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Re: [mythsoc] other rituals

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  • LSolarion@aol.com
    In a message dated 09/20/2000 10:34:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time, mwinslow@firinn.org writes:
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 7, 2000
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      In a message dated 09/20/2000 10:34:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
      mwinslow@... writes:

      << I know you're teasing a bit here, Mary (thus the smiley), but I wonder how
      this is diff't than the Christian ritual of the Lord's Supper where we
      substitute wine (or even grape juice) for the blood of Christ.>>

      Sorry to bring up an old post; I've been away for awhile, and we know how
      they do pile up...
      The difference is, of course, that the bodily blood of Christ was never drunk
      at the Lord's Supper. Even when Jesus instituted it, He used wine. Whether He
      did anything to it is a major area of dispute which I, following Lewis, have
      no intention of getting into.
      The interesting point to me is the universal (except for Santeria and
      variations) Neo-Pagan avoidance of animal sacrifice, which was such a central
      feature of ancient Paganism. Not that I want them to revive it, by any means;
      I just think it sheds an interesting light on the phrase "the Old(e)
      Religion." Often they invoke the alleged continuity when it seems impressive,
      and drop it when it's inconvenient.

      I guess the point is it's easy to misunderstand the silliness of a ritual
      when
      you're not intimate with the /why/ of the ritual. After all, to some, we
      Christians are cannibalistic in that we eat the body of our god -- almost.
      <g>
      >>

      As I recall, the ancient Pagans had a problem with that doctrine as well. In
      fact, many of Jesus' own followers left Him because of it.
    • LSolarion@aol.com
      In a message dated 09/20/2000 5:15:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time, dbratman@genie.idt.net writes:
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 7, 2000
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        In a message dated 09/20/2000 5:15:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
        dbratman@... writes:

        << some
        Protestant denominations may have been founded on claims of a new divine
        revelation, but I believe most were based on their founders' conscience
        and an awareness of the needs of the community, and the neo-pagans can say
        the same.) >>

        I believe most Protestant denominations were founded on interpretations of
        Scripture concerning certain issues. Neo-Pagans, on the other hand, pride
        themselves on neither possessing nor needing any revelation beyond that of
        their own wishes. That's why so many belong to "traditions" they made up
        themselves.
      • David S. Bratman
        ... This is what I meant in an earlier post when I referred to judging neo-pagans by inappropriate Christian standards. Other religions (not just paganism) do
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 7, 2000
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          On Sat, 7 Oct 2000 LSolarion@... wrote:

          > In a message dated 09/20/2000 5:15:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
          > dbratman@... writes:
          >
          > << some
          > Protestant denominations may have been founded on claims of a new divine
          > revelation, but I believe most were based on their founders' conscience
          > and an awareness of the needs of the community, and the neo-pagans can say
          > the same.) >>
          >
          > I believe most Protestant denominations were founded on interpretations of
          > Scripture concerning certain issues. Neo-Pagans, on the other hand, pride
          > themselves on neither possessing nor needing any revelation beyond that of
          > their own wishes. That's why so many belong to "traditions" they made up
          > themselves.

          This is what I meant in an earlier post when I referred to judging
          neo-pagans by inappropriate Christian standards. Other religions (not
          just paganism) do not depend on divine revelation: which I said before, so
          I'm not sure why you're reiterating it. I read your reptition of this
          point and the way you use it to contrast Christianity with neo-paganism as
          highly critical of the latter, but I could be wrong.

          "Found[ing a denomination] on interpretation of Scripture" is what I meant
          by "based on their founders' conscience." In Christianity one filters
          one's conscience through Scripture (or possibly vice versa), and that's a
          wholly appropriate and admirable thing to do - in the Christian tradition.
          When Luther said "Here I stand: I can do no other," he was describing his
          own conscience's position on Scriptural interpretation and, more to the
          point, about its expression in then-current Christian practice. But other
          religions don't work that way: they have conscience, but not Scriptural
          interpretation.

          In paganism, there are two factors: first, that accurate information on
          how the pagans of old conducted their rituals is hard to come by (much of
          what information we have comes from non- and even anti-pagans, and can't
          always be trusted), and second, that neo-pagans are simply under no
          theological obligation to re-create everything their ancestors did, even
          if no modern civil barriers stand in the way.

          I myself belong to a branch of Judaism called Liberal Judaism, which
          includes the majority of American Jews. In contrast to the Orthodox, who
          follow all the 613 commandments and Talmudic interpretations thereof,
          Liberal Jews decide for themselves and/or as groups which commandments
          make sense under modern circumstances, and ignore the ones that they
          consider don't. (The branches of Liberalism, Conservative and Reform,
          are distinguished not by theory, but by whether they tend to follow more
          or fewer of the commandments.)

          So any criticism of neo-pagans for following their own wishes instead of
          revelation, if it doesn't give them any credit for having consciences on
          the subject, would also apply to my religion. So I am cautiously curious
          about what you meant here.

          David Bratman
          - not responsible for the following advertisement -
        • Paul F. Labaki
          Peace, Paul Labaki ... After all, to some, we ... Some of us believe that is precisely what we do. Different strokes for different folks, but Catholics
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 10, 2000
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            Peace,
            Paul Labaki

            > In a message dated 10/7 LSolarion@...

            >

            After all, to some, we
            > Christians are cannibalistic in that we eat the body of our god -- almost.


            Some of us believe that is precisely what we do. Different strokes for
            different folks, but Catholics (including yours truly) should admit that
            however civilized we have become -- or think we are -- ours is an ancient
            religion and most of our doctrine and practice is based on beliefs that have
            been held since shortly after the time of Christ. The power of the
            eucharist is as primitive as it is timeless.

            Peace,
            Paul
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