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Arwen/Aragorn Love Story

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  • NiffMarie@cs.com
    I just finished reading the Arwen/Aragorn love story in the appendix and have a few questions. Where did Men go after death? Did Arwen, having become mortal,
    Message 1 of 6 , Sep 27, 2001
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      I just finished reading the Arwen/Aragorn love story in the appendix and have
      a few questions.

      Where did Men go after death? Did Arwen, having become mortal, also go there
      when she died?

      Why wouldn't all Elves want to go the the Havens earlier? What was the
      significance of waiting a long time to go? What were the Havens, really? Elf
      heaven?

      Why couldn't Arwen take the ship to the Havens? Why did it leave and not come
      back after it took Galadriel, Celeborn, and everyone else? Did Elrond go with
      that group, too?

      ALSO... Do y'all think Liv Tyler was cast well as Arwen? She's sweet, and a
      good actress, and all, but she doesn't quite seem to fit Tolkien's
      description of Arwen. Thoughts?

      Sorry about all the questions, just couldn't figure it out...

      --Niff, infj
      NiffMarie@...
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      "Anyone who has a library and a garden wants for nothing."
      Cicero
    • David S. Bratman
      Niff - Tolkien was a Christian, so where Men go after death in his fiction may be deduced from Christian theology. I think you have the Havens confused with
      Message 2 of 6 , Sep 27, 2001
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        Niff -

        Tolkien was a Christian, so where Men go after death in his fiction may be
        deduced from Christian theology.

        I think you have "the Havens" confused with Elvenhome (Tol Eressea). The
        Grey Havens are the ports on the Gulf of Lhun from which the ships
        sail. Elvenhome is the place beyond the circles of the world (that is, a
        mortal ship sailing in that direction would just go around the world and
        never get there) whence the elven ships sail. More on the geography, and
        why it's a desirable spot, is in The Silmarillion.

        Elves didn't go to the Havens earlier for several reasons. Galadriel, for
        one, had been a rebel and was refused return until she passed the test, in
        her famous scene with Frodo. Others felt responsibility for having messed
        up Middle-earth in the First and Second Ages, and thought they should stay
        around until an end was made of Sauron. Others were just not in a terrible
        hurry: they're immortal, after all.

        Elrond left with the others. Arwen gave up her place, and was made mortal
        by the grace of the Valar; and as she says to Aragorn at the end, "There is
        now no ship that would bear me hence."

        David Bratman
      • NiffMarie@cs.com
        David, Thank you so much for the info. Everything is much clearer now! ... Where would one read about these earlier happenings? Are Galadriel, and the others
        Message 3 of 6 , Sep 27, 2001
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          David,

          Thank you so much for the info. Everything is much clearer now!

          > Elves didn't go to the Havens earlier for several reasons. Galadriel,
          > for
          > one, had been a rebel and was refused return until she passed the test, in
          > her famous scene with Frodo.

          Where would one read about these earlier happenings? Are Galadriel, and the
          others who messed up Middle Earth in a different book?

          > Elrond left with the others. Arwen gave up her place, and was made
          > mortal
          > by the grace of the Valar; and as she says to Aragorn at the end,
          > There is
          > now no ship that would bear me hence.

          So she goes to the same place Aragorn went: Heaven?


          --Niff, infj
          NiffMarie@...
          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          "Anyone who has a library and a garden wants for nothing."
          Cicero
        • David S. Bratman
          Niff - For more information on these matters, start with LOTR s Appendix A. Then note the instruction given there: Of these things the full tale, and much
          Message 4 of 6 , Sep 27, 2001
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            Niff -

            For more information on these matters, start with LOTR's Appendix A. Then
            note the instruction given there: "Of these things the full tale, and much
            else concerning Elves and Men, is told in _The Silmarillion_." Thirdly,
            read _Unfinished Tales_, which tells more still.

            David Bratman
          • Michael Martinez
            ... Tolkien never really told the full story. There are fragments of the Elves history and their reasons for staying in Middle-earth scattered throughout
            Message 5 of 6 , Sep 28, 2001
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              --- In mythsoc@y..., NiffMarie@c... wrote:
              > > Elves didn't go to the Havens earlier for several reasons.
              > > Galadriel, for one, had been a rebel and was refused return
              > > until she passed the test, in her famous scene with Frodo.
              >
              > Where would one read about these earlier happenings? Are Galadriel,
              > and the others who messed up Middle Earth in a different book?

              Tolkien never really told the full story. There are fragments of the
              Elves' history and their reasons for staying in Middle-earth
              scattered throughout various texts, some of which may (for all we
              know) have not yet been published. A wealth of material on
              linguistic resources remains to be published, and often the
              linguistic essays include interesting asides on Elvish history (or
              the histories of other peoples) and/or perspectives.

              I've been trying to answer a lot of these questions for the past
              couple of years at Suite101.Com, where I write a (mostly) weekly
              essay on Tolkien and Middle-earth:

              http://www.suite101.com/welcome.cfm/tolkien

              The essays include a lot of speculation, but I try to provide
              references to sources without seeming too scholarly. Some of the
              more recent essays are still waiting for me to post edits, so there
              are a few typos and goofs which need correction.

              With respect to your specific questions, I recommend the following
              essays (which sometimes ask more questions than they answer):

              "Shhh! It's a secret ring!"
              http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/58090

              "Who knew about the Rings of Power at the end of the Third Age? It
              requires some historical detective work to figure out who knew about
              them in the first place, who learned about them later, and who would
              have been around to forget about them."

              "A history of the Last Alliance of Elves and Men"
              3 parts
              http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/69542
              http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/69544
              http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/70973

              I actually wrote this paper several years ago for the journal ARDA at
              the editor's request, but that planned volume was never published, so
              I finally decide to publish it at Suite101. This is therefore a more
              formal work than the other essays.

              "Moving sale: magic rings and other trinkets, half off"
              http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/54057

              "The Elves of Middle-earth had many regrets. But were they simply
              being materialistic when they grieved for lost treasures, or was
              there something more?"

              "Gil-galad was an Elven-king"
              http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/44954

              "A discussion of Gil-galad's history and genealogy, and the
              importance of The Silmarillion in studying Gil-galad."


              And if you're curious about the Numenorean psyche and why Aragorn's
              people ended up in their mess, you might want to read these essays:

              "Seeking the wayward children of Numenor"
              http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/47755

              "How did Arnor and Gondor come to be, and what were the fundamental
              differences between the characters of the two realms? And what was
              the contribution of Numenor to their founding? A discussion of the
              origins of Arnor and Gondor explores the dynamics of Numenorean
              culture and how it laid the foundation for the two realms in exile."

              "Before the Numenoreans came"
              http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/48204

              "What was Eriador like in the years between the departure of the
              Numenoreans over Sea and their eventual return? We can extrapolate a
              few ideas based on things J.R.R. Tolkien said concerning the history
              of the Dunedain."

              "Have island, will rebel"
              http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/48697

              "Did Numenorean society follow an inevitable path toward division
              because the kings retained, respected, and enlarged autonomous
              traditions? Were the noble families of Numenor able to influence the
              policies of the kings both directly and indirectly? This article
              examines the roots of Numenorean politcal power and the connections
              between that power and the economic forces of the Numenorean
              civilization."

              There are now over 100 articles, so I'm not going to list them all
              here. :)

              A full index is available here:
              http://www.suite101.com/articles.cfm/tolkien

              Hope you find it worth browsing. People don't always agree with my
              arguments and conclusions, but I've gotten pretty good feedback on
              the essays. And you'll at least get an idea of the sorts of things
              to look for as you collect the books and browse them.

              > > Elrond left with the others. Arwen gave up her place, and was
              > > made mortal by the grace of the Valar; and as she says to Aragorn
              > > at the end, There is now no ship that would bear me hence.
              >
              > So she goes to the same place Aragorn went: Heaven?

              That is the implication.
            • NiffMarie@cs.com
              In a message dated 9/28/2001 2:44:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ... Thank you so much for all the links! I will save this also
              Message 6 of 6 , Sep 28, 2001
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                In a message dated 9/28/2001 2:44:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                michael@... writes:

                > Tolkien never really told the full story. There are fragments of the
                > Elves' history and their reasons for staying in Middle-earth
                > scattered throughout various texts, some of which may (for all we
                > know) have not yet been published. A wealth of material on
                > linguistic resources remains to be published, and often the
                > linguistic essays include interesting asides on Elvish history (or
                > the histories of other peoples) and/or perspectives.
                <Clipped many excellent links>

                Thank you so much for all the links! I will save this also for future
                reference and browsing!

                > > So she goes to the same place Aragorn went: Heaven?
                >
                > That is the implication.

                That's very sweet!

                Thanks again!

                --Niff, infj
                NiffMarie@...
                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                "Anyone who has a library and a garden wants for nothing."
                Cicero
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