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do people think we will see kealey and fealey die in the next hobbet film? or will we just hear about it like in the book?

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  • Mich
    Hi all. I just re watched the Hobbit film again the second part. and I got to wondering. in the book when it comes to the battle of 5 armies we hear abit about
    Message 1 of 7 , Dec 21, 2013
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      Hi all. I just re watched the Hobbit film again the second part. and I got to wondering. in the book when it comes to the battle of 5 armies we hear abit about it in the book but it mostly comes from Gandalf after the fact since Bilbo get's knocked out in the book and hears about it afterwards like who died like kealey and fealey. so that got me to wondering if you think we will see the same thing happen on screen? or do you think that Jackson will have them die in battle but have the audience see it instead of just hearing about it afterwards like what happened in the book?also I wonder if any one has ever thought about the battle of 5 armies and if that was suppose to represent the battle of the Somme? and if we take that and think of Tolkien as Bilbo his nock on the head could be akin to Tolkien's being taken out of the war by trench fever and he herd about his friends deaths by hear say from other people just like Bilbo did from Gandalf in the book.   from Mich.
    • not_thou
      I expect we ll see Fili and Kili die onscreen in Peter Jackson s third HOBBIT film, even though the book describes their deaths in just one laconic sentence
      Message 2 of 7 , Dec 22, 2013
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        I expect we'll see Fili and Kili die onscreen in Peter Jackson's third HOBBIT film, even though the book describes their deaths in just one laconic sentence after the fact. In Jackson's LORD OF THE RINGS films, most action that Tolkien had described in "flashback", as it were, is shown by Jackson as it happens. I would be very impressed if Jackson cuts away from the battle when its outcome is still in doubt, as the book does, but this seems very unlikely. Blockbuster movie storytelling, even in the 2010s, has yet to catch up with the techniques of a 1930s children's book.

        -Merlin
      • John Rateliff
        My guess (and it s only a guess) is that not only will Fili and Kili and Thorin all die, dramatically and heroically, but Tauriel as well ( many an elf that
        Message 3 of 7 , Dec 23, 2013
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          My guess (and it's only a guess) is that not only will Fili and Kili and Thorin all die, dramatically and heroically, but Tauriel as well ("many an elf that should have lived yet long ages in the woods"). Also on the kill list would be  Azog and Bolg and Smaug and the Master of Lake Town, or so I assume.
             I think there's a fair-to-middling chance that more dwarves will die in the movie than in the book, following the precedent set in the Rankin-Bass HOBBIT, in which if I remember rightly only six dwarves survive from Thorin's Company.  It's hard to imagine Jackson's Dwalin surviving Thorin, for instance. I do expect Bofur, who seems to be Jackson's favorite among the dwarves, to be among the survivors.
             We do know for certain that Balin and Ori and Oin survive the Battle of Five Armies, since all three are killed decades later in Moria. Though I'd have to go back and check the scene from Jackson's FELLOWSHIP to confirm that Oin's death is mentioned in the Book of Mazarbul passages Gandalf reads aloud.
             So far as the Somme goes, I don't think it's odd to suggest that in describing a fictional battle Tolkien might have drawn on the one real battle he took part in. I don't think he incorporated specific details from the real-world battle into the fictional one, but instead used personal experience to help convey the feeling of being a very little part of a vast chaos of death.

          --John R.


          On Dec 22, 2013, at 2:22 PM, <emptyD@...> <emptyD@...> wrote:
          I expect we'll see Fili and Kili die onscreen in Peter Jackson's third HOBBIT film, even though the book describes their deaths in just one laconic sentence after the fact. In Jackson's LORD OF THE RINGS films, most action that Tolkien had described in "flashback", as it were, is shown by Jackson as it happens. I would be very impressed if Jackson cuts away from the battle when its outcome is still in doubt, as the book does, but this seems very unlikely. Blockbuster movie storytelling, even in the 2010s, has yet to catch up with the techniques of a 1930s children's book.

          -Merlin 

        • John Rateliff
          Sorry; accidentally sent that off before checking the quote, which should read [among the goblin dead lay] . . . many a fair elf that should have lived yet
          Message 4 of 7 , Dec 23, 2013
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            Sorry; accidentally sent that off before checking the quote, which should read 

            "[among the goblin dead lay] . . . many a fair elf that should have lived yet long ages merrily in the wood", from near the end of Chapter XVII in THE HOBBIT: "The Clouds Burst".

            --JDR

            On Dec 23, 2013, at 11:14 PM, John Rateliff wrote:
            My guess (and it's only a guess) is that not only will Fili and Kili and Thorin all die, dramatically and heroically, but Tauriel as well ("many an elf that should have lived yet long ages in the woods"). Also on the kill list would be  Azog and Bolg and Smaug and the Master of Lake Town, or so I assume.
               I think there's a fair-to-middling chance that more dwarves will die in the movie than in the book, following the precedent set in the Rankin-Bass HOBBIT, in which if I remember rightly only six dwarves survive from Thorin's Company.  It's hard to imagine Jackson's Dwalin surviving Thorin, for instance. I do expect Bofur, who seems to be Jackson's favorite among the dwarves, to be among the survivors.
               We do know for certain that Balin and Ori and Oin survive the Battle of Five Armies, since all three are killed decades later in Moria. Though I'd have to go back and check the scene from Jackson's FELLOWSHIP to confirm that Oin's death is mentioned in the Book of Mazarbul passages Gandalf reads aloud.
               So far as the Somme goes, I don't think it's odd to suggest that in describing a fictional battle Tolkien might have drawn on the one real battle he took part in. I don't think he incorporated specific details from the real-world battle into the fictional one, but instead used personal experience to help convey the feeling of being a very little part of a vast chaos of death.

            --John R.


            On Dec 22, 2013, at 2:22 PM, <emptyD@...> <emptyD@...> wrote:
            I expect we'll see Fili and Kili die onscreen in Peter Jackson's third HOBBIT film, even though the book describes their deaths in just one laconic sentence after the fact. In Jackson's LORD OF THE RINGS films, most action that Tolkien had described in "flashback", as it were, is shown by Jackson as it happens. I would be very impressed if Jackson cuts away from the battle when its outcome is still in doubt, as the book does, but this seems very unlikely. Blockbuster movie storytelling, even in the 2010s, has yet to catch up with the techniques of a 1930s children's book.

            -Merlin 
          • David Bratman
            ... Of course they will. I d be surprised if anything else happens. (But who knows with Jackson?) ... In the book, the Master survives, and runs off with the
            Message 5 of 7 , Dec 24, 2013
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              "John Rateliff" <sacnoth@...> wrote:

              >My guess (and it's only a guess) is that not only will Fili and Kili and
              >Thorin all die, dramatically and heroically,

              Of course they will. I'd be surprised if anything else happens. (But who
              knows with Jackson?)

              >Also on the kill
              >list would be Azog and Bolg and Smaug and the Master of Lake Town, or so I
              >assume.

              In the book, the Master survives, and runs off with the money gibbering into
              the Waste.

              >I think there's a fair-to-middling chance that more dwarves will die in
              >the movie than in the book, following the precedent set in the Rankin-Bass
              >HOBBIT

              That seems likely. At any rate, it would be a wise and sensible change,
              which, come to think of it, makes it rather unlikely on the basis of what
              we've seen so far.

              Another semi-precedent, insofar as it's a change from its book, is the movie
              of Watership Down, in which one of the rabbits is snatched by a raptor
              during the journey; that this doesn't happen in the book is actually rather
              improbable.

              >It's hard to imagine Jackson's Dwalin surviving Thorin,
              >for instance. I do expect Bofur, who seems to be Jackson's favorite among
              >the dwarves, to be among the survivors.

              What stuns me is that you can identify the dwarves. Apart from Thorin, and
              now (in the second movie) Kili, I have no idea on sight which one is
              supposed to be which. Any clues, like casual uses of their names, don't
              stick with me; there's just too many of them, and not enough time for slow
              introductions, to keep them straight.

              >We do know for certain that Balin and Ori and Oin survive the Battle of
              >Five Armies, since all three are killed decades later in Moria.

              Well, in the book. Balin's tomb is in the movie, but I don't remember if
              Jackson says anything about anybody else.

              >So far as the Somme goes, I don't think it's odd to suggest that in
              >describing a fictional battle Tolkien might have drawn on the one real
              >battle he took part in. I don't think he incorporated specific details from
              >the real-world battle into the fictional one, but instead used personal
              >experience to help convey the feeling of being a very little part of a vast
              >chaos of death.

              Agreed. An author can draw on experience without making it a one-to-one
              copy encoding.
            • Doug Kane
              From: David Bratman ... Really? Not even Balin? He very closely matches my long imagination of him, both in looks and in personality. ... Not in the film (I
              Message 6 of 7 , Dec 24, 2013
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                >What stuns me is that you can identify the dwarves. Apart from Thorin,
                and
                >now (in the second movie) Kili, I have no idea on sight which one is
                >supposed to be which. Any clues, like casual uses of their names, don't
                >stick with me; there's just too many of them, and not enough time for
                slow
                >introductions, to keep them straight.
                 
                Really?  Not even Balin? He very closely matches my long imagination of him, both in looks and in personality.

                >Well, in the book. Balin's tomb is in the movie, but I don't
                remember if
                >Jackson says anything about anybody else.
                 
                Not in the film (I don't think), but in the extra materials Ori is identified as the writer of the Book of Mazarbul and as the dead Dwarf holding the book next to Balin's tomb.

              • Mike Foster
                Jo and I have yet to see the SMAUGOLATION. I can certainly distinguish Balin, who does have the affability that would make him Bilbo’s favorite, Thorin,
                Message 7 of 7 , Dec 24, 2013
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                  Jo and I have yet to see the SMAUGOLATION.
                   
                  I can certainly distinguish Balin, who does have the affability that would make him Bilbo’s favorite, Thorin, Bombur, and Fili and Kili (but as with many twins, I am not always sure which is which.)
                   
                  Far Westfarthing smial got as far as Medwed in THE HISTORY OF THE HOBBIT so we’ll return to it in our Jan. 24 meeting.
                   
                  Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night.
                   
                  Mike
                   
                  Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2013 3:12 AM
                  Subject: Re: [mythsoc] . . . see kealey and fealey die . . .?
                   
                   

                  "John Rateliff" <sacnoth@...> wrote:

                  >My guess (and
                  it's only a guess) is that not only will Fili and Kili and
                  >Thorin all
                  die, dramatically and heroically,

                  Of course they will. I'd be surprised if anything else happens. (But who
                  knows with Jackson?)

                  >Also on
                  the kill
                  >list would be Azog and Bolg and Smaug and the Master of Lake
                  Town, or so I
                  >assume.

                  In the book, the Master survives, and runs off with the money gibbering into
                  the Waste.

                  >I think there's a
                  fair-to-middling chance that more dwarves will die in
                  >the movie than in
                  the book, following the precedent set in the Rankin-Bass
                  >HOBBIT

                  That seems likely. At any rate, it would be a wise and sensible change,
                  which, come to think of it, makes it rather unlikely on the basis of what
                  we've seen so far.

                  Another semi-precedent, insofar as it's a change from its book, is the movie
                  of Watership Down, in which one of the rabbits is snatched by a raptor
                  during the journey; that this doesn't happen in the book is actually rather
                  improbable.

                  >It's hard to imagine Jackson's Dwalin surviving
                  Thorin,
                  >for instance. I do expect Bofur, who seems to be Jackson's
                  favorite among
                  >the dwarves, to be among the survivors.

                  What stuns me is that you can identify the dwarves. Apart from Thorin, and
                  now (in the second movie) Kili, I have no idea on sight which one is
                  supposed to be which. Any clues, like casual uses of their names, don't
                  stick with me; there's just too many of them, and not enough time for slow
                  introductions, to keep them straight.

                  >We do know for certain that Balin and Ori and
                  Oin survive the Battle of
                  >Five Armies, since all three are killed decades
                  later in Moria.

                  Well, in the book. Balin's tomb is in the movie, but I don't remember if
                  Jackson says anything about anybody else.

                  >So
                  far as the Somme goes, I don't think it's odd to suggest that in
                  >describing a fictional battle Tolkien might have drawn on the one
                  real
                  >battle he took part in. I don't think he incorporated specific
                  details from
                  >the real-world battle into the fictional one, but instead
                  used personal
                  >experience to help convey the feeling of being a very
                  little part of a vast
                  >chaos of death.

                  Agreed. An author can draw on experience without making it a one-to-one
                  copy encoding.

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