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Re: Recent Suite101 Tolkien/Middle-earth articles

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  • Michael Martinez
    ... I d scope ... Yes, it is a Hebrew word, used in reference to the distinctions drawn between peoples. The Shibboleth of Feanor is a fairly late essay,
    Message 1 of 7 , Oct 31, 2001
      --- In mythsoc@y..., ERATRIANO@a... wrote:
      > In a message dated 10/31/01 12:35:53 PM Eastern Standard Time,
      > michael@x... writes:
      >
      > << But there may also be a connection with the much
      > later 'Shibboleth of Feanor'. >>
      >
      > The what?? And isn't Shibboleth a Hebrew word for something? Sure
      I'd scope
      > the site but I'm just not online much lately.

      Yes, it is a Hebrew word, used in reference to the distinctions drawn
      between peoples. "The Shibboleth of Feanor" is a fairly late essay,
      published in THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH, which discusses how a
      controversy over the change in pronunciation of a specific sound
      (which occurred in his mother's name, and is represented by the Thorn
      character, shifting to an S-sound) led to a division of the Noldor
      into two linguistic communities, reflecting the broader division of
      the nation into what might be called two philosophical or political
      communities (although I think that is oversimplification).
    • James P. Robinson III
      I thought that shibboleth referred to a password or secret word originally and, in English, referred to when a proper noun (like an individual s name) had
      Message 2 of 7 , Oct 31, 2001
        I thought that shibboleth referred to a password or secret word originally
        and, in English, referred to when a proper noun (like an individual's name)
        had become merely a watchword or byword for a particular concept or idea,
        losing the remainder of its individual qualities along the way.

        Jim


        As the clock struck 09:55 PM 10/31/2001 +0000, Michael Martinez took pen in
        hand and wrote:
        >--- In mythsoc@y..., ERATRIANO@a... wrote:
        > > In a message dated 10/31/01 12:35:53 PM Eastern Standard Time,
        > > michael@x... writes:
        > >
        > > << But there may also be a connection with the much
        > > later 'Shibboleth of Feanor'. >>
        > >
        > > The what?? And isn't Shibboleth a Hebrew word for something? Sure
        >I'd scope
        > > the site but I'm just not online much lately.
        >
        >Yes, it is a Hebrew word, used in reference to the distinctions drawn
        >between peoples. "The Shibboleth of Feanor" is a fairly late essay,
        >published in THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH, which discusses how a
        >controversy over the change in pronunciation of a specific sound
        >(which occurred in his mother's name, and is represented by the Thorn
        >character, shifting to an S-sound) led to a division of the Noldor
        >into two linguistic communities, reflecting the broader division of
        >the nation into what might be called two philosophical or political
        >communities (although I think that is oversimplification).
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
        >
        >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

        --
        =================================================
        James P. Robinson III jprobins@...

        All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
        author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with
        an attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
        given in writing.
        =================================================
      • James P. Robinson III
        I should have looked it up before I posted. According to yourdictionary.com: Main Entry: shib.bo.leth Pronunciation: shi-b&-l&th also - leth Function: noun
        Message 3 of 7 , Oct 31, 2001
          I should have looked it up before I posted. According to yourdictionary.com:

          Main Entry: shib.bo.leth
          Pronunciation: 'shi-b&-l&th also -"leth
          Function: noun
          Etymology: Hebrew shibbOleth stream; from the
          use of this word
          in Judg 12:6 as a test to distinguish
          Gileadites from Ephraimites,
          who pronounced it sibbOleth
          Date: 1638
          1 a : a word or saying used by adherents of a
          party, sect, or belief
          and usually regarded by others as empty of
          real meaning b : a
          widely held belief c : TRUISM, PLATITUDE
          2 a : a use of language regarded as
          distinctive of a particular
          group b : a custom or usage regarded as
          distinguishing one group
          from others




          As the clock struck 09:55 PM 10/31/2001 +0000, Michael Martinez took pen in
          hand and wrote:
          >--- In mythsoc@y..., ERATRIANO@a... wrote:
          > > In a message dated 10/31/01 12:35:53 PM Eastern Standard Time,
          > > michael@x... writes:
          > >
          > > << But there may also be a connection with the much
          > > later 'Shibboleth of Feanor'. >>
          > >
          > > The what?? And isn't Shibboleth a Hebrew word for something? Sure
          >I'd scope
          > > the site but I'm just not online much lately.
          >
          >Yes, it is a Hebrew word, used in reference to the distinctions drawn
          >between peoples. "The Shibboleth of Feanor" is a fairly late essay,
          >published in THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH, which discusses how a
          >controversy over the change in pronunciation of a specific sound
          >(which occurred in his mother's name, and is represented by the Thorn
          >character, shifting to an S-sound) led to a division of the Noldor
          >into two linguistic communities, reflecting the broader division of
          >the nation into what might be called two philosophical or political
          >communities (although I think that is oversimplification).
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
          >
          >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

          --
          =================================================
          James P. Robinson III jprobins@...

          All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
          author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with
          an attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
          given in writing.
          =================================================
        • Juliet Blosser
          ... Shibboleth comes from Judges 12:6. My condensation of the story: The Ammonites were attacking a region of Israel, and God sent a Gileadite named
          Message 4 of 7 , Oct 31, 2001
            On Wed, Oct 31, 2001 at 02:08:13PM -0500, ERATRIANO@... wrote:
            > In a message dated 10/31/01 12:35:53 PM Eastern Standard Time,
            > michael@... writes:
            >
            > << But there may also be a connection with the much
            > later 'Shibboleth of Feanor'. >>
            >
            > The what?? And isn't Shibboleth a Hebrew word for something? Sure I'd scope
            > the site but I'm just not online much lately.
            >
            > Lizzie

            "Shibboleth" comes from Judges 12:6. My condensation of the story:
            The Ammonites were attacking a region of Israel, and God sent a Gileadite
            named Jephthah to take them out. After he came back successful, the
            men of Ephraim, an ethnic subgroup, told Jephthah they were going to
            attack him because they didn't get to go to the battle.

            "Jephthah then called together the men of Gilead and fought against
            Ephraim. The Gileadites struck them down because the Ephraimites had
            said, 'You Gileadites are renegades from Ephraim and Manasseh.' The
            Gileadites captured the fords of the Jordan leading to Ephraim, and
            whenever a survivor of Ephraim siad, 'Let me cross over,' the men of
            Gilead asked him, 'Are you an Ephraimite?' If he replied, 'No,' they
            said, 'All right, say "Shibboleth."' If he said, 'Sibboleth,' because
            he could not pronounce the word correctly, they seized him and killed
            him at the fordes of the Jordan."

            Judges 12:4-6a

            I've long considered this one of the more interesting stories in the Bible.
          • ERATRIANO@aol.com
            Well that damn Shibboleth discussion is very interesting. Thanks, Lizzie
            Message 5 of 7 , Nov 1, 2001
              Well that damn Shibboleth discussion is very interesting.

              Thanks,

              Lizzie
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