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Aman Lost

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  • Steve Schaper
    ... Both Milton and Tolkien were telling the same story, mining the same quarry. ... Same plane as Men, same DNA, different dooming. (or dispensation if you
    Message 1 of 13 , Apr 23, 2001
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      > Message: 3
      > Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 16:00:33 -0400
      > From: wyspergrove@...
      > Subject: Milton and Tolkien.
      >
      > I have a question: Has anyone ever dealt with the similarities between Milton's _Paradise Lost_ and Tolkien's _Silmarillion_?
      >
      > --Kat
      >

      Both Milton and Tolkien were telling the same story, mining the same
      quarry.

      > Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 22:06:35 EDT
      > From: ERATRIANO@...
      > Subject: Re: Hobbits in Hollywood
      >

      >
      > As for the Elves thing, the elves that don't die like seeds to bear fruit, to
      > me they seem in that light to be more or less tragic figures. But I need to
      > read and reread more about the Tolkien mythology. Perhaps they are more like
      > angels... not that they are not fallen (because some fell, right?) but they
      > are just sort of on a different plane of existence from Men.

      Same plane as Men, same DNA, different dooming. (or dispensation if you
      will) Do not fail to read _Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth_ in Morgoth's
      Ring. It will explain a great deal.

      >
      > Lizzie
      >

      =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
      "It is true that if you tell me what you read, I can tell
      you who you are. But I will know you better if you tell
      me what you re-read." -- Francois Mauriac

      http://www.users.qwest.net/~sschaper/
      sschaper@...
      =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
    • ERATRIANO@aol.com
      In a message dated 04/23/01 5:31:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sschaper@USWEST.NET writes:
      Message 2 of 13 , Apr 23, 2001
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        In a message dated 04/23/01 5:31:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
        sschaper@... writes:

        << Do not fail to read _Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth_ in Morgoth's
        Ring. It will explain a great deal. >>

        What is Morgoth's Ring?

        Lizzie
      • David S. Bratman
        ... One of the most interesting of the 12 volumes of the posthumous History of Middle-earth . It consists of material written after LOTR dealing with the
        Message 3 of 13 , Apr 24, 2001
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          At 10:27 PM 4/23/2001 -0400, Lizzie wrote:

          >What is Morgoth's Ring?

          One of the most interesting of the 12 volumes of the posthumous "History of
          Middle-earth". It consists of material written after LOTR dealing with the
          early parts of the Silmarillion saga, Valinor, and the "deep structure" of
          Tolkien's creation.

          David Bratman
        • Margaret Dean
          ... It s Volume Ten, btw, in case that helps in finding it. I agree with David that it s one of the most interesting in the series! --Margaret Dean
          Message 4 of 13 , Apr 24, 2001
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            "David S. Bratman" wrote:
            >
            > At 10:27 PM 4/23/2001 -0400, Lizzie wrote:
            >
            > >What is Morgoth's Ring?
            >
            > One of the most interesting of the 12 volumes of the posthumous "History of
            > Middle-earth". It consists of material written after LOTR dealing with the
            > early parts of the Silmarillion saga, Valinor, and the "deep structure" of
            > Tolkien's creation.

            It's Volume Ten, btw, in case that helps in finding it. I agree
            with David that it's one of the most interesting in the series!


            --Margaret Dean
            <margdean@...>
          • ERATRIANO@aol.com
            In a message dated 04/24/01 10:58:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, margdean@erols.com writes:
            Message 5 of 13 , Apr 24, 2001
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              In a message dated 04/24/01 10:58:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
              margdean@... writes:

              << One of the most interesting of the 12 volumes of the posthumous "History
              of
              > Middle-earth". It consists of material written after LOTR dealing with the
              > early parts of the Silmarillion saga, Valinor, and the "deep structure" of
              > Tolkien's creation.

              It's Volume Ten, btw, in case that helps in finding it. I agree
              with David that it's one of the most interesting in the series! >>

              Okay well I can see I am even further behind in my reading than I thought.
              It's hopeless. :-(

              Lizzie
            • David J. Finnamore
              ... Naw. From what scanning I ve done of the others, I think you can safely give most of them amiss and go directly to Volume Ten - unless you re really
              Message 6 of 13 , Apr 25, 2001
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                Lizzie wrote:

                > margdean@... writes:
                >
                > << One of the most interesting of the 12 volumes of the posthumous "History
                > of
                > > Middle-earth". It consists of material written after LOTR dealing with the
                > > early parts of the Silmarillion saga, Valinor, and the "deep structure" of
                > > Tolkien's creation.
                >
                > It's Volume Ten, btw, in case that helps in finding it. I agree
                > with David that it's one of the most interesting in the series! >>
                >
                > Okay well I can see I am even further behind in my reading than I thought.
                > It's hopeless. :-(

                Naw. From what scanning I've done of the others, I think you can safely give most of them amiss and go directly to Volume Ten - unless you're really interested in all the variants of the stories that Tolkien tried before settling on the final version. I
                find that stuff more confusing than anything. Even parts of the Unfinished Tales, with the several options for the identity of Celeborn and his meeting up with Galadriel, are too much for me.


                > Okay, while I'm on this subject again, here is what I know I have, what else
                > should I look for FIRST? (Primary Tolkien only, I'm not interested in things
                > like Master of Middle Earth at this time, that's a whole 'nother bookshelf,
                > er, box.)
                >
                > Hobbit
                > LoTR
                > Tolkien Reader
                > Silmarillion
                > Lays of Beleriand
                > something else... I forget what; I think a random Lost Tale or some such

                The Unfinished Tales (or the Lost Tales, same material in a different format by a different publisher) is worth working through. I make regular reference to Karen Fonstad's "The Atlas of Middle-earth," Ruth Noel's "The Languages of Tolkien's Middle-earth,"
                and Robert Foster's "The Complete Guide to Middle-earth." All three are invaluable for keeping everything-body-where straight while reading about the histories.

                --
                David J. Finnamore
                Nashville, TN, USA
                http://personal.bna.bellsouth.net/bna/d/f/dfin/index.html
                --
              • Margaret Dean
                ... No it isn t! UNFINISHED TALES is =not= the same as THE BOOK OF LOST TALES (Vol s 1 and 2, which are also the first two books in the History of Middle
                Message 7 of 13 , Apr 25, 2001
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                  "David J. Finnamore" wrote:
                  >
                  > Lizzie wrote:

                  > > Okay, while I'm on this subject again, here is what I know I have, what else
                  > > should I look for FIRST? (Primary Tolkien only, I'm not interested in things
                  > > like Master of Middle Earth at this time, that's a whole 'nother bookshelf,
                  > > er, box.)
                  > >
                  > > Hobbit
                  > > LoTR
                  > > Tolkien Reader
                  > > Silmarillion
                  > > Lays of Beleriand
                  > > something else... I forget what; I think a random Lost Tale or some such
                  >
                  > The Unfinished Tales (or the Lost Tales, same material in a different
                  > format by a different publisher)

                  No it isn't! UNFINISHED TALES is =not= the same as THE BOOK OF
                  LOST TALES (Vol's 1 and 2, which are also the first two books in
                  the History of Middle Earth series).

                  > is worth working through. I make regular reference to Karen Fonstad's
                  > "The Atlas of Middle-earth," Ruth Noel's "The Languages of Tolkien's
                  > Middle-earth,"

                  Ack! Nooo! Noel's book is very, very inaccurate. She simply
                  Doesn't Get It as far as the structure of Tolkien's languages
                  goes. The other two are okay.

                  > and Robert Foster's "The Complete Guide to Middle-earth." All three
                  > are invaluable for keeping everything-body-where straight while reading
                  > about the histories.


                  --Margaret Dean
                  <margdean@...>
                • Steve Dufour
                  Deserves death! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give that to them? Then be not too eager to deal out
                  Message 8 of 13 , Apr 25, 2001
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                    "Deserves death! I daresay he does. Many that live
                    deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you
                    give that to them?
                    Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of
                    justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise
                    cannot see all ends." -Gandalf about Gollum

                    "He was great once, of a noble kind that we should not
                    dare to raise our hands against. He is fallen, and
                    his cure is beyond us; but I would still spare him, in
                    the hope that he may find it." -Frodo about Saruman

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                  • David J. Finnamore
                    ... Really?! Looking through the ToC (which, I admit, is all I ve done) it appears to be mostly same chapter titles in a different order. Well, a trip to
                    Message 9 of 13 , Apr 26, 2001
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                      Margaret Dean wrote:

                      > No it isn't! UNFINISHED TALES is =not= the same as THE BOOK OF
                      > LOST TALES (Vol's 1 and 2, which are also the first two books in
                      > the History of Middle Earth series).

                      Really?! Looking through the ToC (which, I admit, is all I've done) it appears to be mostly same chapter titles in a different order. Well, a trip to Amazon is in my near future, I see. My apologies, and thanks for the correction.


                      > Ack! Nooo! Noel's book is very, very inaccurate. She simply
                      > Doesn't Get It as far as the structure of Tolkien's languages
                      > goes.

                      Oh, dear. Inaccurate in word definitions, too, or only structure? I tend to use it pretty much as a concordance, so far. Do you, or does anyone on the list, have a substitute recommendation? This is good timing since I'm about to dive into really learning
                      Sindarin and relearning the Elvish script. Any hints/tips/suggestions welcome.

                      Thanks!

                      --
                      David J. Finnamore
                      Nashville, TN, USA
                      http://personal.bna.bellsouth.net/bna/d/f/dfin/index.html
                      --
                    • ERATRIANO@aol.com
                      In a message dated 04/25/01 12:52:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, daeron@bellsouth.net writes:
                      Message 10 of 13 , Apr 26, 2001
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                        In a message dated 04/25/01 12:52:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                        daeron@... writes:

                        << I make regular reference to Karen Fonstad's "The Atlas of Middle-earth,"
                        Ruth Noel's "The Languages of Tolkien's Middle-earth,"
                        and Robert Foster's "The Complete Guide to Middle-earth." All three are
                        invaluable for keeping everything-body-where straight while reading about the
                        histories. >>

                        Okay so far as the who's who stuff goes, isn't that all in the appendices of
                        the Tolkien works themselves? Glossaries and things?

                        Actually I do have one book of Letters, or my dad does, the Father Christmas
                        Letters. Boy that's a good one. ggg

                        Lizzie
                      • WendellWag@aol.com
                        In a message dated 4/26/01 1:20:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ... Look at the following website: http://www.elvish.org/resources.html This has many suggestions
                        Message 11 of 13 , Apr 29, 2001
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                          In a message dated 4/26/01 1:20:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                          daeron@... writes:


                          > Oh, dear. Inaccurate in word definitions, too, or only structure? I tend
                          > to use it pretty much as a concordance, so far. Do you, or does anyone on
                          > the list, have a substitute recommendation? This is good timing since I'm
                          > about to dive into really learning
                          > Sindarin and relearning the Elvish script. Any hints/tips/suggestions
                          > welcome.
                          >
                          >

                          Look at the following website:

                          http://www.elvish.org/resources.html

                          This has many suggestions as about learning Tolkien's invented languages. It
                          contains this page:

                          http://www.elvish.org/articles/LRH.html

                          which explains the problems with the Ruth Noel book.

                          Wendell Wagner


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • David J. Finnamore
                          ... Not in as much detail. Nor all in one place, in alphabetical order, with cross references. -- David J. Finnamore Nashville, TN, USA
                          Message 12 of 13 , Apr 29, 2001
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                            Lizzie wrote:

                            > Okay so far as the who's who stuff goes, isn't that all in the appendices of
                            > the Tolkien works themselves? Glossaries and things?

                            Not in as much detail. Nor all in one place, in alphabetical order, with cross references.

                            --
                            David J. Finnamore
                            Nashville, TN, USA
                            http://personal.bna.bellsouth.net/bna/d/f/dfin/index.html
                            --
                          • David J. Finnamore
                            ... Thanks! Very enlightening. -- David J. Finnamore Nashville, TN, USA http://personal.bna.bellsouth.net/bna/d/f/dfin/index.html --
                            Message 13 of 13 , Apr 30, 2001
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                              Wendell Wagner wrote:

                              > Look at the following website:
                              >
                              > http://www.elvish.org/resources.html
                              >
                              > This has many suggestions as about learning Tolkien's invented languages. It
                              > contains this page:
                              >
                              > http://www.elvish.org/articles/LRH.html
                              >
                              > which explains the problems with the Ruth Noel book.

                              Thanks! Very enlightening.

                              --
                              David J. Finnamore
                              Nashville, TN, USA
                              http://personal.bna.bellsouth.net/bna/d/f/dfin/index.html
                              --
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