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Re: [mythsoc] Recent Suite101 Tolkien/Middle-earth articles

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  • ERATRIANO@aol.com
    In a message dated 10/31/01 12:35:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, michael@xenite.org writes:
    Message 1 of 7 , Oct 31, 2001
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      In a message dated 10/31/01 12:35:53 PM Eastern Standard Time,
      michael@... writes:

      << But there may also be a connection with the much
      later 'Shibboleth of Feanor'. >>

      The what?? And isn't Shibboleth a Hebrew word for something? Sure I'd scope
      the site but I'm just not online much lately.

      Lizzie
    • Michael Martinez
      ... I d scope ... Yes, it is a Hebrew word, used in reference to the distinctions drawn between peoples. The Shibboleth of Feanor is a fairly late essay,
      Message 2 of 7 , Oct 31, 2001
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        --- In mythsoc@y..., ERATRIANO@a... wrote:
        > In a message dated 10/31/01 12:35:53 PM Eastern Standard Time,
        > michael@x... writes:
        >
        > << But there may also be a connection with the much
        > later 'Shibboleth of Feanor'. >>
        >
        > The what?? And isn't Shibboleth a Hebrew word for something? Sure
        I'd scope
        > the site but I'm just not online much lately.

        Yes, it is a Hebrew word, used in reference to the distinctions drawn
        between peoples. "The Shibboleth of Feanor" is a fairly late essay,
        published in THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH, which discusses how a
        controversy over the change in pronunciation of a specific sound
        (which occurred in his mother's name, and is represented by the Thorn
        character, shifting to an S-sound) led to a division of the Noldor
        into two linguistic communities, reflecting the broader division of
        the nation into what might be called two philosophical or political
        communities (although I think that is oversimplification).
      • James P. Robinson III
        I thought that shibboleth referred to a password or secret word originally and, in English, referred to when a proper noun (like an individual s name) had
        Message 3 of 7 , Oct 31, 2001
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          I thought that shibboleth referred to a password or secret word originally
          and, in English, referred to when a proper noun (like an individual's name)
          had become merely a watchword or byword for a particular concept or idea,
          losing the remainder of its individual qualities along the way.

          Jim


          As the clock struck 09:55 PM 10/31/2001 +0000, Michael Martinez took pen in
          hand and wrote:
          >--- In mythsoc@y..., ERATRIANO@a... wrote:
          > > In a message dated 10/31/01 12:35:53 PM Eastern Standard Time,
          > > michael@x... writes:
          > >
          > > << But there may also be a connection with the much
          > > later 'Shibboleth of Feanor'. >>
          > >
          > > The what?? And isn't Shibboleth a Hebrew word for something? Sure
          >I'd scope
          > > the site but I'm just not online much lately.
          >
          >Yes, it is a Hebrew word, used in reference to the distinctions drawn
          >between peoples. "The Shibboleth of Feanor" is a fairly late essay,
          >published in THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH, which discusses how a
          >controversy over the change in pronunciation of a specific sound
          >(which occurred in his mother's name, and is represented by the Thorn
          >character, shifting to an S-sound) led to a division of the Noldor
          >into two linguistic communities, reflecting the broader division of
          >the nation into what might be called two philosophical or political
          >communities (although I think that is oversimplification).
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
          >
          >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

          --
          =================================================
          James P. Robinson III jprobins@...

          All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
          author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with
          an attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
          given in writing.
          =================================================
        • James P. Robinson III
          I should have looked it up before I posted. According to yourdictionary.com: Main Entry: shib.bo.leth Pronunciation: shi-b&-l&th also - leth Function: noun
          Message 4 of 7 , Oct 31, 2001
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            I should have looked it up before I posted. According to yourdictionary.com:

            Main Entry: shib.bo.leth
            Pronunciation: 'shi-b&-l&th also -"leth
            Function: noun
            Etymology: Hebrew shibbOleth stream; from the
            use of this word
            in Judg 12:6 as a test to distinguish
            Gileadites from Ephraimites,
            who pronounced it sibbOleth
            Date: 1638
            1 a : a word or saying used by adherents of a
            party, sect, or belief
            and usually regarded by others as empty of
            real meaning b : a
            widely held belief c : TRUISM, PLATITUDE
            2 a : a use of language regarded as
            distinctive of a particular
            group b : a custom or usage regarded as
            distinguishing one group
            from others




            As the clock struck 09:55 PM 10/31/2001 +0000, Michael Martinez took pen in
            hand and wrote:
            >--- In mythsoc@y..., ERATRIANO@a... wrote:
            > > In a message dated 10/31/01 12:35:53 PM Eastern Standard Time,
            > > michael@x... writes:
            > >
            > > << But there may also be a connection with the much
            > > later 'Shibboleth of Feanor'. >>
            > >
            > > The what?? And isn't Shibboleth a Hebrew word for something? Sure
            >I'd scope
            > > the site but I'm just not online much lately.
            >
            >Yes, it is a Hebrew word, used in reference to the distinctions drawn
            >between peoples. "The Shibboleth of Feanor" is a fairly late essay,
            >published in THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH, which discusses how a
            >controversy over the change in pronunciation of a specific sound
            >(which occurred in his mother's name, and is represented by the Thorn
            >character, shifting to an S-sound) led to a division of the Noldor
            >into two linguistic communities, reflecting the broader division of
            >the nation into what might be called two philosophical or political
            >communities (although I think that is oversimplification).
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
            >
            >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

            --
            =================================================
            James P. Robinson III jprobins@...

            All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
            author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with
            an attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
            given in writing.
            =================================================
          • Juliet Blosser
            ... Shibboleth comes from Judges 12:6. My condensation of the story: The Ammonites were attacking a region of Israel, and God sent a Gileadite named
            Message 5 of 7 , Oct 31, 2001
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              On Wed, Oct 31, 2001 at 02:08:13PM -0500, ERATRIANO@... wrote:
              > In a message dated 10/31/01 12:35:53 PM Eastern Standard Time,
              > michael@... writes:
              >
              > << But there may also be a connection with the much
              > later 'Shibboleth of Feanor'. >>
              >
              > The what?? And isn't Shibboleth a Hebrew word for something? Sure I'd scope
              > the site but I'm just not online much lately.
              >
              > Lizzie

              "Shibboleth" comes from Judges 12:6. My condensation of the story:
              The Ammonites were attacking a region of Israel, and God sent a Gileadite
              named Jephthah to take them out. After he came back successful, the
              men of Ephraim, an ethnic subgroup, told Jephthah they were going to
              attack him because they didn't get to go to the battle.

              "Jephthah then called together the men of Gilead and fought against
              Ephraim. The Gileadites struck them down because the Ephraimites had
              said, 'You Gileadites are renegades from Ephraim and Manasseh.' The
              Gileadites captured the fords of the Jordan leading to Ephraim, and
              whenever a survivor of Ephraim siad, 'Let me cross over,' the men of
              Gilead asked him, 'Are you an Ephraimite?' If he replied, 'No,' they
              said, 'All right, say "Shibboleth."' If he said, 'Sibboleth,' because
              he could not pronounce the word correctly, they seized him and killed
              him at the fordes of the Jordan."

              Judges 12:4-6a

              I've long considered this one of the more interesting stories in the Bible.
            • ERATRIANO@aol.com
              Well that damn Shibboleth discussion is very interesting. Thanks, Lizzie
              Message 6 of 7 , Nov 1, 2001
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                Well that damn Shibboleth discussion is very interesting.

                Thanks,

                Lizzie
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