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Re: [mythsoc] Digest Number 659

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  • stephen@stephen.com
    I don t see any evidence for Michael s young maiden theory. No sign of age don t mean young/virginal/nubile. And Arwen s brothers are specifically
    Message 1 of 4 , Aug 11, 2001
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      I don't see any evidence for Michael's "young maiden" theory. 'No sign of
      age' don't mean young/virginal/nubile. And Arwen's brothers are specifically
      described as "neither young nor old". Cate Blanchett is a reasonable choice
      in my opinion.


      In terms of age, I think Galadriel could be played by Kate Hudson and Goldie
      Hawn, switching from scene to scene. Of course, the giggle wouldn't work so
      well.

      - Stephen
    • Ginger L. Zabel
      My only concern is that Liv Tyler won t be able to pull off the look. Arwen, though age-less, is a woman who has waited years for the man she loves. That
      Message 2 of 4 , Aug 11, 2001
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        My only concern is that Liv Tyler won't be able to pull off the "look."
        Arwen, though age-less, is a woman who has waited years for the man she
        loves. That type of waiting gives a woman a different look about her.
        Liv's large fawn eyes don't exactly give the impression of intelligence,
        wisdom and patience. I agree that Cate Blanchett is a reasonable choice
        for Galadriel, but Liv Tyler looks like a child who would hop into bed the
        minute she fell in love. Hopefully the script will call for the kind of
        maturity that Arwen exhibits in LotR and Liv will be able to somehow come
        up with it.

        Arwen needs the eyes of Judi Dench on a much younger lady. Perhaps noone
        could really satisfy me for that part.

        -Ginger



        --On Saturday, August 11, 2001, 8:14 AM +0000 stephen@... wrote:

        > I don't see any evidence for Michael's "young maiden" theory. 'No sign of
        > age' don't mean young/virginal/nubile. And Arwen's brothers are
        > specifically described as "neither young nor old". Cate Blanchett is a
        > reasonable choice in my opinion.
        >
        >
        > In terms of age, I think Galadriel could be played by Kate Hudson and
        > Goldie Hawn, switching from scene to scene. Of course, the giggle
        > wouldn't work so well.
        >
        > - Stephen
        >
        > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
      • Michael Martinez
        ... sign of ... specifically ... reasonable choice ... Theory, hm? Well, we can begin with Aragorn s chant about Beren and Luthien: As Beren looked into her
        Message 3 of 4 , Aug 12, 2001
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          --- In mythsoc@y..., stephen@s... wrote:
          > I don't see any evidence for Michael's "young maiden" theory. 'No
          sign of
          > age' don't mean young/virginal/nubile. And Arwen's brothers are
          specifically
          > described as "neither young nor old". Cate Blanchett is a
          reasonable choice
          > in my opinion.

          Theory, hm?

          Well, we can begin with Aragorn's chant about Beren and Luthien:

          As Beren looked into her eyes
          Within the shadows of her hair,
          The trembling starlight of the skies
          He saw there mirrored shimmering.
          Tinuviel the elven-fair,
          Immortal maiden elven-wise,
          About him cast her shadowy hair,
          And arms like silver glimmering.

          When Aragorn explains the poem to the Hobbits, he says:

          "...Beren was a mortal man, but Luthien was the daughter of Thingol,
          a King of Elves upon Middle-earth when the world was young; and she
          was the fairest maiden that has ever been among all the children of
          this world...."

          When Legolas tells the Company of the Ring the story of Nimrodel, he
          says:

          "'Do you hear the voice of Nimrodel?' asked Legolas. 'I will sing
          you a song of the maiden Nimrodel, who bore the same name as the
          stream beside which she lived long ago....'"

          When the Company of the Ring meets Celeborn and Galadriel at last,
          Tolkien writes:

          "The chamber was filled with a soft light; its walls were green and
          silver and its roof of gold. Many Elves were seated there. On two
          chairs beneath the bole of the tree and canopied by a living bough
          there sat, side by side, Celeborn and Galadriel. They stood up to
          greet their guests, after the manner of Elves, even those who were
          accounted mighty kings. Very tall they were, and the Lady no less
          tall than the Lord; and they were grave and beautiful. They were clad
          wholly in white; and the hair of the Lady was of deep gold, and the
          hair of the Lord Celeborn was of silver long and bright; but no sign
          of age was upon them, unless it were in the depths of their eyes; for
          these were keen as lances in the starlight, and yet profound, the
          wells of deep memory."

          "No sign of age was upon them". Well, that is not "young maiden",
          and what I wrote was:

          "In the book, both Galadriel and Arwen have the appearance of young
          maidens."

          It may be that I see young maidens because the Elven women described
          before Galadriel were maidens, and she bears "no sign of age", except
          for whatever is in the depths of her eyes.

          She is, of course, described as "fair" and "beautiful" throughout her
          brief appearances.

          Yet, for me, the clincher has always been Elrond's words to Aragorn
          in "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen":

          "'But Elrond saw many things and read many hearts. One day,
          therefore, before the fall of the year he called Aragorn to his
          chamber, and he said: "Aragorn, Arathorn's son, Lord of the Dúnedain,
          listen to me! A great doom awaits you, either to rise above the
          height of all your fathers since the days of Elendil, or to fall into
          darkness with all that is left of your kin. Many years of trial lie
          before you. You shall neither have wife, nor bind any woman to you in
          troth, until your time comes and you are found worthy of it."

          "`Then Aragorn was troubled, and he said: "Can it be that my mother
          has spoken of this?"

          "` "No indeed," said Elrond. "Your own eyes have betrayed you. But I
          do not speak of my daughter alone. You shall be betrothed to no man's
          child as yet. But as for Arwen the Fair, Lady of Imladris and of
          Lórien, Evenstar of her people, she is of lineage greater than yours,
          and she has lived in the world already so long that to her you are
          but as a yearling shoot beside a young birch of many summers. She is
          too far above you. And so, I think, it may well seem to her. But even
          if it were not so, and her heart turned towards you, I should still
          be grieved because of the doom that is laid on us."

          "` "What is that doom?" said Aragorn.

          "' "That so long as I abide here, she shall live with the youth of
          the Eldar," answered Elrond, "and when I depart, she shall go with
          the, if she so chooses."

          I cannot imagine that Galadriel alone should not possess "the youth
          of the Eldar". Aragorn, when he was twenty, thought Arwen was no
          older than he when he first met her:

          "` "No," she said, and looked up at the Mountains that rose in the
          east. "I have dwelt for a time in the land of my mother's kin, in far
          Lothlórien. I have but lately returned to visit my father again. It
          is many years since I walked in Imladris."

          "`Then Aragorn wondered, for she had seemed of no greater age than
          he, who had lived yet no more than a score of years in Middle-earth.
          But Arwen looked in his eyes and said: "Do not wonder! For the
          children of Elrond have the life of the Eldar."

          "`Then Aragorn was abashed, for he saw the elven-light in her eyes
          and the wisdom of many days; yet from that hour he loved Arwen
          Undómiel daughter of Elrond."

          So, a woman of mature years who has retained her beauty, or even
          grown more beautiful (and I think Goldie Hawn certainly looked better
          in the early 90s than in the late 60s, but maybe I'm just starting to
          move on in years) isn't completely out of place. But Tolkien's Elven
          women definitely have "the youth of the Eldar", and may seem like
          very young women to twenty-year-old awestruck men.
        • Michael Martinez
          ... I think I know what you mean, but so far, Liv Tyler has not disappointed me in any the movies I ve seen her in. As for wisdom and intelligence, I
          Message 4 of 4 , Aug 12, 2001
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            --- In mythsoc@y..., "Ginger L. Zabel" <glzabel@u...> wrote:
            > My only concern is that Liv Tyler won't be able to pull off
            > the "look." Arwen, though age-less, is a woman who has waited years
            > for the man she loves. That type of waiting gives a woman a
            > different look about her.

            I think I know what you mean, but so far, Liv Tyler has not
            disappointed me in any the movies I've seen her in. As for wisdom
            and intelligence, I personally do not judge those by eyes but rather
            by ears (ear lobes, to be exact -- but that's an old joke not worth
            explaining), balanced mightily by how one behaves.

            Liv will do just fine by me. Like the Stones used to sing, you can't
            always get what you want. :)
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