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Re: [mythsoc] LOTR review

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  • Stolzi@aol.com
    In a message dated 12/2/01 11:34:42 AM Central Standard Time, ... I was depressed that the reviewer found the evil things in the film the most convincing, and
    Message 1 of 18 , Dec 2, 2001
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      In a message dated 12/2/01 11:34:42 AM Central Standard Time,
      dbratman@... writes:

      > I'm intrigued that I would criticize much of what he
      > finds praiseworthy, and praise what he criticizes.
      >

      I was depressed that the reviewer found the evil things in the film the most
      convincing, and the things representing Good to be hackneyed and trite.
      (Well, OK, I myself thought that Galadriel's swan boat as seen in stills was
      rather icky.)

      If it's true, it is a failure on Jackson's part, certainly (and I've been
      alarmed by the likeness of some shots and clips I've seen to Horror Movies).
      If it's not true, then either the reviewer, which is bad, or the whole
      culture, which is worse, simply has a blind spot, an allergy or deafness to
      Good. Which is highly possible.

      As for what you say about HPOTTER, David, I dunno. He hasn't said it's
      "terrible," just that it doesn't have "real passion, real emotion, real
      terror, and a tactile sense of Evil" - and I am not sure, myself, that it
      did. At least, maybe appropriately for a children's film, these things were
      not there on a very deep level.

      Am I the only one who thinks that Viggo Mortensen looks EXACTLY like Aragorn
      ought to look?

      Diamond Proudbrook
    • Joan Marie Verba
      ... He doesn t look anything close to what I imagine Aragron to look. But I can make allowances. Joan ****************************************** Joan Marie
      Message 2 of 18 , Dec 2, 2001
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        Diamond Proudbrook wrote:

        > Am I the only one who thinks that Viggo Mortensen looks EXACTLY like Aragorn
        > ought to look?

        He doesn't look anything close to what I imagine Aragron to look. But I
        can make allowances.

        Joan

        ******************************************
        Joan Marie Verba
        verba001@...
        http://www.sff.net/people/Joan.Marie.Verba
      • Janet Croft
        I wasn t sure at first, but the more I see the actors, the more the pictures in my mind start to look like them. Except Gimli. I love the concept of John
        Message 3 of 18 , Dec 4, 2001
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          I wasn't sure at first, but the more I see the actors, the more the pictures
          in my mind start to look like them. Except Gimli. I love the concept of
          John Rhys-Davies as Gimli, but somhow the few clips and pictures I've seen
          haven't "clicked" for me.

          Janet
          -----Original Message-----
          From: Joan Marie Verba [mailto:verba001@...]
          Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 8:45 PM
          To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [mythsoc] LOTR review


          Diamond Proudbrook wrote:

          > Am I the only one who thinks that Viggo Mortensen looks EXACTLY like
          Aragorn
          > ought to look?

          He doesn't look anything close to what I imagine Aragron to look. But I
          can make allowances.

          Joan

          ******************************************
          Joan Marie Verba
          verba001@...
          http://www.sff.net/people/Joan.Marie.Verba

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        • Grace E. Funk
          Odd reviews do pop up in odd places. In The Anglican Digest, Whitsuntide 2002, pp37-38, is an item titled We See Evil for What It Is . Having described LOTR
          Message 4 of 18 , May 30, 2002
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            Odd reviews do pop up in odd places. In The Anglican Digest, Whitsuntide
            2002, pp37-38, is an item titled "We See Evil for What It Is". Having
            described LOTR (the film) as "a straightforward tale of straightforward
            good and evil", the author, one William Murchison, proceeds to take off
            on his own agenda, which is to prove that Americans have been driven
            away from non-judgmental ambivalence. Ambivance was "modern" and
            promoted by "our Intellectual Betters", he says. Americans now recognize
            that evil is personified in Osama bin Laden, who ought to be given
            royalties for contributing to the popularaity of LOTR.
            Now there's a stretch! The article was copied from the Dallas Morning
            News.

            --
            Grace E. Funk R.R. #1, Lumby, B.C. V0E 2G0 Phone (250)547-6333
          • jamcconney@aol.com
            In a message dated 5/30/2002 1:50:22 PM Central Daylight Time, ... My word!--as a good card-carrying Episcopalian, I really must track this one down. Jamaq
            Message 5 of 18 , May 30, 2002
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              In a message dated 5/30/2002 1:50:22 PM Central Daylight Time,
              gfunk@... writes:


              > Odd reviews do pop up in odd places. In The Anglican Digest, Whitsuntide
              > 2002, pp37-38, is an item titled "We See Evil for What It Is". Having
              > described LOTR (the film) as "a straightforward tale of straightforward
              > good and evil", the author, one William Murchison, proceeds to take off
              > on his own agenda, which is to prove that Americans have been driven
              > away from non-judgmental ambivalence. Ambivance was "modern" and
              > promoted by "our Intellectual Betters", he says. Americans now recognize
              > that evil is personified in Osama bin Laden, who ought to be given
              > royalties for contributing to the popularaity of LOTR.
              > Now there's a stretch! The article was copied from the Dallas Morning
              > News.
              >

              My word!--as a good card-carrying Episcopalian, I really must track this one
              down.
              Jamaq


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • dianejoy@earthlink.net
              ... From: Grace E. Funk gfunk@junction.net Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 12:03:41 -0700 To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com Subject: [mythsoc] LOTR review
              Message 6 of 18 , May 31, 2002
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                Original Message:
                -----------------
                From: Grace E. Funk gfunk@...
                Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 12:03:41 -0700
                To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [mythsoc] LOTR review


                << Odd reviews do pop up in odd places. In The Anglican Digest, Whitsuntide
                2002, pp37-38, is an item titled "We See Evil for What It Is". Having
                described LOTR (the film) as "a straightforward tale of straightforward
                good and evil", the author, one William Murchison, proceeds to take off
                on his own agenda, which is to prove that Americans have been driven
                away from non-judgmental ambivalence. Ambivalence was "modern" and
                promoted by "our Intellectual Betters", he says. >>

                So who are the stupid people who listened to these "intellectual betters" and followed like sheep? Some perhaps didn't know what was happening to their minds or consciences, but others just brushed it away as too impractical, too abstract, having no relationship to themselves. So when their kids come up with "that's your truth," they gurgle and look helpless

                << Americans now recognize that evil is personified in Osama bin Laden, who ought to be given royalties for contributing to the popularaity of LOTR. >>

                Osame bin Laden, sharing JRRT's royalties? Some cirtics are too clever for their own good. And this was in an *Anglican* magazine? I know it's a joke, but I find irony like that very unfunny these days. For shame! ---djb



                --
                Grace E. Funk R.R. #1, Lumby, B.C. V0E 2G0 Phone (250)547-6333




                The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org

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              • Randall Eicher
                ... Whitsuntide ... and followed like sheep? Some perhaps didn t know what was happening to their minds or consciences, but others just brushed it away as too
                Message 7 of 18 , May 31, 2002
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                  > << Odd reviews do pop up in odd places. In The Anglican Digest,
                  Whitsuntide
                  > 2002, pp37-38, is an item titled "We See Evil for What It Is". Having
                  > described LOTR (the film) as "a straightforward tale of straightforward
                  > good and evil", the author, one William Murchison, proceeds to take off
                  > on his own agenda, which is to prove that Americans have been driven
                  > away from non-judgmental ambivalence. Ambivalence was "modern" and
                  > promoted by "our Intellectual Betters", he says. >>
                  >
                  > So who are the stupid people who listened to these "intellectual betters"
                  and followed like sheep? Some perhaps didn't know what was happening to
                  their minds or consciences, but others just brushed it away as too
                  impractical, too abstract, having no relationship to themselves. So when
                  their kids come up with "that's your truth," they gurgle and look helpless
                  >
                  > << Americans now recognize that evil is personified in Osama bin Laden,
                  who ought to be given royalties for contributing to the popularaity of LOTR.
                  >>
                  >
                  > Osame bin Laden, sharing JRRT's royalties? Some cirtics are too clever
                  for their own good. And this was in an *Anglican* magazine? I know it's a
                  joke, but I find irony like that very unfunny these days. For
                  hame! ---djb
                  >

                  As a resident of Dallas I get to see Mr. Murchison's rantings on the
                  editorial page and can provide a modicum of insight into his viewpoint. He
                  is an ultra-conservative fundamentalist Christian who is always ranting on
                  about how American has gotten away from "good, solid" Christian values and
                  proceeds to condemn everyone and everything that does not fit in his
                  extremely narrow view.

                  He is of the opinion that the world would be better off blindly following
                  whatever they are told by their Church leaders rather questioning and
                  thinking for themselves.

                  Randall Eicher
                • Christine Howlett
                  Sorry, I m born American, but I have real problems selecting people to personify evil. It seems like there are too durn many people doing that to justify
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jun 2, 2002
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                    Sorry, I'm born American, but I have real problems selecting people to
                    personify evil. It seems like there are too durn many people doing that to
                    justify their prejudices and then their bloodshed. I am willing to say that
                    Osama's acts are morally indefensible on any grounds, even if the US had
                    actually done all the evil that he accuses us of. Himself? He's one sick
                    puppy. Evil? That's up to God.
                    Score one for ambivalence.
                    Christine

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Grace E. Funk" <gfunk@...>
                    To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 3:03 PM
                    Subject: [mythsoc] LOTR review


                    > Odd reviews do pop up in odd places. In The Anglican Digest, Whitsuntide
                    > 2002, pp37-38, is an item titled "We See Evil for What It Is". Having
                    > described LOTR (the film) as "a straightforward tale of straightforward
                    > good and evil", the author, one William Murchison, proceeds to take off
                    > on his own agenda, which is to prove that Americans have been driven
                    > away from non-judgmental ambivalence. Ambivance was "modern" and
                    > promoted by "our Intellectual Betters", he says. Americans now recognize
                    > that evil is personified in Osama bin Laden, who ought to be given
                    > royalties for contributing to the popularaity of LOTR.
                    > Now there's a stretch! The article was copied from the Dallas Morning
                    > News.
                    >
                    > --
                    > Grace E. Funk R.R. #1, Lumby, B.C. V0E 2G0 Phone (250)547-6333
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Pauline J. Alama
                    I m with Ms. Howlett. Judge not lest ye be judged, or as Gandalf says, even the very wise do not know all ends. pauline Pauline J. Alama THE EYE OF NIGHT
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jun 3, 2002
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                      I'm with Ms. Howlett. Judge not lest ye be judged, or as Gandalf says, even the very wise do not know all ends.

                      pauline

                      Pauline J. Alama
                      THE EYE OF NIGHT
                      (Bantam Spectra, July 2002)


                      --- On Sun 06/02, Christine Howlett wrote:
                      From: Christine Howlett [mailto: chowlett@...]
                      To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Sun 06/02
                      Subject: Re: [mythsoc] LOTR review

                      > Sorry, I'm born American, but I have real problems selecting people to
                      > personify evil. It seems like there are too durn many people doing that
                      > to
                      > justify their prejudices and then their bloodshed. I am willing to say
                      > that
                      > Osama's acts are morally indefensible on any grounds, even if the US had
                      > actually done all the evil that he accuses us of. Himself? He's one
                      > sick
                      > puppy. Evil? That's up to God.
                      > Score one for ambivalence.
                      > Christine
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "Grace E. Funk"
                      > To:
                      > Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 3:03 PM
                      > Subject: [mythsoc] LOTR review
                      >
                      >
                      > > Odd reviews do pop up in odd places. In The Anglican Digest,
                      > Whitsuntide
                      > > 2002, pp37-38, is an item titled "We See Evil for What It
                      > Is". Having
                      > > described LOTR (the film) as "a straightforward tale of
                      > straightforward
                      > > good and evil", the author, one William Murchison, proceeds to
                      > take off
                      > > on his own agenda, which is to prove that Americans have been driven
                      > > away from non-judgmental ambivalence. Ambivance was
                      > "modern" and
                      > > promoted by "our Intellectual Betters", he says. Americans
                      > now recognize
                      > > that evil is personified in Osama bin Laden, who ought to be given
                      > > royalties for contributing to the popularaity of LOTR.
                      > > Now there's a stretch! The article was copied from the Dallas
                      > Morning
                      > > News.
                      > >
                      > > --
                      > > Grace E. Funk R.R. #1, Lumby, B.C. V0E 2G0 Phone (250)547-6333
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                      > >
                      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
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                    • Carl F. Hostetter
                      That is certainly not what judge not ... means. As moral creatures with conscience and Free will, we are not only allowed but required to discern the
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jun 3, 2002
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                        That is certainly not what "judge not ..." means. As moral creatures with
                        conscience and Free will, we are not only allowed but required to discern
                        the difference between good and evil. (I'm speaking both of the races of
                        Middle-earth and our own world.) What we cannot do is determine another's
                        fate. That is left to God/Eru. Osama bin Laden is evil. Sauron was evil. Is
                        either iredeemable to God/Eru? _That_ is not for us to decide.


                        |======================================================================|
                        | Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org |
                        | |
                        | ho bios brachys, he de techne makre. |
                        | Ars longa, vita brevis. |
                        | The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne. |
                        | "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take |
                        | such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about." |
                        |======================================================================|

                        --------------------------

                        On 6/3/02 7:53 AM, "Pauline J. Alama" <PJAlama@...> wrote:

                        > I'm with Ms. Howlett. Judge not lest ye be judged, or as Gandalf says, even
                        > the very wise do not know all ends.
                        >
                        > pauline
                        >
                        > Pauline J. Alama
                        > THE EYE OF NIGHT
                        > (Bantam Spectra, July 2002)
                        >
                        >
                        > --- On Sun 06/02, Christine Howlett wrote:
                        > From: Christine Howlett [mailto: chowlett@...]
                        > To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                        > Date: Sun 06/02
                        > Subject: Re: [mythsoc] LOTR review
                        >
                        >> Sorry, I'm born American, but I have real problems selecting people to
                        >> personify evil. It seems like there are too durn many people doing that
                        >> to
                        >> justify their prejudices and then their bloodshed. I am willing to say
                        >> that
                        >> Osama's acts are morally indefensible on any grounds, even if the US had
                        >> actually done all the evil that he accuses us of. Himself? He's one
                        >> sick
                        >> puppy. Evil? That's up to God.
                        >> Score one for ambivalence.
                        >> Christine
                      • trudygshaw
                        What we can t do (literally--can t) is get inside another person s being and judge his or her motivation, state of mind, and all the other things that go into
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jun 3, 2002
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                          What we can't do (literally--can't) is get inside another person's being and judge his or her motivation, state of mind, and all the other things that go into the choice of an action, good or bad. We can do that only for ourselves, and even there (IMHO) only to a limited degree. One of the many reasons I'm glad I'm not God--I gratefully leave the task to her.

                          Free will gives us the responsibility to discern between good and evil (or choose from more than one good) in our own decisions, including how we decide to respond to another's evil actions.

                          --Trudy


                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Carl F. Hostetter
                          To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 8:05 AM
                          Subject: Re: [mythsoc] LOTR review


                          That is certainly not what "judge not ..." means. As moral creatures with
                          conscience and Free will, we are not only allowed but required to discern
                          the difference between good and evil. (I'm speaking both of the races of
                          Middle-earth and our own world.) What we cannot do is determine another's
                          fate. That is left to God/Eru. Osama bin Laden is evil. Sauron was evil. Is
                          either iredeemable to God/Eru? _That_ is not for us to decide.


                          |======================================================================|
                          | Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org |
                          | |
                          | ho bios brachys, he de techne makre. |
                          | Ars longa, vita brevis. |
                          | The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne. |
                          | "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take |
                          | such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about." |
                          |======================================================================|

                          --------------------------

                          On 6/3/02 7:53 AM, "Pauline J. Alama" <PJAlama@...> wrote:

                          > I'm with Ms. Howlett. Judge not lest ye be judged, or as Gandalf says, even
                          > the very wise do not know all ends.
                          >
                          > pauline
                          >
                          > Pauline J. Alama
                          > THE EYE OF NIGHT
                          > (Bantam Spectra, July 2002)
                          >
                          >
                          > --- On Sun 06/02, Christine Howlett wrote:
                          > From: Christine Howlett [mailto: chowlett@...]
                          > To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                          > Date: Sun 06/02
                          > Subject: Re: [mythsoc] LOTR review
                          >
                          >> Sorry, I'm born American, but I have real problems selecting people to
                          >> personify evil. It seems like there are too durn many people doing that
                          >> to
                          >> justify their prejudices and then their bloodshed. I am willing to say
                          >> that
                          >> Osama's acts are morally indefensible on any grounds, even if the US had
                          >> actually done all the evil that he accuses us of. Himself? He's one
                          >> sick
                          >> puppy. Evil? That's up to God.
                          >> Score one for ambivalence.
                          >> Christine


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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Bill
                          Sorry. I truly believe there are or have been evil people in this world. Hitler, for example, or Pol Phat (sp?) While bin Laden certainly is not in their
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jun 3, 2002
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                            Sorry. I truly believe there are or have been evil people
                            in this world.
                            Hitler, for example, or Pol Phat (sp?)
                            While bin Laden certainly is not in their league, I've no
                            doubt, given the weapons and
                            chance, he could be. ((assuming he's still alive)).
                            Of course. one can argue evil is in the mind of the
                            beholder. I'll not go any further
                            because I might stray over into politics, and this isn't the
                            venue for that.
                            Except, in this case, in the US, at least, the
                            overwhelming belief is bin Laden IS
                            evil.



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • SusanPal@aol.com
                            In a message dated 6/3/2002 10:33:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ... I m not so sure he s not in Hitler s and Pol Pot s league -- the idea of assessing the evil
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jun 3, 2002
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                              In a message dated 6/3/2002 10:33:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
                              lunacy2@... writes:


                              > While bin Laden certainly is not in their league, I've no
                              > doubt, given the weapons and
                              > chance, he could be.

                              I'm not so sure he's not in Hitler's and Pol Pot's league -- the idea of
                              assessing the evil of actions numerically makes me very nervous.

                              And I think it's much easier (although still not always easy!) to determine
                              if ACTIONS are evil than to determine if people are . . . and, to me, that
                              seems like safer theological ground, too.

                              Susan


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • jamcconney@aol.com
                              In a message dated 6/3/2002 12:33:28 PM Central Daylight Time, ... Dorothy Sayers has an essay ( in _Creed or Chaos_ I think) in which she asks the reader (I
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jun 3, 2002
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                                In a message dated 6/3/2002 12:33:28 PM Central Daylight Time,
                                lunacy2@... writes:


                                > While bin Laden certainly is not in their league, I've no
                                > doubt, given the weapons and
                                > chance, he could be.

                                Dorothy Sayers has an essay ( in _Creed or Chaos_ I think) in which she asks
                                the reader (I paraphrase, not having the book at hand) if the evil we do is
                                less because we lack the opportunity. It's an interesting point, as we do
                                tend to be a bit unclear whether we're talking about quantity or quality (if
                                one can use the word 'quality' about evil). Is the _quality_ of evil greater
                                in the WTC attack than in the Cole bombing--or was it just a bigger death
                                toll and a lot more spectacular.

                                Mind you, I don't necessarily subscribe to what I'm suggesting--I'm just
                                throwing the idea out for discussion. I don't subscribe to leGuin's "The Ones
                                Who Walk Away from Omelas" either, being of the unfortunate temperament that
                                prefers to draw the line in the sand and slug it out--but even after having
                                read it many times, I cry at the end.

                                Jamaq


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • michael_martinez2
                                I think I have read this entire discussion to date. I don t quite follow it. What was the definition for evil being used in the original article? While I
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jun 3, 2002
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                                  I think I have read this entire discussion to date. I don't quite
                                  follow it. What was the definition for "evil" being used in the
                                  original article? While I do feel Osama Bin Laden is evil, that
                                  belief is founded upon my own understanding of what constitutes
                                  evil. I'm not sure there is or can be a magnitude of evil. One may
                                  or may not be evil, but each evil act is a thing unto itself. After
                                  unjustly putting many Christians to death, Saul of Tarsus had an
                                  experience on the road to Damascus which changed his life, his
                                  beliefs, and his behavior.

                                  Was he evil simply because he had sinned?

                                  The Christian view of evil can be distorted (or distilled into
                                  various flavors) through argument and debate, but if Saul were really
                                  deemed evil by God, then why would God make him an apostle? Or can
                                  evil be cleansed from the soul? Isn't that what salvation is all
                                  about?

                                  Is Osama Bin Laden truly responsible for spurring sales of THE LORD
                                  OF THE RINGS (and one must wonder how such influence was factored out
                                  of the normally strong sales AND the movie-inspired sales AND the
                                  various commercial play-inspired sales)? That sounds rather like the
                                  claim that Al Gore invented the Internet, or that the business boom
                                  of the 1990s would not have happened had Clinton not won the
                                  presidency.

                                  Maybe if Charles Beckwith III hadn't sat on a bench on April 13,
                                  1914, World War II would never have happened. He committed such an
                                  evil act, if he truly existed, and if his action was indeed the cause
                                  of a long chain of events which led to the invasion of Poland. After
                                  all, where does one draw the line between good and evil?

                                  Is this simply another case of "Us" versus "Them"? According to
                                  Osama Bin Laden (and millions of people in the Arab/Muslim world, if
                                  the western news media is to be believed), America is evil. That
                                  makes us evil. Why? Because someone else believes we are evil.
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