 5 of 8 , Feb 16 8:51 AM
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              In a message dated 2/15/02 7:44:03 PM Central Standard Time,
              chowlett@... writes:

              > Surely you are thinking of the witch of Endor, whom Saul visited? I don't
              > remember much about the passage, except that the witch was not presented as
              > malevolent or 'an abomination', just as someone with a special talent...

              For those who want to read it, the story is in 1 Samuel 28. It is to be
              noted that Saul had tried other means before to "inquire of the LORD" (vs. 6)
              and that he himself as king, perhaps under the guidance of the prophet
              Samuel, had outlawed the "mediums and spiritists from the land" (vs. 3) The
              whole story reflects Saul's desperation and suggests that, with the LORD not
              answering him, and Samuel dead (vs 3 again), he has been totally rejected.
              Even when the medium "brings up" Samuel's spirit (or whatever it is, some
              think it's not Samuel but a deception), the message is not a good one.

              It's true that the woman is not presented as malevolent (see vs 21-24), but
              her "talent" is not =approved= in this story.

              A tragic story - has someone done it in novel, play or (perhaps even better)
              operatic form?



              Diamond Proudbrook
            • alexeik@aol.com
              In a message dated 2/16/2 4:52:33 PM, Mary wrote: It appears
              Message 6 of 8 , Feb 16 10:13 AM
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                In a message dated 2/16/2 4:52:33 PM, Mary wrote:

                <<A tragic story - has someone done it in novel, play or (perhaps even
                better)
                operatic form? >>

                It appears as a scene in Carl Nielsen's opera _Saul and David_.
                Alexei
              • Stolzi@aol.com
                In a message dated 2/16/02 12:14:35 PM Central Standard Time, alexeik@aol.com ... Alexei, how come you know EVERYTHING?? Diamond Proudbrook
                Message 7 of 8 , Feb 16 12:44 PM
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                  In a message dated 2/16/02 12:14:35 PM Central Standard Time, alexeik@...
                  writes:

                  > It appears as a scene in Carl Nielsen's opera _Saul and David_.

                  Alexei, how come you know EVERYTHING??

                  Diamond Proudbrook
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