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Re: [mythsoc] Pullman about Lewis

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  • Stolzi@aol.com
    Well, I visited two or three of the URLs Ted gave. Came away fiercely irritated, I fear. What =is= this cr*p about the Christian Heaven being a sell, because
    Message 1 of 9 , Oct 31, 2000
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      Well, I visited two or three of the URLs Ted gave. Came away fiercely
      irritated, I fear. What =is= this cr*p about the Christian Heaven being a
      sell, because "here and now is all there is, and it's all beautiful and
      wonderful and ecstatic" (approx quote)

      The man should be sentenced to nurse a terminal cancer patient, or live in a
      third-world slum for years, to cure him of producing that sort of nonsense.

      I am trying to re-read vols 1 and 2 and have a reserve at the library on vol
      3, since this trilogy is our BUTTERBUR'S WOODSHED topic for January. But it
      is going to be tough sledding. In fact I just got through the part of vol 1
      in which Mrs Coulter's kidnapping of little children is described - it's
      horrifying - this is not a book to put in any =child's= hands in any event.
      Not that most young children's reading skills are up to it.

      Mary S
    • Christine Howlett
      I agree with you that the Pullman trilogy is definitely NOT written for children. Yes, I found myself re-reading sections that seemed complex, and there is
      Message 2 of 9 , Oct 31, 2000
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        I agree with you that the Pullman trilogy is definitely NOT written for
        children. Yes, I found myself re-reading sections that seemed complex, and
        there is quite a bit of horrifying action for a child who is even a little
        imaginative. I was quite amazed that they are being marketed and sold as
        kids' books - but the children's section sure is where you find them.
        Fantasy/sci-fi would be MUCH more appropriate!

        I did find the first book quite interesting, the second book left rather a
        bitter taste. It was not altogether suprising that he is anti-religious
        (rather than un-religious, if you will). I really doubt that I will pick up
        the third volume.
        Christine


        -----Original Message-----
        From: Stolzi@... <Stolzi@...>
        To: mythsoc@egroups.com <mythsoc@egroups.com>
        Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 11:23 AM
        Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Pullman about Lewis


        >Well, I visited two or three of the URLs Ted gave. Came away fiercely
        >irritated, I fear. What =is= this cr*p about the Christian Heaven being a
        >sell, because "here and now is all there is, and it's all beautiful and
        >wonderful and ecstatic" (approx quote)
        >
        >The man should be sentenced to nurse a terminal cancer patient, or live in
        a
        >third-world slum for years, to cure him of producing that sort of nonsense.
        >
        >I am trying to re-read vols 1 and 2 and have a reserve at the library on
        vol
        >3, since this trilogy is our BUTTERBUR'S WOODSHED topic for January. But
        it
        >is going to be tough sledding. In fact I just got through the part of vol
        1
        >in which Mrs Coulter's kidnapping of little children is described - it's
        >horrifying - this is not a book to put in any =child's= hands in any event.
        >Not that most young children's reading skills are up to it.
        >
        >Mary S
        >
        >
        >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
        >
        >
      • alexeik@aol.com
        In a message dated 10/31/0 9:25:34 PM, Christine wrote:
        Message 3 of 9 , Oct 31, 2000
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          In a message dated 10/31/0 9:25:34 PM, Christine wrote:

          <<I did find the first book quite interesting, the second book left rather a
          bitter taste. It was not altogether suprising that he is anti-religious
          (rather than un-religious, if you will).>>

          I don't think he's anti-religious (at least, I don't think he'd describe
          himself that way) so much as anti-Christian or anti-theist. What bothered me
          most about it is that his views don't seem to be thought through very well;
          they're full of inconsistencies that become more and more jarring as the book
          progresses. Ursula Le Guin's world-view is probably non-Christian to the same
          degree (and essentially non-theistic), yet it's never bothered me because
          it's both consistent and very rich, and it has a balance to it that sees no
          need to attack what it's not. Pullman annoys me in the same way that preachy
          fundamentalist-Christian fantasies a la Frank Peretti irritate me, except
          that luckily he writes a thousand times better, and *does* have much more
          depth.

          << I really doubt that I will pick up
          the third volume.>>

          You should: it has some really wonderful things in it, although, as I said, I
          found the conclusion disappointing.
          Alexei
        • Sophie Masson
          I know that Philip thought quite a lot of Peter Goldthwaite s book, The Natural History of Make-Believe, which is actually written by a man with a Christian
          Message 4 of 9 , Nov 1, 2000
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            I know that Philip thought quite a lot of Peter Goldthwaite's book, The
            Natural History of Make-Believe, which is actually written by a man with a
            Christian point of view, but which is rather scathing about both Tolkien and
            Lewis(but complimentary say about Greene or Collodi). I've bought the book
            and read it; it's interesting and wellwritten though I'm not convinced by
            Goldthwaite's arguments. Basically he doesn't like the idea of sub-creation,
            as Tolkien put it.
            Sophie
            Author site:
            http://www.northnet.com.au/~smasson

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: <alexeik@...>
            To: <mythsoc@egroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, 1 November 2000 10:47
            Subject: Re: Re: [mythsoc] Pullman about Lewis


            >
            > In a message dated 10/31/0 9:25:34 PM, Christine wrote:
            >
            > <<I did find the first book quite interesting, the second book left rather
            a
            > bitter taste. It was not altogether suprising that he is anti-religious
            > (rather than un-religious, if you will).>>
            >
            > I don't think he's anti-religious (at least, I don't think he'd describe
            > himself that way) so much as anti-Christian or anti-theist. What bothered
            me
            > most about it is that his views don't seem to be thought through very
            well;
            > they're full of inconsistencies that become more and more jarring as the
            book
            > progresses. Ursula Le Guin's world-view is probably non-Christian to the
            same
            > degree (and essentially non-theistic), yet it's never bothered me because
            > it's both consistent and very rich, and it has a balance to it that sees
            no
            > need to attack what it's not. Pullman annoys me in the same way that
            preachy
            > fundamentalist-Christian fantasies a la Frank Peretti irritate me, except
            > that luckily he writes a thousand times better, and *does* have much more
            > depth.
            >
            > << I really doubt that I will pick up
            > the third volume.>>
            >
            > You should: it has some really wonderful things in it, although, as I
            said, I
            > found the conclusion disappointing.
            > Alexei
            >
            >
            > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
            >
          • David S. Bratman
            ... John Goldthwaite. It s a stunning book - stunningly bad, in my opinion. His denunciation of Narnia outdoes anything I ve seen elsewhere from even the most
            Message 5 of 9 , Nov 1, 2000
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              On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, Sophie Masson wrote:

              > I know that Philip thought quite a lot of Peter Goldthwaite's book, The
              > Natural History of Make-Believe, which is actually written by a man with a
              > Christian point of view, but which is rather scathing about both Tolkien and
              > Lewis(but complimentary say about Greene or Collodi). I've bought the book
              > and read it; it's interesting and wellwritten though I'm not convinced by
              > Goldthwaite's arguments. Basically he doesn't like the idea of sub-creation,
              > as Tolkien put it.

              John Goldthwaite. It's a stunning book - stunningly bad, in my opinion.
              His denunciation of Narnia outdoes anything I've seen elsewhere from even
              the most fanatical anti-Narnian, including Pullman. His argument against
              Tolkien's theory of sub-creation is to charge that Tolkien was a bad
              Christian by advancing it, since to subcreate is (Goldthwaite says) to
              imply that there is something insufficient about God's primary creation,
              and thereby to insult God and accuse Him of imperfection.

              Goldthwaite also spends pages upon pages on a bizarre theory of Lewis
              Carroll's writerly motivations that I can't even try to summarize.

              David Bratman
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