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Re: [mythsoc] Charles Williams

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  • Ted Sherman
    Get a copy of Williams s The Image of the City and Other Essays, edited (if I remember correctly) by Anne Ridler. It contains an essay or two on Williams s
    Message 1 of 25 , Feb 5, 2001
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      Get a copy of Williams's "The Image of the City and Other Essays," edited
      (if I remember correctly) by Anne Ridler. It contains an essay or two on
      Williams's notions of substitution, exchange, and coinherence. There're also
      numerous books on Williams's theology, though the titles escape me at the
      present.

      Ted

      corneliaskitchen@... wrote:

      > I have long been a fan of Lewis and Tolkien, but I have only
      > recently been introduced to Charles Williams. I started with _The
      > Place of the Lion_, then _War in Heaven_ , and I just finished
      > _Descent into Hell_. His novels are unlike anything else I have
      > read before.
      >
      > I am particularly interested in his idea that people can, quite
      > literally, bear each other's burdens. (The Doctrine of Substituted
      > Love, Chapter 6 of _Descent into Hell_) I would like to know if
      > Charles Williams wrote about this idea elsewhere, and if earlier
      > or later writers have dealt with it also. (I seem to remember
      > reading that C.S. Lewis once took his wife's pain in this way...)
      >
      > Thanks in advance.
      >
      > Cornelia Penner
      > Montreal, Quebec, Canada
      >
      >
      > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org

      --
      Dr. Theodore James Sherman, Editor
      Mythlore: A Journal of J. R. R. Tolkien, C. S. Lewis, Charles Williams, and
      Mythopoeic Literature
      Associate Professor of English
      Box X041, Middle Tennessee State University
      Murfreesboro, TN 37132
      615 898-5836 Office
      615 898-5098 FAX
      tsherman@...
    • ERATRIANO@aol.com
      In a message dated 02/05/2001 10:03:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, hood@marshall.edu writes:
      Message 2 of 25 , Feb 5, 2001
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        In a message dated 02/05/2001 10:03:07 AM Eastern Standard Time,
        hood@... writes:

        << This idea about people "literally bearing each other's burdens" is also in
        _All Hallows Eve_, by Charles Williams. Likewise it seems to appear in
        _Till We Have Faces_ by C. S. Lewis. I am not a Williams scholar and can't
        give a history of the concept as Williams develops it, but my impression is
        that he uses it quite a lot. >>

        Some of this is pretty, what is the word? orthodox prayer stuff. Words may
        be failing me but the mechanism is familiar just from years of being an
        Episcopalian. Maybe I've just been lucky in the people and writings and use
        of the prayer book... anyway, some of the answers you are looking for may be
        tracked down through a seminarian or other, more religious, connection.

        Lizzie, inchoate as usual
      • David S. Bratman
        ... Here are some books on Williams s theology. (Look in a university library for these.) Cavaliero, Glen. _Charles Williams, Poet of Theology._ Eerdmans,
        Message 3 of 25 , Feb 5, 2001
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          At 07:20 AM 2/5/2001 , Ted Sherman wrote:

          >Get a copy of Williams's "The Image of the City and Other Essays," edited
          >(if I remember correctly) by Anne Ridler. It contains an essay or two on
          >Williams's notions of substitution, exchange, and coinherence. There're also
          >numerous books on Williams's theology, though the titles escape me at the
          >present.

          Here are some books on Williams's theology. (Look in a university library
          for these.)

          Cavaliero, Glen. _Charles Williams, Poet of Theology._ Eerdmans, 1983.

          Shideler, Mary McDermott. _The Theology of Romantic Love._ Harper, 1962.

          Weeks, Dennis L. _Steps Toward Salvation._ Lang, 1991.


          David Bratman
        • Grace E. Funk
          To Cornelia Penner re Charles Williams co-inherence. Someone will refer you to Lewis biographies/ autobiographical writings. I suggest you discover the works
          Message 4 of 25 , Feb 7, 2001
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            To Cornelia Penner re Charles Williams' co-inherence. Someone will refer
            you to Lewis' biographies/ autobiographical writings. I suggest you
            discover the works of Elizabeth Gouge, and in particular "The Heart of
            the Family". There are several examples, as: "He did not know what he
            had given the child - the freedom from pain that he might have had in
            his last moments, perhaps, to give her lifelong freedom from some shape
            of fear which haunted her..." One of the characters sends his "peace" to
            another, and receives in return a burden of fatigue and fear and
            despair. Grace.


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Croft, Janet B
            Might it be worth nominating for our awards, even though we haven t seen it yet? I guess it s not likely to get to you before tomorrow s deadline. Janet Janet
            Message 5 of 25 , Feb 27, 2003
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              Might it be worth nominating for our awards, even though we haven't seen it
              yet? I guess it's not likely to get to you before tomorrow's deadline.

              Janet



              Janet Brennan Croft
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              -----Original Message-----
              From: jchristopher@... [mailto:jchristopher@...]
              Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 10:13 AM
              To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [mythsoc] Charles Williams


              My copy of _The Detective Fiction Reviews_ was just shipped by Amazon.com
              according to an email, so the book is now available.

              --Joe



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            • jchristopher@tarleton.edu
              My copy of _The Detective Fiction Reviews_ was just shipped by Amazon.com according to an email, so the book is now available. --Joe
              Message 6 of 25 , Feb 27, 2003
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                My copy of _The Detective Fiction Reviews_ was just shipped by Amazon.com
                according to an email, so the book is now available.

                --Joe
              • David S. Bratman
                It s a 2003 book, so it wouldn t be eligible. By our 3-year eligibility period for scholarship, it would be eligible in 2004-06, so don t worry about missing
                Message 7 of 25 , Feb 27, 2003
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                  It's a 2003 book, so it wouldn't be eligible. By our 3-year eligibility
                  period for scholarship, it would be eligible in 2004-06, so don't worry
                  about missing the boat.

                  But remember, this is an Inklings scholarship award, so you'd be nominating
                  the book for the quality of Jared Lobdell's editing and supplementary
                  material, not for the value of having Williams's texts reprinted. The only
                  such books that have ever won the MFA are Doug Anderson's _Annotated
                  Hobbit_ and Christina Scull & Wayne Hammond's _Roverandom_, so our
                  standards for such work are pretty high. Digging out rare material,
                  dressing it up, and publishing it, are worthy acts, but perhaps one needs
                  to do more than that to deserve an MSA. (Mind you, I haven't seen the book
                  so I don't know how much Jared actually did.)

                  - David Bratman

                  At 08:08 AM 2/27/2003 , Janet wrote:
                  >Might it be worth nominating for our awards, even though we haven't seen it
                  >yet? I guess it's not likely to get to you before tomorrow's deadline.
                  >
                  >-----Original Message-----
                  >From: jchristopher@... [mailto:jchristopher@...]
                  >
                  >My copy of _The Detective Fiction Reviews_ was just shipped by Amazon.com
                  >according to an email, so the book is now available.
                • Croft, Janet B
                  D oh -- right, it is a 2003 book and not eligible this year. Well, let s hope it s a good job of editing for the sake of Williams scholarship, and keep it in
                  Message 8 of 25 , Feb 27, 2003
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                    D'oh -- right, it is a 2003 book and not eligible this year. Well, let's
                    hope it's a good job of editing for the sake of Williams scholarship, and
                    keep it in mind for next year, then, if Lobdell did substantial work on it..

                    Janet

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: David S. Bratman [mailto:dbratman@...]
                    Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 11:02 AM
                    To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [mythsoc] Charles Williams


                    It's a 2003 book, so it wouldn't be eligible. By our 3-year eligibility
                    period for scholarship, it would be eligible in 2004-06, so don't worry
                    about missing the boat.

                    But remember, this is an Inklings scholarship award, so you'd be nominating
                    the book for the quality of Jared Lobdell's editing and supplementary
                    material, not for the value of having Williams's texts reprinted. The only
                    such books that have ever won the MFA are Doug Anderson's _Annotated
                    Hobbit_ and Christina Scull & Wayne Hammond's _Roverandom_, so our
                    standards for such work are pretty high. Digging out rare material,
                    dressing it up, and publishing it, are worthy acts, but perhaps one needs
                    to do more than that to deserve an MSA. (Mind you, I haven't seen the book
                    so I don't know how much Jared actually did.)

                    - David Bratman

                    At 08:08 AM 2/27/2003 , Janet wrote:
                    >Might it be worth nominating for our awards, even though we haven't seen it
                    >yet? I guess it's not likely to get to you before tomorrow's deadline.
                    >
                    >-----Original Message-----
                    >From: jchristopher@... [mailto:jchristopher@...]
                    >
                    >My copy of _The Detective Fiction Reviews_ was just shipped by Amazon.com
                    >according to an email, so the book is now available.



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                  • pegasus48124
                    I ve never had the pleasure of discovering the works of Charles Williams. Can someone recommend a good starting point? Mike Ethier (new member)
                    Message 9 of 25 , Aug 9, 2004
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                      I've never had the pleasure of discovering the works of Charles
                      Williams. Can someone recommend a good starting point?
                      Mike Ethier (new member)
                    • dianejoy@earthlink.net
                      *The Place of the Lion* is probably the most accessible of his works, though I also enjoyed *The Greater Trumps.* ---djb ... From: pegasus48124
                      Message 10 of 25 , Aug 9, 2004
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                        *The Place of the Lion* is probably the most accessible of his works,
                        though I also enjoyed *The Greater Trumps.* ---djb

                        Original Message:
                        -----------------
                        From: pegasus48124 pegasus48124@...
                        Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 17:09:42 -0000
                        To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [mythsoc] Charles Williams


                        I've never had the pleasure of discovering the works of Charles
                        Williams. Can someone recommend a good starting point?
                        Mike Ethier (new member)




                        The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
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                      • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                        I really, really loved his Arthurian poems. In my opinion, there is no shame in reading them right along with a guide, say, CSLewis essays that are bound
                        Message 11 of 25 , Aug 9, 2004
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                          I really, really loved his Arthurian poems. In my opinion, there is no
                          shame in reading them right along with a guide, say, CSLewis' essays that
                          are bound with them in the Erdman volume, or some other. It makes them
                          that much more real. The novels are good too, but I think the poems are
                          better, more creative genius really.

                          I thought the URL at amazon was too long, here is a title:

                          Taliessin through Logres [and] The region of the summer stars,
                          by Charles Williams
                          (out of print, Erdman's publisher)

                          There are several copies at abebooks, search under
                          Taliessin
                          for Taliessin through Logres


                          This is Grail/Arthurian stuff. The novels treat of various supernatural
                          and Christian themes. If you have a favorite theme you are hankering
                          after, you might like to pick a first that way (Tarot, etc.).

                          For general info about the poems, google
                          Charles Williams Arthuriad
                          and take your pick.

                          Lizzie

                          Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                          lizziewriter@...
                          amor vincit omnia
                          *** Do visit www.groups.yahoo.com/group/DollsandArts ***
                        • Joan Marie Verba
                          Try The Masques of Amen House, available from the Mythopoeic Press at www.mythsoc.com. (In the interest of full disclosure, I was part of the team that
                          Message 12 of 25 , Aug 9, 2004
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                            Try The Masques of Amen House, available from the Mythopoeic Press at
                            www.mythsoc.com. (In the interest of full disclosure, I was part of the
                            team that published it. But I wouldn't have unless I thought it was a
                            worthwhile title.)

                            Joan
                            ******************************************
                            Joan Marie Verba
                            verba001@...
                            http://www.sff.net/people/Joan.Marie.Verba
                          • Stolzi
                            For me, the most accessible of the novels is War in Heaven. The poetry is NOT a good starting point. Diamond Proudbrook
                            Message 13 of 25 , Aug 9, 2004
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                              For me, the most accessible of the novels is "War in Heaven."

                              The poetry is NOT a good starting point.

                              Diamond Proudbrook
                            • jamcconney@aol.com
                              I agree with Diamond P. I started with War in Heaven and think it is the most accessible. My favorite is Descent into Hell (though I consider it structurally
                              Message 14 of 25 , Aug 9, 2004
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                                I agree with Diamond P. I started with War in Heaven and think it is the
                                most accessible. My favorite is Descent into Hell (though I consider it
                                structurally flawed) but it's probably not the one to start with (when you're ready
                                for it, it will lift you right off the chair). Also like The Greater Trumps
                                and All Hallows Eve, but never really got with The Place of the Lion.

                                I rather imagine we're all going to be widely separated on our favorites
                                (and un-favorites).

                                Anne


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Mari Dole
                                Yes, I agree, and the first sentence is a classic. Mari ... From: Stolzi [mailto:Stolzi@comcast.net] Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 2:24 PM To:
                                Message 15 of 25 , Aug 9, 2004
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                                  Yes, I agree, and the first sentence is a classic.

                                  Mari



                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: Stolzi [mailto:Stolzi@...]
                                  Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 2:24 PM
                                  To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Charles Williams


                                  For me, the most accessible of the novels is "War in Heaven."

                                  The poetry is NOT a good starting point.

                                  Diamond Proudbrook




                                  The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                                • Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                                  Oh, I hope someone speaks up in defense of the Arthuriad overnight tonight. Or I will have to raise a fuss tomorrow. sleep tight, Lizzie Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Aug 9, 2004
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                                    Oh, I hope someone speaks up in defense of the Arthuriad overnight tonight.
                                    Or I will have to raise a fuss tomorrow.

                                    sleep tight,

                                    Lizzie

                                    Elizabeth Apgar Triano
                                    lizziewriter@...
                                    amor vincit omnia
                                    *** Do visit www.groups.yahoo.com/group/DollsandArts ***
                                  • Stolzi
                                    Thomas Howard has an online article on the no. 3 Inkling : http://tinyurl.com/5jske or go to http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=17-10-033-f
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Dec 1, 2004
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                                      Thomas Howard has an online article on the "no. 3 Inkling":

                                      http://tinyurl.com/5jske

                                      or go to

                                      http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=17-10-033-f

                                      There's a wonderful line in here

                                      ' Williams unfailingly leads us all on what George Eliot called "a severe
                                      mental scamper." '

                                      I'm including a copy to Wingfold because part-way down Howard reaches the
                                      question of GMD, Hell, and Heaven.


                                      Diamond Proudbrook
                                    • David Bratman
                                      ... This is quite interesting, and entertaining. Howard is the Tom Shippey of Williams studies. On the difficulty of Williams s style, I cherish a review he
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Dec 1, 2004
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                                        At 04:21 PM 12/1/2004 -0600, Stolzi wrote:

                                        >Thomas Howard has an online article on the "no. 3 Inkling":

                                        This is quite interesting, and entertaining. Howard is the Tom Shippey of
                                        Williams studies.

                                        On the difficulty of Williams's style, I cherish a review he wrote of
                                        Lewis's "Problem of Pain", which begins:

                                        "I shall not attempt to summarize here an already compact book. Mr.
                                        Lewis's prose is known, and those who know it would not thank me for
                                        translating it into mine."

                                        David Bratman
                                      • John Davis
                                        Hi, (Not sure if this is off-topic of not - if so, many apologies...) Does anyone know of any other authors who write in a similar vein to Charles Williams?
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Feb 16, 2009
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                                          Hi,

                                          (Not sure if this is off-topic of not - if so, many apologies...)

                                          Does anyone know of any other authors who write in a similar vein to Charles Williams? Aside from Lewis' 'Hideous Strength', I don't know of any, which makes coming to the end of the last two of Williams' books rather sad...

                                          John

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                                        • Berni Phillips
                                          You might enjoy the books of Tim Powers. His _Declare_ is the novel which most shows his Christianity. (He s a Catholic Christian.) All of his novels are
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Feb 16, 2009
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                                            You might enjoy the books of Tim Powers. His _Declare_ is the novel which
                                            most shows his Christianity. (He's a Catholic Christian.) All of his
                                            novels are good. Also James Blaylock's novels might be your cup of tea,
                                            particularly _The Paper Grail_.

                                            Berni

                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: "John Davis" <john@...>

                                            > Does anyone know of any other authors who write in a similar vein to
                                            > Charles Williams? Aside from Lewis' 'Hideous Strength', I don't know of
                                            > any, which makes coming to the end of the last two of Williams' books
                                            > rather sad...
                                            >
                                            > John
                                          • John Davis
                                            Hi Berni, Thanks for that - I ll give them a try. Although it is probably the non-Christian elements of Williams books that most appeal to me, which is to say
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Feb 17, 2009
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                                              Hi Berni,

                                              Thanks for that - I'll give them a try.

                                              Although it is probably the non-Christian elements of Williams' books that most appeal to me, which is to say that they often seem more spiritual than Christian - the emphasis being on morality rather than church.

                                              John

                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: Berni Phillips
                                              To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 8:09 PM
                                              Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Charles Williams


                                              You might enjoy the books of Tim Powers. His _Declare_ is the novel which
                                              most shows his Christianity. (He's a Catholic Christian.) All of his
                                              novels are good. Also James Blaylock's novels might be your cup of tea,
                                              particularly _The Paper Grail_.

                                              Berni

                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: "John Davis" <john@...>

                                              > Does anyone know of any other authors who write in a similar vein to
                                              > Charles Williams? Aside from Lewis' 'Hideous Strength', I don't know of
                                              > any, which makes coming to the end of the last two of Williams' books
                                              > rather sad...
                                              >
                                              > John




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                                            • Jason Fisher
                                              John, Try Gustav Meyrink s The Golem (1915). It s just one novel and so wouldn t tide you over much, I guess; but to me, it very much has a Charles Williams
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Feb 17, 2009
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                                                John,

                                                Try Gustav Meyrink's The Golem (1915). It's just one novel and so wouldn't tide you over much, I guess; but to me, it very much has a Charles Williams feel. It's kind of a spiritual horror set in the Jewish ghetto of Prague. Borges was a big fan of the novel, but it's been largely forgotten since.

                                                Jason

                                                 



                                                ________________________________
                                                From: John Davis <john@...>
                                                To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                                                Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 3:22:59 AM
                                                Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Charles Williams


                                                Hi Berni,

                                                Thanks for that - I'll give them a try.

                                                Although it is probably the non-Christian elements of Williams' books that most appeal to me, which is to say that they often seem more spiritual than Christian - the emphasis being on morality rather than church.

                                                John

                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                From: Berni Phillips
                                                To: mythsoc@yahoogroups .com
                                                Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 8:09 PM
                                                Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Charles Williams

                                                You might enjoy the books of Tim Powers. His _Declare_ is the novel which
                                                most shows his Christianity. (He's a Catholic Christian.) All of his
                                                novels are good. Also James Blaylock's novels might be your cup of tea,
                                                particularly _The Paper Grail_.

                                                Berni

                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                From: "John Davis" <john@jdavis. co.uk>

                                                > Does anyone know of any other authors who write in a similar vein to
                                                > Charles Williams? Aside from Lewis' 'Hideous Strength', I don't know of
                                                > any, which makes coming to the end of the last two of Williams' books
                                                > rather sad...
                                                >
                                                > John

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                                              • John D Rateliff
                                                In that case, I d suggest you go behind Williams and give Algernon Blackwood s JOHN SILENCE a try. And also Wm Yeats Rosa Alchemica (most easily found,
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Feb 17, 2009
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                                                  In that case, I'd suggest you go behind Williams and give Algernon
                                                  Blackwood's JOHN SILENCE a try. And also Wm Yeats' "Rosa
                                                  Alchemica" (most easily found, with two related tales, in MYTHOLOGIES
                                                  [1959]). Some Arthur Machen stories also hover close to that territory.
                                                  If it had been the supernatural suspense that hooked you, I'd
                                                  have suggested Sax Rohmer.
                                                  I don't think there's anybody who's quite like Williams, though.
                                                  --John R.

                                                  On Feb 17, 2009, at 1:22 AM, John Davis wrote:
                                                  > Although it is probably the non-Christian elements of Williams'
                                                  > books that most appeal to me, which is to say that they often seem
                                                  > more spiritual than Christian - the emphasis being on morality
                                                  > rather than church.
                                                • John Davis
                                                  Thanks for everyone s suggestions. I ll give them all a try. John ... From: John D Rateliff To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 5:33
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Feb 18, 2009
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                                                    Thanks for everyone's suggestions. I'll give them all a try.

                                                    John

                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                    From: John D Rateliff
                                                    To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 5:33 AM
                                                    Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Charles Williams


                                                    In that case, I'd suggest you go behind Williams and give Algernon
                                                    Blackwood's JOHN SILENCE a try. And also Wm Yeats' "Rosa
                                                    Alchemica" (most easily found, with two related tales, in MYTHOLOGIES
                                                    [1959]). Some Arthur Machen stories also hover close to that territory.
                                                    If it had been the supernatural suspense that hooked you, I'd
                                                    have suggested Sax Rohmer.
                                                    I don't think there's anybody who's quite like Williams, though.
                                                    --John R.

                                                    On Feb 17, 2009, at 1:22 AM, John Davis wrote:
                                                    > Although it is probably the non-Christian elements of Williams'
                                                    > books that most appeal to me, which is to say that they often seem
                                                    > more spiritual than Christian - the emphasis being on morality
                                                    > rather than church.



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