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GKC's Voice

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  • Stolzi@aol.com
    May be heard here http://www1.jcu.edu/library/gkw/cv.htm I enjoyed it. Mary S
    Message 1 of 14 , Apr 18, 2001
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      May be heard here

      http://www1.jcu.edu/library/gkw/cv.htm

      I enjoyed it.

      Mary S
    • Steve Dufour
      This might be an interesting discussion question. Jesus said about his own impending death, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into
      Message 2 of 14 , Apr 18, 2001
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        This might be an interesting discussion question.

        Jesus said about his own impending death, "Verily,
        verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall
        into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it
        die, it bringeth forth much fruit."

        In light of that what do you think about Tolkien's
        Elves?

        Steve Dufour





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      • David J. Finnamore
        ... I think the purpose of Elvish immortality in M.e. literature is to awaken in the reader the perennial human longing for the immortality we had before the
        Message 3 of 14 , Apr 23, 2001
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          Steve Dufour wrote:

          > Jesus said about his own impending death, "Verily,
          > verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall
          > into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it
          > die, it bringeth forth much fruit."
          >
          > In light of that what do you think about Tolkien's
          > Elves?

          I think the purpose of Elvish immortality in M.e. literature is to awaken in the reader the perennial human longing for the immortality we
          had before the fall (in the view of the author, of course). That, in itself, is a good thing, IMO. Jesus' riddle applies to Man's
          situation after the fall. Within the context of M.e. mythology, there is no contradiction in the facts of the Elves' fallen state and
          their immortality - their fate is simply different from that of Men.

          I think Lizzie is on to something:

          > As for the Elves thing, the elves that don't die like seeds to bear fruit, to
          > me they seem in that light to be more or less tragic figures. But I need to
          > read and reread more about the Tolkien mythology. Perhaps they are more like
          > angels... not that they are not fallen (because some fell, right?) but they
          > are just sort of on a different plane of existence from Men.

          There is a tragic element to their immortality. They become weary of the world and long to leave it for the next, more so as the "magic"
          of creation slowly fades into the "mundane," with the passing of the age of Elves into the age of Men. Their immortality becomes a burden
          rather than a blessing. (Yet for myself I say, "Oh, please! Can't I face just a little bit of the peril?" :-) I wouldn't compare them to
          angels - that comparison is more fit for the Ainur, even though those who became the Valar are more like Greek or Sumerian gods than
          Biblical angels. OTOH, if you mean the syncretistic fairy-angels of medieval Western Christianity, that might be closer to the mark?
          Maybe not too much closer.

          --
          David J. Finnamore
          Nashville, TN, USA
          http://personal.bna.bellsouth.net/bna/d/f/dfin/index.html
          --
        • ERATRIANO@aol.com
          In a message dated 04/23/01 11:50:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, daeron@bellsouth.net writes:
          Message 4 of 14 , Apr 24, 2001
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            In a message dated 04/23/01 11:50:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
            daeron@... writes:

            << There is a tragic element to their immortality. They become weary of the
            world and long to leave it for the next, more so as the "magic" of creation
            slowly fades into the "mundane," with the passing of the age of Elves into
            the age of Men. Their immortality becomes a burden rather than a blessing.
            (Yet for myself I say, "Oh, please! Can't I face just a little bit of the
            peril?" :-) I wouldn't compare them to angels - that comparison is more fit
            for the Ainur, even though those who became the Valar are more like Greek or
            Sumerian gods than Biblical angels. OTOH, if you mean the syncretistic
            fairy-angels of medieval Western Christianity, that might be closer to the
            mark? Maybe not too much closer. >>

            No, I was just hastily casting about for something to liken them to. I agree
            with your statement, that is about what I think too. I guess I meant Milton
            type angels. And I couldn't remember what happens to the Elves. They go to
            the Grey Havens, or something? And someplace beyond, in the West? I know it
            is clarified in Silmarillion and elsewhere, but it has been too long.

            Okay, while I'm on this subject again, here is what I know I have, what else
            should I look for FIRST? (Primary Tolkien only, I'm not interested in things
            like Master of Middle Earth at this time, that's a whole 'nother bookshelf,
            er, box.)

            Hobbit
            LoTR
            Tolkien Reader
            Silmarillion
            Lays of Beleriand
            something else... I forget what; I think a random Lost Tale or some such

            Lizzie
          • WendellWag@aol.com
            Message 5 of 14 , Apr 25, 2001
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            • Margaret Dean
              ... I d second Wendell s recommendation of the Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien. They are fascinating (and give a lot of additional information and insight about his
              Message 6 of 14 , Apr 25, 2001
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                WendellWag@... wrote:
                >
                > You've certainly covered the basics. Start slowly working through the rest
                > of Tolkien's works. I would recommend reading Tolkien's letters and a
                > biography before tackling the History of Middle Earth (the 12-volume series
                > of Christopher Tolkien's editing of Tolkien's works). As Steve says, you
                > have several years of interesting reading before you.

                I'd second Wendell's recommendation of the Letters of J.R.R.
                Tolkien. They are fascinating (and give a lot of additional
                information and insight about his books). Even better, I
                understand there is a new edition out with a BETTER INDEX.
                Believe me, I've been tempted . . .


                --Margaret Dean
                <margdean@...>
              • WendellWag@aol.com
                In a message dated 4/24/01 6:04:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ... What have you read so far? This will give us an idea what to tell you to read next. Wendell
                Message 7 of 14 , Apr 25, 2001
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                  In a message dated 4/24/01 6:04:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                  ERATRIANO@... writes:


                  > Okay, while I'm on this subject again, here is what I know I have, what else
                  > should I look for FIRST? (Primary Tolkien only, I'm not interested in
                  > things
                  > like Master of Middle Earth at this time, that's a whole 'nother bookshelf,
                  > er, box.)
                  >
                  > Hobbit
                  > LoTR
                  > Tolkien Reader
                  > Silmarillion
                  > Lays of Beleriand
                  > something else... I forget what; I think a random Lost Tale or some such

                  What have you read so far? This will give us an idea what to tell you to
                  read next.

                  Wendell Wagner


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • ERATRIANO@aol.com
                  In a message dated 04/25/01 10:24:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, WendellWag@aol.com writes:
                  Message 8 of 14 , Apr 25, 2001
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                    In a message dated 04/25/01 10:24:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
                    WendellWag@... writes:

                    << Hobbit
                    > LoTR
                    > Tolkien Reader
                    > Silmarillion
                    > Lays of Beleriand
                    > something else... I forget what; I think a random Lost Tale or some such

                    What have you read so far? This will give us an idea what to tell you to
                    read next.
                    >>

                    Of the above? All of it except Beleriand. And other things, but so far in
                    the past that they would need to be reread anyway. Outside of that...
                    Williams Arthuriad and some/many? novels, some Chesterton, Narnia of course,
                    Surprised by Joy, uhm, getting off course here. Egil's Saga, the Kalevala,
                    Mahabharata (sp) and Ramayana (need to reread all of those anyway). I would
                    like to read the Heaney Beowulf. Silmarillion was love at first bite, even
                    back in 1981 I guess it was. Ouroboros I liked, but Fish Dinner I couldn't
                    get into. Morris' titles, I think they are Well at the World's End and the
                    Wood, uhm, I forget the name of the one about the wood. It has been a dozen
                    years or more and I can't remember things now, but I do like that area, the
                    realm of mythic fiction recently created, and of the older stuff both
                    recently reworked and traditional. Such as the various Mabinogi and yes even
                    John and Caitlin Matthews' works! And, obviously, I am NOT either a serious
                    scholar or a serious person, unlike some people here, ahem... ;-)

                    Lizzie
                  • WendellWag@aol.com
                    You ve certainly covered the basics. Start slowly working through the rest of Tolkien s works. I would recommend reading Tolkien s letters and a biography
                    Message 9 of 14 , Apr 25, 2001
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                      You've certainly covered the basics. Start slowly working through the rest
                      of Tolkien's works. I would recommend reading Tolkien's letters and a
                      biography before tackling the History of Middle Earth (the 12-volume series
                      of Christopher Tolkien's editing of Tolkien's works). As Steve says, you
                      have several years of interesting reading before you.

                      Wendell Wagner


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • David S. Bratman
                      ... There is indeed. I reviewed this new edition in a recent _Mythprint_. It is softcover, the only edition of the work currently in print in the US, ISBN
                      Message 10 of 14 , Apr 25, 2001
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                        At 07:22 AM 4/25/2001 , Margaret Dean wrote:

                        >I'd second Wendell's recommendation of the Letters of J.R.R.
                        >Tolkien. They are fascinating (and give a lot of additional
                        >information and insight about his books). Even better, I
                        >understand there is a new edition out with a BETTER INDEX.
                        >Believe me, I've been tempted . . .

                        There is indeed. I reviewed this new edition in a recent _Mythprint_. It
                        is softcover, the only edition of the work currently in print in the US,
                        ISBN 0618056998. The new index is by Christina Scull and Wayne G. Hammond,
                        so you know it'll be careful and thorough. The rest of the book is
                        otherwise unchanged, but if you've ever been frustrated by trying to use
                        the old index in earlier editions, this reissue will be worthwhile.

                        David Bratman
                      • ERATRIANO@aol.com
                        In a message dated 04/25/01 11:00:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, WendellWag@aol.com writes:
                        Message 11 of 14 , Apr 25, 2001
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                          In a message dated 04/25/01 11:00:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
                          WendellWag@... writes:

                          << I would recommend reading Tolkien's letters and a
                          biography before tackling the History of Middle Earth (the 12-volume series
                          of Christopher Tolkien's editing of Tolkien's works). As Steve says, you
                          have several years of interesting reading before you. >>

                          Yeah, hm, actually I did read a bio, it was interesting too. That's when I
                          learned about his So. African childhood. I could do to reread it though. I
                          am not much for reading letters except in context, though. But then
                          Margaret said:

                          << I'd second Wendell's recommendation of the Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien.
                          They are fascinating (and give a lot of additional information and insight
                          about his books). Even better, I understand there is a new edition out with
                          a BETTER INDEX.
                          Believe me, I've been tempted . . .>>

                          So I guess I should ask about that version?

                          I hope I have a lifetime of interesting reading ahead of me, everything has
                          just fallen apart reading-wise since I had kids. And my books have been in
                          boxes since I moved out from my parents' house. whine, whine....

                          I think I haven't really read something until I've reread it, rereading being
                          something I always took for granted (along with reading time).

                          Lizzie
                        • Trudy Shaw
                          I d second Wendell s recommendation of the Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien. They are fascinating (and give a lot of additional information and insight about his
                          Message 12 of 14 , Apr 26, 2001
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                            I'd second Wendell's recommendation of the Letters of J.R.R.
                            Tolkien. They are fascinating (and give a lot of additional
                            information and insight about his books). Even better, I
                            understand there is a new edition out with a BETTER INDEX.
                            Believe me, I've been tempted . . .


                            --Margaret Dean
                            <margdean@...>


                            I have a copy of the new edition of the Letters. I don't know _how_ different the indices are, but I've been able to use the new one to good effect. The edition's also available in trade paperback, which will hopefully make it available to more readers (I've been recommending it to a number of young people starting to realize there's more to LotR than battles and magic).

                            For me, the best thing about the new edition coming out was that I could buy my _own_, instead of checking the sole copy out of the library, renewing it, returning it, checking it out, renewing it... (I was tempted at times to tell the library I'd lost it, and just pay for the book, but then nobody else would have had a chance to use it--if they could grab it between my check-outs.)

                            --Trudy Shaw


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                          • WendellWag@aol.com
                            Lizzie, As far as recommendations about what to read next, do you know about David Bratman s bibliography page?: http://www.mythsoc.org/inklings.html A useful
                            Message 13 of 14 , Apr 28, 2001
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                              Lizzie,

                              As far as recommendations about what to read next, do you know about David
                              Bratman's bibliography page?:

                              http://www.mythsoc.org/inklings.html

                              A useful guide to the works of the Inklings.

                              In a message dated 4/25/01 10:43:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
                              ERATRIANO@... writes:

                              > And, obviously, I am NOT either a serious
                              >

                              Oh, please, you're as well read as most of the people here. No need to claim
                              false modesty here. Hardly any of us do this professionally. We're all just
                              fans.

                              Wendell Wagner


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • WendellWag@aol.com
                              In a message dated 4/28/01 11:22:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ... Wendell Wagner [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              Message 14 of 14 , Apr 28, 2001
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                                In a message dated 4/28/01 11:22:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
                                WendellWag@... writes:


                                > In a message dated 4/25/01 10:43:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
                                > ERATRIANO@... writes:
                                >
                                > > And, obviously, I am NOT either a serious
                                > >
                                >
                                >

                                It did it again. It cut off what I was quoting. What I meant to quote was:

                                > And, obviously, I am NOT either a serious scholar or a serious
                                > person, unlike some people here, ahem... ;-)

                                Wendell Wagner


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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