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LOTR

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  • Stolzi@aol.com
    A friend on another list tickled me with this comment ... years ago, but didn t appreciate it much; there was so very much backstory, such an overwhelming
    Message 1 of 15 , Dec 20, 2001
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      A friend on another list tickled me with this comment

      >>Gary has not read the book, ever. I read it in seminary 20something
      years ago, but didn't appreciate it much; there was so very much backstory,
      such an overwhelming burden of backstory, that somewhere along the line I
      just stopped trying to remember what "goshfluey" meant in Nimblnugget
      language and who the great-grandfather of Osprey the Fecund was.<<

      I myself always looked at that stuff as "atmosphere" and didn't worry about
      it, in fact had no idea Tolkien had systematized it so much, just liked the
      flavor it gave to the actual story. Now I find myself obsessing "what did he
      mean when he said that [something or other in Elvish] just now?" and wishing
      for a glossary in the back along with all the other appendices.

      She goes on:

      > Anyway, we walked into the theater mostly neophytes. WAlking out, our
      > consensus was: too much of a good thing. If the "good part" of a movie is
      > the
      > extraordinary big climactic scene, this was just one darn big climactic
      > scene
      > after another. It was noisy and exhausting, and the big-noisiness of it
      just
      > got wearying after awhile.
      >
      > That said, the extraordinary effects really are extraordinary. It is
      > visually
      > stunning, but relentlessly so; I wanted a palate-cleansing sorbet course
      > where we could just look at the teapot in Bilbo's house again for a few
      > minutes. Perspective gets lost when everything is huge.

      Diamond Proudbrook
    • David S. Bratman
      ... A proper reaction for the casual reader. Much of this, though highly important for a full understanding, is easily skippable if you just want the jist.
      Message 2 of 15 , Dec 20, 2001
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        At 03:42 PM 12/20/2001 , Stolzi wrote:
        >A friend on another list tickled me with this comment

        >...such an overwhelming burden of backstory, that somewhere along the line
        >I just stopped trying to remember what "goshfluey" meant in Nimblnugget
        >language and who the great-grandfather of Osprey the Fecund was.<<
        >
        >I myself always looked at that stuff as "atmosphere" and didn't worry about
        >it, in fact had no idea Tolkien had systematized it so much, just liked the
        >flavor it gave to the actual story.

        A proper reaction for the casual reader. Much of this, though highly
        important for a full understanding, is easily skippable if you just want
        the jist. That Aragorn is the lost heir of a kingless kingdom is enough:
        what the heck his genealogical relationship is isn't important to the
        story, and if you want to know, it's all laid out clearly in the appendices.

        >> consensus was: too much of a good thing. If the "good part" of a movie is
        >> the
        >> extraordinary big climactic scene, this was just one darn big climactic
        >> scene
        >> after another. It was noisy and exhausting, and the big-noisiness of it
        >just
        >> got wearying after awhile.
        >>
        >> That said, the extraordinary effects really are extraordinary. It is
        >> visually
        >> stunning, but relentlessly so; I wanted a palate-cleansing sorbet course
        >> where we could just look at the teapot in Bilbo's house again for a few
        >> minutes. Perspective gets lost when everything is huge.

        I'll certainly go along with your friend here. But at least it was paced
        well for a film of that kind. I remember seeing a film of this kind many
        years ago, called "Raiders of the Lost Ark", which was so packed with event
        after event, and so badly packed, that it was boring and tedious: one of
        the top 20, certainly, most boring films I've ever seen. This was a lot
        better than that.

        David Bratman
      • Jeremy Robinson
        ... Carl F. Hostetter makes many excellent points about the movie. I disagree on the look, though, I reckon it looks fine, photographically. (It s not the best
        Message 3 of 15 , Dec 21, 2001
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          >From Jeremy Robinson


          Carl F. Hostetter makes many excellent points
          about the movie.

          I disagree on the look, though, I reckon it looks
          fine, photographically. (It's not the
          best looking blockbuster, though). I didn't mind
          the 'darkness'. Some of the design
          was fun - you can see that the CGI designers were
          way ahead of the production
          designers and art directors (some of the interior
          sets were undistinguished), but
          the helicopter shots of Isengard and Barad-dur
          were terrific.
        • Stolzi@aol.com
          I find myself wondering about that teapot in Bilbo s house. Tobacco, yes. Tea???? Diamond Proudbrook, who once read of Maid Marian offering a casual visitor
          Message 4 of 15 , Dec 21, 2001
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            I find myself wondering about "that teapot in Bilbo's house."

            Tobacco, yes. Tea????

            Diamond Proudbrook, who once read of Maid Marian offering a casual visitor a
            cup of tea in a Robin Hood novel... and not an alternate universe one, at
            least not intentionally.
          • David S. Bratman
            ... Even Lin Carter criticized the hack sword&sorcery novel in which a villain offered a thief three hundred _dollars_ to perform some dirty deed. David
            Message 5 of 15 , Dec 21, 2001
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              >Diamond Proudbrook, who once read of Maid Marian offering a casual visitor a
              >cup of tea in a Robin Hood novel...

              Even Lin Carter criticized the hack sword&sorcery novel in which a villain
              offered a thief three hundred _dollars_ to perform some dirty deed.

              David Bratman
            • michael_martinez2
              ... Since Bilbo served tea, I don t see the problem with his having a teapot.
              Message 6 of 15 , Dec 21, 2001
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                --- In mythsoc@y..., Stolzi@a... wrote:
                > I find myself wondering about "that teapot in Bilbo's house."
                >
                > Tobacco, yes. Tea????

                Since Bilbo served tea, I don't see the problem with his having a
                teapot.
              • Lisa Deutsch Harrigan
                Tea = steeping something, many herbs make excellent teas. Many teapots from different cultures look the same. Form follows function. And if they have tobacco,
                Message 7 of 15 , Dec 21, 2001
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                  Tea = steeping something, many herbs make excellent teas. Many teapots from
                  different cultures look the same. Form follows function. And if they have
                  tobacco, why not tea?

                  Herb teas have been used for 3000 or more. They were usually considered
                  medicine, but were occasionally used socially.

                  Besides it skirts around the issue of offering tobacco or beer, more likely
                  hobbit offers, but now considered not PC. Hobbits are gracious hosts after all.

                  Mythically yours,

                  Lisa

                  Stolzi@... wrote:

                  > I find myself wondering about "that teapot in Bilbo's house."
                  >
                  > Tobacco, yes. Tea????
                • Janet Croft
                  I know that The Hobbit was full of anachronisms, but Bilbo had tea! Just before tea-time there came a tremendous ring on the front-door bell...He rushed and
                  Message 8 of 15 , Dec 21, 2001
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                    I know that The Hobbit was full of anachronisms, but Bilbo had tea! "Just
                    before tea-time there came a tremendous ring on the front-door bell...He
                    rushed and put on the kettle." "I am just about to take some tea..." "Tea!
                    No thank you! A little red wine, I think for me." Etc.
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: David S. Bratman [mailto:dbratman@...]
                    Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 4:37 PM
                    To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [mythsoc] oopses (was: LOTR)


                    >Diamond Proudbrook, who once read of Maid Marian offering a casual
                    visitor a
                    >cup of tea in a Robin Hood novel...

                    Even Lin Carter criticized the hack sword&sorcery novel in which a villain
                    offered a thief three hundred _dollars_ to perform some dirty deed.

                    David Bratman


                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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                    The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org

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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • jamcconney@aol.com
                    In a message dated 12/21/2001 4:25:12 PM Central Standard Time, ... The hobbits seem to be well acquainted with tea in the book, too. Not having read LOTR
                    Message 9 of 15 , Dec 21, 2001
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                      In a message dated 12/21/2001 4:25:12 PM Central Standard Time,
                      Stolzi@... writes:


                      > Diamond Proudbrook, who once read of Maid Marian offering a casual visitor a
                      >
                      > cup of tea in a Robin Hood novel... and not an alternate universe one, at
                      > least not intentionally.
                      >

                      The hobbits seem to be well acquainted with tea in the book, too.

                      Not having read LOTR recently and my copy having gone astray, I gave myself a
                      present of a new set and am settling down with some 1000 pages to sustain me
                      through the winter nights, cozy as a hobbit.

                      The thing that strikes me, as it did not on previous readings, is how
                      _English_ it is, not simply the outer trappings such as tea, but the social
                      structures of the Shire,
                      the landscapes, the rather unique wit. I still haven't been able to see the
                      movie and I wonder how much of that quality will come across on film.

                      Jamaq


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • ERATRIANO@aol.com
                      In a message dated 12/21/01 11:43:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, jamcconney@aol.com writes:
                      Message 10 of 15 , Dec 22, 2001
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                        In a message dated 12/21/01 11:43:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                        jamcconney@... writes:

                        << The thing that strikes me, as it did not on previous readings, is how
                        _English_ it is, not simply the outer trappings such as tea, but the social
                        structures of the Shire,
                        the landscapes, the rather unique wit. I still haven't been able to see the
                        movie and I wonder how much of that quality will come across on film. >>

                        Is it English? There is some primal similarity, there sure is.... I confess
                        that when I went to study in Loughborough, Leics., one year, I felt eerily
                        comfortable wtih all the thigns in England that I had inspired from books...
                        lots of Tolkien things, and then various history things. It was wonderful to
                        be there in person, breathing the air and all. Similar similarities (hey,
                        it's early) struck me in the Duncton Woods books...

                        Lizzie
                      • Jeremy Robinson
                        From Jeremy Robinson Michael Martinez makes many interesting points about the movie being faithful to the novel. Weta/ Osbourne/ Jackson et al will have
                        Message 11 of 15 , Dec 28, 2001
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                          From Jeremy Robinson

                          Michael Martinez makes many interesting points
                          about the movie being 'faithful' to the novel.
                          Weta/ Osbourne/ Jackson et al will have realized
                          from the outset there was no way they could
                          please all of the Tolkien fans. There would be
                          countless omissions and alterations and
                          compromises, as there in almost any literary
                          adaption. The need for Weta/ Osbourne/ Jackson et
                          al to deliver a solid 2-3 hours entertainment
                          vastly outweighed allegiance to fantasy or
                          Tolkien fans. Much more important than getting
                          details right, or pleasing fans, was delivering a
                          'PG' rated blockbuster that would launch a
                          franchise, guarantee a wide audience, make the
                          shareholders happy, rejuvenate New Line's stock,
                          justify $100-250m spent on marketing and
                          distribution, generate a swift return on the
                          investment, keep parent company AOL TW happy,
                          make a big splash on opening, create a massive
                          demand for the DVD and home video (and other
                          ancillary markets), and ensure a solid basis in
                          the market and the audience for the release of
                          the next two movies.
                          By comparison with these demands, the issues of
                          the elf-cloaks or Arwen vs. Glorfindel are pretty
                          trivial.
                          If you've got 100 people on set, costing $200,000
                          a day, approaching overtime, everyone's
                          absolutely knackered and dying to get to the
                          hotel, and some nit-picker's spending
                          half-an-hour arguing whether an elf-clasp should
                          be worn on the left or right hand side of a
                          cloak, you'd probably say, who fucking cares as
                          long as we get a decent scene!

                          Martinez is right: the only way to really do
                          justice to the novel would be a lengthy TV series
                          (TV is the way most people will watch the LOTR
                          movies anyway, like every other movie: either
                          home video, DVD, cable, satellite, pay-TV,
                          network TV or syndicated TV). A mega TV series
                          would be able to put in all those omissions that
                          fans are bitching about. Even then, though,
                          there'd still be endless alterations in the
                          troubled journey from text to screen.
                        • David J. Finnamore
                          ... Quite. I found that I enjoyed it a great deal more the second viewing. The first time, all I could think about were the differences between the movie and
                          Message 12 of 15 , Dec 29, 2001
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                            Jeremy Robinson wrote:

                            > Weta/ Osbourne/ Jackson et al will have realized
                            > from the outset there was no way they could
                            > please all of the Tolkien fans. There would be
                            > countless omissions and alterations and
                            > compromises, as there in almost any literary
                            > adaption. The need for Weta/ Osbourne/ Jackson et
                            > al to deliver a solid 2-3 hours entertainment
                            > vastly outweighed allegiance to fantasy or
                            > Tolkien fans.

                            Quite. I found that I enjoyed it a great deal more the second viewing. The first time,
                            all I could think about were the differences between the movie and the book. The second
                            time, all that was out of the way and I was able to enjoy the thrill ride without feeling
                            that something I was emotionally attached to had been violated. Well, almost -- the
                            Mortal Kombat™ scene between Saruman and Gandalf still made me cluck my tongue. Sheesh.
                            The kid's 'll dig it.

                            --
                            David J. Finnamore
                            Nashville, TN, USA
                            http://www.elvenminstrel.com
                            --
                            "Mr. Bilbo has learned him his letters--meaning no harm, mark you, and I hope no harm
                            will come of it." - the Gaffer
                          • Stolzi
                            If you have broadband - and if you absolutely hate the movie - go here! http://www.marsproductions.net/live/ Diamond Proudbrook
                            Message 13 of 15 , Mar 25, 2006
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                              If you have broadband - and if you absolutely hate the movie - go here!

                              http://www.marsproductions.net/live/

                              Diamond Proudbrook
                            • dianejoy@earthlink.net
                              I m taking this opportunity to let you know that *yes,* my computer is back and I m online! I feel like I ve been trapped in Mordor for weeks! Sorry for the
                              Message 14 of 15 , Mar 27, 2006
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                                I'm taking this opportunity to let you know that *yes,* my computer is back
                                and I'm online! I feel like I've been trapped in Mordor for weeks! Sorry
                                for the non-contrib to BW and thanks for putting it out anyway. ---djb

                                Original Message:
                                -----------------
                                From: Stolzi Stolzi@...
                                Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 12:01:49 -0600
                                To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [mythsoc] LOTR


                                If you have broadband - and if you absolutely hate the movie - go here!

                                http://www.marsproductions.net/live/

                                Diamond Proudbrook



                                The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                                Yahoo! Groups Links








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                              • Mike Foster
                                PALANTIR OUT OF ORDER is often the euphemism I choose for Sick Puter. Mike
                                Message 15 of 15 , Mar 27, 2006
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                                  'PALANTIR OUT OF ORDER' is often the euphemism I choose for Sick
                                  'Puter. Mike

                                  dianejoy@... wrote:

                                  >I'm taking this opportunity to let you know that *yes,* my computer is back
                                  >and I'm online! I feel like I've been trapped in Mordor for weeks! Sorry
                                  >for the non-contrib to BW and thanks for putting it out anyway. ---djb
                                  >
                                  >Original Message:
                                  >-----------------
                                  >From: Stolzi Stolzi@...
                                  >Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 12:01:49 -0600
                                  >To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                                  >Subject: [mythsoc] LOTR
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >If you have broadband - and if you absolutely hate the movie - go here!
                                  >
                                  >http://www.marsproductions.net/live/
                                  >
                                  >Diamond Proudbrook
                                  >
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                                  >
                                  >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                                  >Yahoo! Groups Links
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