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Susan (was Mythcon)

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  • Mem Morman
    I think, David, that the going to hell bit comes when Susan doesn t get to come farther up and farther in as the other characters do in the Last Battle.
    Message 1 of 22 , Jun 18, 2013
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      I think, David, that the "going to hell" bit comes when Susan doesn't get to come "farther up and farther in" as the other characters do in the Last Battle.  If not "going to hell" then what is your interpretation?
      Mem

      On 6/18/2013 4:12 PM, David Bratman wrote:
       

      Linda DeMars wrote:

      >That sounds much more likely Susan going
      >to Hell for liking "lipstick and nylons"
      >-- and does anyone remember that Lewis
      >did not say that, Jill did.

      Jill didn't say it either. Here's what Jill said:

      "Oh Susan! she's interested in nothing now-a-days except nylons and lipstick and invitations. She always was a jolly sight too keen on being grown-up."

      Do you see one word there about "going to Hell"?

      Nor is really about lipstick and nylons in themselves. Susan is being accused of trivializing herself with trying to be "grown-up" (the opposite of _really_ growing up, as Polly immediately explains) and has thereby, as Peter and Eustace have previously stated, lost Narnia.

      Susan's tragedy is that she's lost Narnia. She's not going to Hell thereby. Narnia is not Heaven. The lack of it is not Hell. And Susan may still have a chance to redeem herself.

      >It is amazing how often those who should
      >know better wil insist that words and
      >ideas put into a character's head or mouth
      >are actually the beliefs of the author.

      Yes, it is. And it's also regrettable when the words and ideas of a character actually are those of the author, but readers willfully misread them. Lewis once compared readers to sheep: they'll always go through the wrong gate if you let them.


    • Linda DeMars
      Oops, sorry. My mind moved ahead of the pen. I, in no way, meant or ever even thought that Jill was thinking Susan was going to Hell. I just was think about
      Message 2 of 22 , Jun 18, 2013
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        Oops, sorry. My mind moved ahead of the pen. I,  in no way, meant or ever even thought that Jill was thinking Susan was going to Hell. I just was think about Jill speaking  with scorn about the lipstick and the nylons and was reminded of many pre-adolescent girls who have not quite gotten to the teen stage when dressing up can be very important and are prone to say things like  "she just is trying to get boys to look at her, ugh."   I was also thinking that those who lightly say Lewis was condemning Susan or anyone else certainly did not know Lewis very well or his work. The idea of condemning a person to Hell for a frivolous act of vanity would never have been in Lewis's mind - the idea and fact of Hell was a very serious matter to Lewis,  and he would have never presumed to say that was someone's destination. He left this to God.




        On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 6:12 PM, David Bratman <dbratman@...> wrote:
         

        Linda DeMars wrote:

        >That sounds much more likely Susan going
        >to Hell for liking "lipstick and nylons"
        >-- and does anyone remember that Lewis
        >did not say that, Jill did.

        Jill didn't say it either. Here's what Jill said:

        "Oh Susan! she's interested in nothing now-a-days except nylons and lipstick and invitations. She always was a jolly sight too keen on being grown-up."

        Do you see one word there about "going to Hell"?

        Nor is really about lipstick and nylons in themselves. Susan is being accused of trivializing herself with trying to be "grown-up" (the opposite of _really_ growing up, as Polly immediately explains) and has thereby, as Peter and Eustace have previously stated, lost Narnia.

        Susan's tragedy is that she's lost Narnia. She's not going to Hell thereby. Narnia is not Heaven. The lack of it is not Hell. And Susan may still have a chance to redeem herself.


        >It is amazing how often those who should
        >know better wil insist that words and
        >ideas put into a character's head or mouth
        >are actually the beliefs of the author.

        Yes, it is. And it's also regrettable when the words and ideas of a character actually are those of the author, but readers willfully misread them. Lewis once compared readers to sheep: they'll always go through the wrong gate if you let them.


      • Grace Monk
        She isn t dead at the end of The Last Battle. That alone should show at hasn t gone to hell. There isn t a guarantee either way, true, but she isn t one of the
        Message 3 of 22 , Jun 18, 2013
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          She isn't dead at the end of The Last Battle. That alone should show at hasn't gone to hell. There isn't a guarantee either way, true, but she isn't one of the ones in the train wreck, so her ending is not yet set.

          And vanity is a serious and very destructive state of being or sin or what have you. It can be deadly even. And the willful ejection of divine revelation is a pretty serious failure of love and a symbol of pride run horribly amuck. Susan's problems aren't small, although the signs of them seem to be rather trivialized by many readers...

          Grace Monk

          On Tuesday, June 18, 2013, Mem Morman wrote:
           

          I think, David, that the "going to hell" bit comes when Susan doesn't get to come "farther up and farther in" as the other characters do in the Last Battle.  If not "going to hell" then what is your interpretation?
          Mem

          On 6/18/2013 4:12 PM, David Bratman wrote:
           

          Linda DeMars wrote:

          >That sounds much more likely Susan going
          >to Hell for liking "lipstick and nylons"
          >-- and does anyone remember that Lewis
          >did not say that, Jill did.

          Jill didn't say it either. Here's what Jill said:

          "Oh Susan! she's interested in nothing now-a-days except nylons and lipstick and invitations. She always was a jolly sight too keen on being grown-up."

          Do you see one word there about "going to Hell"?

          Nor is really about lipstick and nylons in themselves. Susan is being accused of trivializing herself with trying to be "grown-up" (the opposite of _really_ growing up, as Polly immediately explains) and has thereby, as Peter and Eustace have previously stated, lost Narnia.

          Susan's tragedy is that she's lost Narnia. She's not going to Hell thereby. Narnia is not Heaven. The lack of it is not Hell. And Susan may still have a chance to redeem herself.

          >It is amazing how often those who should
          >know better wil insist that words and
          >ideas put into a character's head or mouth
          >are actually the beliefs of the author.

          Yes, it is. And it's also regrettable when the words and ideas of a character actually are those of the author, but readers willfully misread them. Lewis once compared readers to sheep: they'll always go through the wrong gate if you let them.


        • Grace Monk
          I can t type tonight, it seems! Ejection should read rejection. I shouldn t type on an iPad when I m tired. Please forgive my tangled fingers...
          Message 4 of 22 , Jun 18, 2013
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            I can't type tonight, it seems! 

            Ejection should read rejection. I shouldn't type on an iPad when I'm tired. Please forgive my tangled fingers...

            On Tuesday, June 18, 2013, Grace Monk wrote:
            She isn't dead at the end of The Last Battle. That alone should show at hasn't gone to hell. There isn't a guarantee either way, true, but she isn't one of the ones in the train wreck, so her ending is not yet set.

            And vanity is a serious and very destructive state of being or sin or what have you. It can be deadly even. And the willful ejection of divine revelation is a pretty serious failure of love and a symbol of pride run horribly amuck. Susan's problems aren't small, although the signs of them seem to be rather trivialized by many readers...

            Grace Monk

            On Tuesday, June 18, 2013, Mem Morman wrote:
             

            I think, David, that the "going to hell" bit comes when Susan doesn't get to come "farther up and farther in" as the other characters do in the Last Battle.  If not "going to hell" then what is your interpretation?
            Mem

            On 6/18/2013 4:12 PM, David Bratman wrote:
             

            Linda DeMars wrote:

            >That sounds much more likely Susan going
            >to Hell for liking "lipstick and nylons"
            >-- and does anyone remember that Lewis
            >did not say that, Jill did.

            Jill didn't say it either. Here's what Jill said:

            "Oh Susan! she's interested in nothing now-a-days except nylons and lipstick and invitations. She always was a jolly sight too keen on being grown-up."

            Do you see one word there about "going to Hell"?

            Nor is really about lipstick and nylons in themselves. Susan is being accused of trivializing herself with trying to be "grown-up" (the opposite of _really_ growing up, as Polly immediately explains) and has thereby, as Peter and Eustace have previously stated, lost Narnia.

            Susan's tragedy is that she's lost Narnia. She's not going to Hell thereby. Narnia is not Heaven. The lack of it is not Hell. And Susan may still have a chance to redeem herself.

            >It is amazing how often those who should
            >know better wil insist that words and
            >ideas put into a character's head or mouth
            >are actually the beliefs of the author.

            Yes, it is. And it's also regrettable when the words and ideas of a character actually are those of the author, but readers willfully misread them. Lewis once compared readers to sheep: they'll always go through the wrong gate if you let them.


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          • Linda DeMars
            I left out than - trying to say the story of The Queen s Return seemed much more likely (or maybe comforting) THAN going to Hell to liking lipstick and
            Message 5 of 22 , Jun 18, 2013
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              I left out "than" - trying to say the story of The Queen's Return seemed much more likely (or maybe comforting) THAN going to Hell to liking lipstick and nylons---and I meant  Jill was the one who said the lips, nylons and invitations bit, not that Susan was condemned to Hell for that. As I said,  Jill's comment did remind me of a preteen girl.  


              I do agree with Grace that vanity and pride are not minor sins.

              Linda


              On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 10:32 PM, Grace Monk <gmariemonk@...> wrote:
               

              I can't type tonight, it seems! 


              Ejection should read rejection. I shouldn't type on an iPad when I'm tired. Please forgive my tangled fingers...


              On Tuesday, June 18, 2013, Grace Monk wrote:
              She isn't dead at the end of The Last Battle. That alone should show at hasn't gone to hell. There isn't a guarantee either way, true, but she isn't one of the ones in the train wreck, so her ending is not yet set.

              And vanity is a serious and very destructive state of being or sin or what have you. It can be deadly even. And the willful ejection of divine revelation is a pretty serious failure of love and a symbol of pride run horribly amuck. Susan's problems aren't small, although the signs of them seem to be rather trivialized by many readers...

              Grace Monk

              On Tuesday, June 18, 2013, Mem Morman wrote:
               

              I think, David, that the "going to hell" bit comes when Susan doesn't get to come "farther up and farther in" as the other characters do in the Last Battle.  If not "going to hell" then what is your interpretation?
              Mem

              On 6/18/2013 4:12 PM, David Bratman wrote:
               

              Linda DeMars wrote:

              >That sounds much more likely Susan going
              >to Hell for liking "lipstick and nylons"
              >-- and does anyone remember that Lewis
              >did not say that, Jill did.

              Jill didn't say it either. Here's what Jill said:

              "Oh Susan! she's interested in nothing now-a-days except nylons and lipstick and invitations. She always was a jolly sight too keen on being grown-up."

              Do you see one word there about "going to Hell"?

              Nor is really about lipstick and nylons in themselves. Susan is being accused of trivializing herself with trying to be "grown-up" (the opposite of _really_ growing up, as Polly immediately explains) and has thereby, as Peter and Eustace have previously stated, lost Narnia.

              Susan's tragedy is that she's lost Narnia. She's not going to Hell thereby. Narnia is not Heaven. The lack of it is not Hell. And Susan may still have a chance to redeem herself.

              >It is amazing how often those who should
              >know better wil insist that words and
              >ideas put into a character's head or mouth
              >are actually the beliefs of the author.

              Yes, it is. And it's also regrettable when the words and ideas of a character actually are those of the author, but readers willfully misread them. Lewis once compared readers to sheep: they'll always go through the wrong gate if you let them.


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            • David Bratman
              ... Further up and further in may mean going to Heaven - I think it s not actually quite that clear; it s more achieving a new stage of wondrous appreciation
              Message 6 of 22 , Jun 18, 2013
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                Mem Morman wrote:

                >I think, David, that the "going to hell"
                >bit comes when Susan doesn't get to come "farther up and farther
                >in" as the other characters do in the Last Battle. If not "going
                >to hell" then what is your interpretation?

                "Further up and further in" may mean going to Heaven - I think it's not actually quite that clear; it's more achieving a new stage of wondrous appreciation of Christian truth. But if it is going to Heaven, then not going "further up and further in" means not going to Heaven. It doesn't mean going to Hell. Remember that, unlike the others, Susan isn't dead, so she's not going anywhere at the moment.

                And my original point was that, regardless of any of this, Jill didn't say anything about it. At the time, neither Jill nor any of the others knows that their re-summoning to Narnia is because they're dead.
              • David Bratman
                ... I wrote that Susan has trivialized herself, and I hope you don t think I was thereby trivializing her problems. I meant that her problems took the form
                Message 7 of 22 , Jun 18, 2013
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                  Grace Monk wrote:

                  >And vanity is a serious and very destructive
                  >state of being or sin or what have you. It can
                  >be deadly even. And the willful ejection of
                  >divine revelation is a pretty serious failure
                  >of love and a symbol of pride run horribly
                  >amuck. Susan's problems aren't small,
                  >although the signs of them seem to be rather
                  >trivialized by many readers...

                  I wrote that "Susan has trivialized herself," and I hope you don't think I was thereby trivializing her problems. I meant that her problems took the form of her elevating the trivial and ignoring the important in her life.

                  Her sins at this point are small, but you are correct that her potential problems are great. As Screwtape says, in luring the human soul to the devil's lair, "Murder is no better than cards if cards will do the trick." Susan's vanity, if not subsequently cured, will do that trick, and that is a fundamental belief of Lewis's that those who wish to excuse her follies ignore, since it's not a position that has much place in a worldview without a devil in it.
                • Kelly Brown
                  Agreed. Besides, she s a teenager. She s lost perspective, as many teenagers do. For  most kids the  lipstick an nylons thing is just a phase, but I do
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jun 20, 2013
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                    Agreed. Besides, she's a teenager. She's lost perspective, as many teenagers do. For  most kids the  "lipstick an nylons" thing is just a phase, but I do understand what you're saying.



                    From: David Bratman <dbratman@...>
                    To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 4:12 PM
                    Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Writers at Mythcon

                     
                    Linda DeMars wrote:

                    >That sounds much more likely Susan going
                    >to Hell for liking "lipstick and nylons"
                    >-- and does anyone remember that Lewis
                    >did not say that, Jill did.

                    Jill didn't say it either. Here's what Jill said:

                    "Oh Susan! she's interested in nothing now-a-days except nylons and lipstick and invitations. She always was a jolly sight too keen on being grown-up."

                    Do you see one word there about "going to Hell"?

                    Nor is really about lipstick and nylons in themselves. Susan is being accused of trivializing herself with trying to be "grown-up" (the opposite of _really_ growing up, as Polly immediately explains) and has thereby, as Peter and Eustace have previously stated, lost Narnia.

                    Susan's tragedy is that she's lost Narnia. She's not going to Hell thereby. Narnia is not Heaven. The lack of it is not Hell. And Susan may still have a chance to redeem herself.

                    >It is amazing how often those who should
                    >know better wil insist that words and
                    >ideas put into a character's head or mouth
                    >are actually the beliefs of the author.

                    Yes, it is. And it's also regrettable when the words and ideas of a character actually are those of the author, but readers willfully misread them. Lewis once compared readers to sheep: they'll always go through the wrong gate if you let them.



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