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RE: [mythsoc] LOTR review

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  • Janet Croft
    I wasn t sure at first, but the more I see the actors, the more the pictures in my mind start to look like them. Except Gimli. I love the concept of John
    Message 1 of 18 , Dec 4, 2001
      I wasn't sure at first, but the more I see the actors, the more the pictures
      in my mind start to look like them. Except Gimli. I love the concept of
      John Rhys-Davies as Gimli, but somhow the few clips and pictures I've seen
      haven't "clicked" for me.

      Janet
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Joan Marie Verba [mailto:verba001@...]
      Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 8:45 PM
      To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [mythsoc] LOTR review


      Diamond Proudbrook wrote:

      > Am I the only one who thinks that Viggo Mortensen looks EXACTLY like
      Aragorn
      > ought to look?

      He doesn't look anything close to what I imagine Aragron to look. But I
      can make allowances.

      Joan

      ******************************************
      Joan Marie Verba
      verba001@...
      http://www.sff.net/people/Joan.Marie.Verba

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    • Grace E. Funk
      Odd reviews do pop up in odd places. In The Anglican Digest, Whitsuntide 2002, pp37-38, is an item titled We See Evil for What It Is . Having described LOTR
      Message 2 of 18 , May 30, 2002
        Odd reviews do pop up in odd places. In The Anglican Digest, Whitsuntide
        2002, pp37-38, is an item titled "We See Evil for What It Is". Having
        described LOTR (the film) as "a straightforward tale of straightforward
        good and evil", the author, one William Murchison, proceeds to take off
        on his own agenda, which is to prove that Americans have been driven
        away from non-judgmental ambivalence. Ambivance was "modern" and
        promoted by "our Intellectual Betters", he says. Americans now recognize
        that evil is personified in Osama bin Laden, who ought to be given
        royalties for contributing to the popularaity of LOTR.
        Now there's a stretch! The article was copied from the Dallas Morning
        News.

        --
        Grace E. Funk R.R. #1, Lumby, B.C. V0E 2G0 Phone (250)547-6333
      • jamcconney@aol.com
        In a message dated 5/30/2002 1:50:22 PM Central Daylight Time, ... My word!--as a good card-carrying Episcopalian, I really must track this one down. Jamaq
        Message 3 of 18 , May 30, 2002
          In a message dated 5/30/2002 1:50:22 PM Central Daylight Time,
          gfunk@... writes:


          > Odd reviews do pop up in odd places. In The Anglican Digest, Whitsuntide
          > 2002, pp37-38, is an item titled "We See Evil for What It Is". Having
          > described LOTR (the film) as "a straightforward tale of straightforward
          > good and evil", the author, one William Murchison, proceeds to take off
          > on his own agenda, which is to prove that Americans have been driven
          > away from non-judgmental ambivalence. Ambivance was "modern" and
          > promoted by "our Intellectual Betters", he says. Americans now recognize
          > that evil is personified in Osama bin Laden, who ought to be given
          > royalties for contributing to the popularaity of LOTR.
          > Now there's a stretch! The article was copied from the Dallas Morning
          > News.
          >

          My word!--as a good card-carrying Episcopalian, I really must track this one
          down.
          Jamaq


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • dianejoy@earthlink.net
          ... From: Grace E. Funk gfunk@junction.net Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 12:03:41 -0700 To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com Subject: [mythsoc] LOTR review
          Message 4 of 18 , May 31, 2002
            Original Message:
            -----------------
            From: Grace E. Funk gfunk@...
            Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 12:03:41 -0700
            To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [mythsoc] LOTR review


            << Odd reviews do pop up in odd places. In The Anglican Digest, Whitsuntide
            2002, pp37-38, is an item titled "We See Evil for What It Is". Having
            described LOTR (the film) as "a straightforward tale of straightforward
            good and evil", the author, one William Murchison, proceeds to take off
            on his own agenda, which is to prove that Americans have been driven
            away from non-judgmental ambivalence. Ambivalence was "modern" and
            promoted by "our Intellectual Betters", he says. >>

            So who are the stupid people who listened to these "intellectual betters" and followed like sheep? Some perhaps didn't know what was happening to their minds or consciences, but others just brushed it away as too impractical, too abstract, having no relationship to themselves. So when their kids come up with "that's your truth," they gurgle and look helpless

            << Americans now recognize that evil is personified in Osama bin Laden, who ought to be given royalties for contributing to the popularaity of LOTR. >>

            Osame bin Laden, sharing JRRT's royalties? Some cirtics are too clever for their own good. And this was in an *Anglican* magazine? I know it's a joke, but I find irony like that very unfunny these days. For shame! ---djb



            --
            Grace E. Funk R.R. #1, Lumby, B.C. V0E 2G0 Phone (250)547-6333




            The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org

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          • Randall Eicher
            ... Whitsuntide ... and followed like sheep? Some perhaps didn t know what was happening to their minds or consciences, but others just brushed it away as too
            Message 5 of 18 , May 31, 2002
              > << Odd reviews do pop up in odd places. In The Anglican Digest,
              Whitsuntide
              > 2002, pp37-38, is an item titled "We See Evil for What It Is". Having
              > described LOTR (the film) as "a straightforward tale of straightforward
              > good and evil", the author, one William Murchison, proceeds to take off
              > on his own agenda, which is to prove that Americans have been driven
              > away from non-judgmental ambivalence. Ambivalence was "modern" and
              > promoted by "our Intellectual Betters", he says. >>
              >
              > So who are the stupid people who listened to these "intellectual betters"
              and followed like sheep? Some perhaps didn't know what was happening to
              their minds or consciences, but others just brushed it away as too
              impractical, too abstract, having no relationship to themselves. So when
              their kids come up with "that's your truth," they gurgle and look helpless
              >
              > << Americans now recognize that evil is personified in Osama bin Laden,
              who ought to be given royalties for contributing to the popularaity of LOTR.
              >>
              >
              > Osame bin Laden, sharing JRRT's royalties? Some cirtics are too clever
              for their own good. And this was in an *Anglican* magazine? I know it's a
              joke, but I find irony like that very unfunny these days. For
              hame! ---djb
              >

              As a resident of Dallas I get to see Mr. Murchison's rantings on the
              editorial page and can provide a modicum of insight into his viewpoint. He
              is an ultra-conservative fundamentalist Christian who is always ranting on
              about how American has gotten away from "good, solid" Christian values and
              proceeds to condemn everyone and everything that does not fit in his
              extremely narrow view.

              He is of the opinion that the world would be better off blindly following
              whatever they are told by their Church leaders rather questioning and
              thinking for themselves.

              Randall Eicher
            • Christine Howlett
              Sorry, I m born American, but I have real problems selecting people to personify evil. It seems like there are too durn many people doing that to justify
              Message 6 of 18 , Jun 2, 2002
                Sorry, I'm born American, but I have real problems selecting people to
                personify evil. It seems like there are too durn many people doing that to
                justify their prejudices and then their bloodshed. I am willing to say that
                Osama's acts are morally indefensible on any grounds, even if the US had
                actually done all the evil that he accuses us of. Himself? He's one sick
                puppy. Evil? That's up to God.
                Score one for ambivalence.
                Christine

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Grace E. Funk" <gfunk@...>
                To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 3:03 PM
                Subject: [mythsoc] LOTR review


                > Odd reviews do pop up in odd places. In The Anglican Digest, Whitsuntide
                > 2002, pp37-38, is an item titled "We See Evil for What It Is". Having
                > described LOTR (the film) as "a straightforward tale of straightforward
                > good and evil", the author, one William Murchison, proceeds to take off
                > on his own agenda, which is to prove that Americans have been driven
                > away from non-judgmental ambivalence. Ambivance was "modern" and
                > promoted by "our Intellectual Betters", he says. Americans now recognize
                > that evil is personified in Osama bin Laden, who ought to be given
                > royalties for contributing to the popularaity of LOTR.
                > Now there's a stretch! The article was copied from the Dallas Morning
                > News.
                >
                > --
                > Grace E. Funk R.R. #1, Lumby, B.C. V0E 2G0 Phone (250)547-6333
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
                >
              • Pauline J. Alama
                I m with Ms. Howlett. Judge not lest ye be judged, or as Gandalf says, even the very wise do not know all ends. pauline Pauline J. Alama THE EYE OF NIGHT
                Message 7 of 18 , Jun 3, 2002
                  I'm with Ms. Howlett. Judge not lest ye be judged, or as Gandalf says, even the very wise do not know all ends.

                  pauline

                  Pauline J. Alama
                  THE EYE OF NIGHT
                  (Bantam Spectra, July 2002)


                  --- On Sun 06/02, Christine Howlett wrote:
                  From: Christine Howlett [mailto: chowlett@...]
                  To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Sun 06/02
                  Subject: Re: [mythsoc] LOTR review

                  > Sorry, I'm born American, but I have real problems selecting people to
                  > personify evil. It seems like there are too durn many people doing that
                  > to
                  > justify their prejudices and then their bloodshed. I am willing to say
                  > that
                  > Osama's acts are morally indefensible on any grounds, even if the US had
                  > actually done all the evil that he accuses us of. Himself? He's one
                  > sick
                  > puppy. Evil? That's up to God.
                  > Score one for ambivalence.
                  > Christine
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "Grace E. Funk"
                  > To:
                  > Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 3:03 PM
                  > Subject: [mythsoc] LOTR review
                  >
                  >
                  > > Odd reviews do pop up in odd places. In The Anglican Digest,
                  > Whitsuntide
                  > > 2002, pp37-38, is an item titled "We See Evil for What It
                  > Is". Having
                  > > described LOTR (the film) as "a straightforward tale of
                  > straightforward
                  > > good and evil", the author, one William Murchison, proceeds to
                  > take off
                  > > on his own agenda, which is to prove that Americans have been driven
                  > > away from non-judgmental ambivalence. Ambivance was
                  > "modern" and
                  > > promoted by "our Intellectual Betters", he says. Americans
                  > now recognize
                  > > that evil is personified in Osama bin Laden, who ought to be given
                  > > royalties for contributing to the popularaity of LOTR.
                  > > Now there's a stretch! The article was copied from the Dallas
                  > Morning
                  > > News.
                  > >
                  > > --
                  > > Grace E. Funk R.R. #1, Lumby, B.C. V0E 2G0 Phone (250)547-6333
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
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                • Carl F. Hostetter
                  That is certainly not what judge not ... means. As moral creatures with conscience and Free will, we are not only allowed but required to discern the
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jun 3, 2002
                    That is certainly not what "judge not ..." means. As moral creatures with
                    conscience and Free will, we are not only allowed but required to discern
                    the difference between good and evil. (I'm speaking both of the races of
                    Middle-earth and our own world.) What we cannot do is determine another's
                    fate. That is left to God/Eru. Osama bin Laden is evil. Sauron was evil. Is
                    either iredeemable to God/Eru? _That_ is not for us to decide.


                    |======================================================================|
                    | Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org |
                    | |
                    | ho bios brachys, he de techne makre. |
                    | Ars longa, vita brevis. |
                    | The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne. |
                    | "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take |
                    | such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about." |
                    |======================================================================|

                    --------------------------

                    On 6/3/02 7:53 AM, "Pauline J. Alama" <PJAlama@...> wrote:

                    > I'm with Ms. Howlett. Judge not lest ye be judged, or as Gandalf says, even
                    > the very wise do not know all ends.
                    >
                    > pauline
                    >
                    > Pauline J. Alama
                    > THE EYE OF NIGHT
                    > (Bantam Spectra, July 2002)
                    >
                    >
                    > --- On Sun 06/02, Christine Howlett wrote:
                    > From: Christine Howlett [mailto: chowlett@...]
                    > To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                    > Date: Sun 06/02
                    > Subject: Re: [mythsoc] LOTR review
                    >
                    >> Sorry, I'm born American, but I have real problems selecting people to
                    >> personify evil. It seems like there are too durn many people doing that
                    >> to
                    >> justify their prejudices and then their bloodshed. I am willing to say
                    >> that
                    >> Osama's acts are morally indefensible on any grounds, even if the US had
                    >> actually done all the evil that he accuses us of. Himself? He's one
                    >> sick
                    >> puppy. Evil? That's up to God.
                    >> Score one for ambivalence.
                    >> Christine
                  • trudygshaw
                    What we can t do (literally--can t) is get inside another person s being and judge his or her motivation, state of mind, and all the other things that go into
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jun 3, 2002
                      What we can't do (literally--can't) is get inside another person's being and judge his or her motivation, state of mind, and all the other things that go into the choice of an action, good or bad. We can do that only for ourselves, and even there (IMHO) only to a limited degree. One of the many reasons I'm glad I'm not God--I gratefully leave the task to her.

                      Free will gives us the responsibility to discern between good and evil (or choose from more than one good) in our own decisions, including how we decide to respond to another's evil actions.

                      --Trudy


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Carl F. Hostetter
                      To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 8:05 AM
                      Subject: Re: [mythsoc] LOTR review


                      That is certainly not what "judge not ..." means. As moral creatures with
                      conscience and Free will, we are not only allowed but required to discern
                      the difference between good and evil. (I'm speaking both of the races of
                      Middle-earth and our own world.) What we cannot do is determine another's
                      fate. That is left to God/Eru. Osama bin Laden is evil. Sauron was evil. Is
                      either iredeemable to God/Eru? _That_ is not for us to decide.


                      |======================================================================|
                      | Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org |
                      | |
                      | ho bios brachys, he de techne makre. |
                      | Ars longa, vita brevis. |
                      | The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne. |
                      | "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take |
                      | such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about." |
                      |======================================================================|

                      --------------------------

                      On 6/3/02 7:53 AM, "Pauline J. Alama" <PJAlama@...> wrote:

                      > I'm with Ms. Howlett. Judge not lest ye be judged, or as Gandalf says, even
                      > the very wise do not know all ends.
                      >
                      > pauline
                      >
                      > Pauline J. Alama
                      > THE EYE OF NIGHT
                      > (Bantam Spectra, July 2002)
                      >
                      >
                      > --- On Sun 06/02, Christine Howlett wrote:
                      > From: Christine Howlett [mailto: chowlett@...]
                      > To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                      > Date: Sun 06/02
                      > Subject: Re: [mythsoc] LOTR review
                      >
                      >> Sorry, I'm born American, but I have real problems selecting people to
                      >> personify evil. It seems like there are too durn many people doing that
                      >> to
                      >> justify their prejudices and then their bloodshed. I am willing to say
                      >> that
                      >> Osama's acts are morally indefensible on any grounds, even if the US had
                      >> actually done all the evil that he accuses us of. Himself? He's one
                      >> sick
                      >> puppy. Evil? That's up to God.
                      >> Score one for ambivalence.
                      >> Christine


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                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Bill
                      Sorry. I truly believe there are or have been evil people in this world. Hitler, for example, or Pol Phat (sp?) While bin Laden certainly is not in their
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jun 3, 2002
                        Sorry. I truly believe there are or have been evil people
                        in this world.
                        Hitler, for example, or Pol Phat (sp?)
                        While bin Laden certainly is not in their league, I've no
                        doubt, given the weapons and
                        chance, he could be. ((assuming he's still alive)).
                        Of course. one can argue evil is in the mind of the
                        beholder. I'll not go any further
                        because I might stray over into politics, and this isn't the
                        venue for that.
                        Except, in this case, in the US, at least, the
                        overwhelming belief is bin Laden IS
                        evil.



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • SusanPal@aol.com
                        In a message dated 6/3/2002 10:33:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ... I m not so sure he s not in Hitler s and Pol Pot s league -- the idea of assessing the evil
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jun 3, 2002
                          In a message dated 6/3/2002 10:33:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
                          lunacy2@... writes:


                          > While bin Laden certainly is not in their league, I've no
                          > doubt, given the weapons and
                          > chance, he could be.

                          I'm not so sure he's not in Hitler's and Pol Pot's league -- the idea of
                          assessing the evil of actions numerically makes me very nervous.

                          And I think it's much easier (although still not always easy!) to determine
                          if ACTIONS are evil than to determine if people are . . . and, to me, that
                          seems like safer theological ground, too.

                          Susan


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • jamcconney@aol.com
                          In a message dated 6/3/2002 12:33:28 PM Central Daylight Time, ... Dorothy Sayers has an essay ( in _Creed or Chaos_ I think) in which she asks the reader (I
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jun 3, 2002
                            In a message dated 6/3/2002 12:33:28 PM Central Daylight Time,
                            lunacy2@... writes:


                            > While bin Laden certainly is not in their league, I've no
                            > doubt, given the weapons and
                            > chance, he could be.

                            Dorothy Sayers has an essay ( in _Creed or Chaos_ I think) in which she asks
                            the reader (I paraphrase, not having the book at hand) if the evil we do is
                            less because we lack the opportunity. It's an interesting point, as we do
                            tend to be a bit unclear whether we're talking about quantity or quality (if
                            one can use the word 'quality' about evil). Is the _quality_ of evil greater
                            in the WTC attack than in the Cole bombing--or was it just a bigger death
                            toll and a lot more spectacular.

                            Mind you, I don't necessarily subscribe to what I'm suggesting--I'm just
                            throwing the idea out for discussion. I don't subscribe to leGuin's "The Ones
                            Who Walk Away from Omelas" either, being of the unfortunate temperament that
                            prefers to draw the line in the sand and slug it out--but even after having
                            read it many times, I cry at the end.

                            Jamaq


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • michael_martinez2
                            I think I have read this entire discussion to date. I don t quite follow it. What was the definition for evil being used in the original article? While I
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jun 3, 2002
                              I think I have read this entire discussion to date. I don't quite
                              follow it. What was the definition for "evil" being used in the
                              original article? While I do feel Osama Bin Laden is evil, that
                              belief is founded upon my own understanding of what constitutes
                              evil. I'm not sure there is or can be a magnitude of evil. One may
                              or may not be evil, but each evil act is a thing unto itself. After
                              unjustly putting many Christians to death, Saul of Tarsus had an
                              experience on the road to Damascus which changed his life, his
                              beliefs, and his behavior.

                              Was he evil simply because he had sinned?

                              The Christian view of evil can be distorted (or distilled into
                              various flavors) through argument and debate, but if Saul were really
                              deemed evil by God, then why would God make him an apostle? Or can
                              evil be cleansed from the soul? Isn't that what salvation is all
                              about?

                              Is Osama Bin Laden truly responsible for spurring sales of THE LORD
                              OF THE RINGS (and one must wonder how such influence was factored out
                              of the normally strong sales AND the movie-inspired sales AND the
                              various commercial play-inspired sales)? That sounds rather like the
                              claim that Al Gore invented the Internet, or that the business boom
                              of the 1990s would not have happened had Clinton not won the
                              presidency.

                              Maybe if Charles Beckwith III hadn't sat on a bench on April 13,
                              1914, World War II would never have happened. He committed such an
                              evil act, if he truly existed, and if his action was indeed the cause
                              of a long chain of events which led to the invasion of Poland. After
                              all, where does one draw the line between good and evil?

                              Is this simply another case of "Us" versus "Them"? According to
                              Osama Bin Laden (and millions of people in the Arab/Muslim world, if
                              the western news media is to be believed), America is evil. That
                              makes us evil. Why? Because someone else believes we are evil.
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