Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Writers at Mythcon

Expand Messages
  • R.J. Anderson
    Linda -- Might the story you remember be The Queen s Return by honorh? If so, it s here: http://honorh.livejournal.com/226358.html I don t normally read
    Message 1 of 22 , Jun 18, 2013
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
      Linda --

      Might the story you remember be "The Queen's Return" by honorh? If so, it's here: http://honorh.livejournal.com/226358.html

      I don't normally read Narnia fanfic because it hurts too much when people get it wrong (and they usually do, sometimes nauseatingly so) but that one came recommended to me, and I was glad I gave it a chance.
      --
      Rebecca
    • Linda DeMars
      Thank you, Rebecca, so very much. That was the very story I was thinking of - I will not lose it again. That sounds much more likely Susan going to Hell for
      Message 2 of 22 , Jun 18, 2013
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment
        Thank you, Rebecca, so very much.  That was the very story I was thinking of - I will not lose it again.  That sounds much more likely Susan going to Hell for liking "lipstick and nylons"-- and does anyone remember that Lewis did not say that, Jill did.  It is amazing how often those who should know better wil insist that words and ideas put into a character's head or mouth are actually the beliefs of the author.  I remember showing a poem I had written to someone and having them say, "If you feel that way, you should go and see a therapist, " and I tried to explain that the words were not mine,  the person, in the poem, was speaking them or thinking them.

        Thank you so much again. I am so happy to see this story.

        Linda 


        On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 10:17 AM, R.J. Anderson <rjawriter@...> wrote:
         

        Linda --

        Might the story you remember be "The Queen's Return" by honorh? If so, it's here: http://honorh.livejournal.com/226358.html

        I don't normally read Narnia fanfic because it hurts too much when people get it wrong (and they usually do, sometimes nauseatingly so) but that one came recommended to me, and I was glad I gave it a chance.
        --
        Rebecca


      • John Rateliff
        Also not to be forgotten in this context is Neil Gaiman s brilliant short story The Problem of Susan ; not sure which of his collections it appears in. --John
        Message 3 of 22 , Jun 18, 2013
        View Source
        • 0 Attachment
          Also not to be forgotten in this context is Neil Gaiman's brilliant short story "The Problem of Susan"; not sure which of his collections it appears in.
             --John R. 


          On Jun 18, 2013, at 7:17 AM, R.J. Anderson wrote:
          Linda --

          Might the story you remember be "The Queen's Return" by honorh? If so, it's here:http://honorh.livejournal.com/226358.html

          I don't normally read Narnia fanfic because it hurts too much when people get it wrong (and they usually do, sometimes nauseatingly so) but that one came recommended to me, and I was glad I gave it a chance.
          --
          Rebecca

        • David Bratman
          ... Jill didn t say it either. Here s what Jill said: Oh Susan! she s interested in nothing now-a-days except nylons and lipstick and invitations. She always
          Message 4 of 22 , Jun 18, 2013
          View Source
          • 0 Attachment
            Linda DeMars wrote:

            >That sounds much more likely Susan going
            >to Hell for liking "lipstick and nylons"
            >-- and does anyone remember that Lewis
            >did not say that, Jill did.

            Jill didn't say it either. Here's what Jill said:

            "Oh Susan! she's interested in nothing now-a-days except nylons and lipstick and invitations. She always was a jolly sight too keen on being grown-up."

            Do you see one word there about "going to Hell"?

            Nor is really about lipstick and nylons in themselves. Susan is being accused of trivializing herself with trying to be "grown-up" (the opposite of _really_ growing up, as Polly immediately explains) and has thereby, as Peter and Eustace have previously stated, lost Narnia.

            Susan's tragedy is that she's lost Narnia. She's not going to Hell thereby. Narnia is not Heaven. The lack of it is not Hell. And Susan may still have a chance to redeem herself.

            >It is amazing how often those who should
            >know better wil insist that words and
            >ideas put into a character's head or mouth
            >are actually the beliefs of the author.

            Yes, it is. And it's also regrettable when the words and ideas of a character actually are those of the author, but readers willfully misread them. Lewis once compared readers to sheep: they'll always go through the wrong gate if you let them.
          • Mem Morman
            I think, David, that the going to hell bit comes when Susan doesn t get to come farther up and farther in as the other characters do in the Last Battle.
            Message 5 of 22 , Jun 18, 2013
            View Source
            • 0 Attachment
              I think, David, that the "going to hell" bit comes when Susan doesn't get to come "farther up and farther in" as the other characters do in the Last Battle.  If not "going to hell" then what is your interpretation?
              Mem

              On 6/18/2013 4:12 PM, David Bratman wrote:
               

              Linda DeMars wrote:

              >That sounds much more likely Susan going
              >to Hell for liking "lipstick and nylons"
              >-- and does anyone remember that Lewis
              >did not say that, Jill did.

              Jill didn't say it either. Here's what Jill said:

              "Oh Susan! she's interested in nothing now-a-days except nylons and lipstick and invitations. She always was a jolly sight too keen on being grown-up."

              Do you see one word there about "going to Hell"?

              Nor is really about lipstick and nylons in themselves. Susan is being accused of trivializing herself with trying to be "grown-up" (the opposite of _really_ growing up, as Polly immediately explains) and has thereby, as Peter and Eustace have previously stated, lost Narnia.

              Susan's tragedy is that she's lost Narnia. She's not going to Hell thereby. Narnia is not Heaven. The lack of it is not Hell. And Susan may still have a chance to redeem herself.

              >It is amazing how often those who should
              >know better wil insist that words and
              >ideas put into a character's head or mouth
              >are actually the beliefs of the author.

              Yes, it is. And it's also regrettable when the words and ideas of a character actually are those of the author, but readers willfully misread them. Lewis once compared readers to sheep: they'll always go through the wrong gate if you let them.


            • Linda DeMars
              Oops, sorry. My mind moved ahead of the pen. I, in no way, meant or ever even thought that Jill was thinking Susan was going to Hell. I just was think about
              Message 6 of 22 , Jun 18, 2013
              View Source
              • 0 Attachment
                Oops, sorry. My mind moved ahead of the pen. I,  in no way, meant or ever even thought that Jill was thinking Susan was going to Hell. I just was think about Jill speaking  with scorn about the lipstick and the nylons and was reminded of many pre-adolescent girls who have not quite gotten to the teen stage when dressing up can be very important and are prone to say things like  "she just is trying to get boys to look at her, ugh."   I was also thinking that those who lightly say Lewis was condemning Susan or anyone else certainly did not know Lewis very well or his work. The idea of condemning a person to Hell for a frivolous act of vanity would never have been in Lewis's mind - the idea and fact of Hell was a very serious matter to Lewis,  and he would have never presumed to say that was someone's destination. He left this to God.




                On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 6:12 PM, David Bratman <dbratman@...> wrote:
                 

                Linda DeMars wrote:

                >That sounds much more likely Susan going
                >to Hell for liking "lipstick and nylons"
                >-- and does anyone remember that Lewis
                >did not say that, Jill did.

                Jill didn't say it either. Here's what Jill said:

                "Oh Susan! she's interested in nothing now-a-days except nylons and lipstick and invitations. She always was a jolly sight too keen on being grown-up."

                Do you see one word there about "going to Hell"?

                Nor is really about lipstick and nylons in themselves. Susan is being accused of trivializing herself with trying to be "grown-up" (the opposite of _really_ growing up, as Polly immediately explains) and has thereby, as Peter and Eustace have previously stated, lost Narnia.

                Susan's tragedy is that she's lost Narnia. She's not going to Hell thereby. Narnia is not Heaven. The lack of it is not Hell. And Susan may still have a chance to redeem herself.


                >It is amazing how often those who should
                >know better wil insist that words and
                >ideas put into a character's head or mouth
                >are actually the beliefs of the author.

                Yes, it is. And it's also regrettable when the words and ideas of a character actually are those of the author, but readers willfully misread them. Lewis once compared readers to sheep: they'll always go through the wrong gate if you let them.


              • Grace Monk
                She isn t dead at the end of The Last Battle. That alone should show at hasn t gone to hell. There isn t a guarantee either way, true, but she isn t one of the
                Message 7 of 22 , Jun 18, 2013
                View Source
                • 0 Attachment
                  She isn't dead at the end of The Last Battle. That alone should show at hasn't gone to hell. There isn't a guarantee either way, true, but she isn't one of the ones in the train wreck, so her ending is not yet set.

                  And vanity is a serious and very destructive state of being or sin or what have you. It can be deadly even. And the willful ejection of divine revelation is a pretty serious failure of love and a symbol of pride run horribly amuck. Susan's problems aren't small, although the signs of them seem to be rather trivialized by many readers...

                  Grace Monk

                  On Tuesday, June 18, 2013, Mem Morman wrote:
                   

                  I think, David, that the "going to hell" bit comes when Susan doesn't get to come "farther up and farther in" as the other characters do in the Last Battle.  If not "going to hell" then what is your interpretation?
                  Mem

                  On 6/18/2013 4:12 PM, David Bratman wrote:
                   

                  Linda DeMars wrote:

                  >That sounds much more likely Susan going
                  >to Hell for liking "lipstick and nylons"
                  >-- and does anyone remember that Lewis
                  >did not say that, Jill did.

                  Jill didn't say it either. Here's what Jill said:

                  "Oh Susan! she's interested in nothing now-a-days except nylons and lipstick and invitations. She always was a jolly sight too keen on being grown-up."

                  Do you see one word there about "going to Hell"?

                  Nor is really about lipstick and nylons in themselves. Susan is being accused of trivializing herself with trying to be "grown-up" (the opposite of _really_ growing up, as Polly immediately explains) and has thereby, as Peter and Eustace have previously stated, lost Narnia.

                  Susan's tragedy is that she's lost Narnia. She's not going to Hell thereby. Narnia is not Heaven. The lack of it is not Hell. And Susan may still have a chance to redeem herself.

                  >It is amazing how often those who should
                  >know better wil insist that words and
                  >ideas put into a character's head or mouth
                  >are actually the beliefs of the author.

                  Yes, it is. And it's also regrettable when the words and ideas of a character actually are those of the author, but readers willfully misread them. Lewis once compared readers to sheep: they'll always go through the wrong gate if you let them.


                • Grace Monk
                  I can t type tonight, it seems! Ejection should read rejection. I shouldn t type on an iPad when I m tired. Please forgive my tangled fingers...
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jun 18, 2013
                  View Source
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I can't type tonight, it seems! 

                    Ejection should read rejection. I shouldn't type on an iPad when I'm tired. Please forgive my tangled fingers...

                    On Tuesday, June 18, 2013, Grace Monk wrote:
                    She isn't dead at the end of The Last Battle. That alone should show at hasn't gone to hell. There isn't a guarantee either way, true, but she isn't one of the ones in the train wreck, so her ending is not yet set.

                    And vanity is a serious and very destructive state of being or sin or what have you. It can be deadly even. And the willful ejection of divine revelation is a pretty serious failure of love and a symbol of pride run horribly amuck. Susan's problems aren't small, although the signs of them seem to be rather trivialized by many readers...

                    Grace Monk

                    On Tuesday, June 18, 2013, Mem Morman wrote:
                     

                    I think, David, that the "going to hell" bit comes when Susan doesn't get to come "farther up and farther in" as the other characters do in the Last Battle.  If not "going to hell" then what is your interpretation?
                    Mem

                    On 6/18/2013 4:12 PM, David Bratman wrote:
                     

                    Linda DeMars wrote:

                    >That sounds much more likely Susan going
                    >to Hell for liking "lipstick and nylons"
                    >-- and does anyone remember that Lewis
                    >did not say that, Jill did.

                    Jill didn't say it either. Here's what Jill said:

                    "Oh Susan! she's interested in nothing now-a-days except nylons and lipstick and invitations. She always was a jolly sight too keen on being grown-up."

                    Do you see one word there about "going to Hell"?

                    Nor is really about lipstick and nylons in themselves. Susan is being accused of trivializing herself with trying to be "grown-up" (the opposite of _really_ growing up, as Polly immediately explains) and has thereby, as Peter and Eustace have previously stated, lost Narnia.

                    Susan's tragedy is that she's lost Narnia. She's not going to Hell thereby. Narnia is not Heaven. The lack of it is not Hell. And Susan may still have a chance to redeem herself.

                    >It is amazing how often those who should
                    >know better wil insist that words and
                    >ideas put into a character's head or mouth
                    >are actually the beliefs of the author.

                    Yes, it is. And it's also regrettable when the words and ideas of a character actually are those of the author, but readers willfully misread them. Lewis once compared readers to sheep: they'll always go through the wrong gate if you let them.


                    Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (15)
                  • Linda DeMars
                    I left out than - trying to say the story of The Queen s Return seemed much more likely (or maybe comforting) THAN going to Hell to liking lipstick and
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jun 18, 2013
                    View Source
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I left out "than" - trying to say the story of The Queen's Return seemed much more likely (or maybe comforting) THAN going to Hell to liking lipstick and nylons---and I meant  Jill was the one who said the lips, nylons and invitations bit, not that Susan was condemned to Hell for that. As I said,  Jill's comment did remind me of a preteen girl.  


                      I do agree with Grace that vanity and pride are not minor sins.

                      Linda


                      On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 10:32 PM, Grace Monk <gmariemonk@...> wrote:
                       

                      I can't type tonight, it seems! 


                      Ejection should read rejection. I shouldn't type on an iPad when I'm tired. Please forgive my tangled fingers...


                      On Tuesday, June 18, 2013, Grace Monk wrote:
                      She isn't dead at the end of The Last Battle. That alone should show at hasn't gone to hell. There isn't a guarantee either way, true, but she isn't one of the ones in the train wreck, so her ending is not yet set.

                      And vanity is a serious and very destructive state of being or sin or what have you. It can be deadly even. And the willful ejection of divine revelation is a pretty serious failure of love and a symbol of pride run horribly amuck. Susan's problems aren't small, although the signs of them seem to be rather trivialized by many readers...

                      Grace Monk

                      On Tuesday, June 18, 2013, Mem Morman wrote:
                       

                      I think, David, that the "going to hell" bit comes when Susan doesn't get to come "farther up and farther in" as the other characters do in the Last Battle.  If not "going to hell" then what is your interpretation?
                      Mem

                      On 6/18/2013 4:12 PM, David Bratman wrote:
                       

                      Linda DeMars wrote:

                      >That sounds much more likely Susan going
                      >to Hell for liking "lipstick and nylons"
                      >-- and does anyone remember that Lewis
                      >did not say that, Jill did.

                      Jill didn't say it either. Here's what Jill said:

                      "Oh Susan! she's interested in nothing now-a-days except nylons and lipstick and invitations. She always was a jolly sight too keen on being grown-up."

                      Do you see one word there about "going to Hell"?

                      Nor is really about lipstick and nylons in themselves. Susan is being accused of trivializing herself with trying to be "grown-up" (the opposite of _really_ growing up, as Polly immediately explains) and has thereby, as Peter and Eustace have previously stated, lost Narnia.

                      Susan's tragedy is that she's lost Narnia. She's not going to Hell thereby. Narnia is not Heaven. The lack of it is not Hell. And Susan may still have a chance to redeem herself.

                      >It is amazing how often those who should
                      >know better wil insist that words and
                      >ideas put into a character's head or mouth
                      >are actually the beliefs of the author.

                      Yes, it is. And it's also regrettable when the words and ideas of a character actually are those of the author, but readers willfully misread them. Lewis once compared readers to sheep: they'll always go through the wrong gate if you let them.


                      Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (15)


                    • David Bratman
                      ... Further up and further in may mean going to Heaven - I think it s not actually quite that clear; it s more achieving a new stage of wondrous appreciation
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jun 18, 2013
                      View Source
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Mem Morman wrote:

                        >I think, David, that the "going to hell"
                        >bit comes when Susan doesn't get to come "farther up and farther
                        >in" as the other characters do in the Last Battle. If not "going
                        >to hell" then what is your interpretation?

                        "Further up and further in" may mean going to Heaven - I think it's not actually quite that clear; it's more achieving a new stage of wondrous appreciation of Christian truth. But if it is going to Heaven, then not going "further up and further in" means not going to Heaven. It doesn't mean going to Hell. Remember that, unlike the others, Susan isn't dead, so she's not going anywhere at the moment.

                        And my original point was that, regardless of any of this, Jill didn't say anything about it. At the time, neither Jill nor any of the others knows that their re-summoning to Narnia is because they're dead.
                      • David Bratman
                        ... I wrote that Susan has trivialized herself, and I hope you don t think I was thereby trivializing her problems. I meant that her problems took the form
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jun 18, 2013
                        View Source
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Grace Monk wrote:

                          >And vanity is a serious and very destructive
                          >state of being or sin or what have you. It can
                          >be deadly even. And the willful ejection of
                          >divine revelation is a pretty serious failure
                          >of love and a symbol of pride run horribly
                          >amuck. Susan's problems aren't small,
                          >although the signs of them seem to be rather
                          >trivialized by many readers...

                          I wrote that "Susan has trivialized herself," and I hope you don't think I was thereby trivializing her problems. I meant that her problems took the form of her elevating the trivial and ignoring the important in her life.

                          Her sins at this point are small, but you are correct that her potential problems are great. As Screwtape says, in luring the human soul to the devil's lair, "Murder is no better than cards if cards will do the trick." Susan's vanity, if not subsequently cured, will do that trick, and that is a fundamental belief of Lewis's that those who wish to excuse her follies ignore, since it's not a position that has much place in a worldview without a devil in it.
                        • Kelly Brown
                          Agreed. Besides, she s a teenager. She s lost perspective, as many teenagers do. For  most kids the  lipstick an nylons thing is just a phase, but I do
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jun 20, 2013
                          View Source
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Agreed. Besides, she's a teenager. She's lost perspective, as many teenagers do. For  most kids the  "lipstick an nylons" thing is just a phase, but I do understand what you're saying.



                            From: David Bratman <dbratman@...>
                            To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 4:12 PM
                            Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Writers at Mythcon

                             
                            Linda DeMars wrote:

                            >That sounds much more likely Susan going
                            >to Hell for liking "lipstick and nylons"
                            >-- and does anyone remember that Lewis
                            >did not say that, Jill did.

                            Jill didn't say it either. Here's what Jill said:

                            "Oh Susan! she's interested in nothing now-a-days except nylons and lipstick and invitations. She always was a jolly sight too keen on being grown-up."

                            Do you see one word there about "going to Hell"?

                            Nor is really about lipstick and nylons in themselves. Susan is being accused of trivializing herself with trying to be "grown-up" (the opposite of _really_ growing up, as Polly immediately explains) and has thereby, as Peter and Eustace have previously stated, lost Narnia.

                            Susan's tragedy is that she's lost Narnia. She's not going to Hell thereby. Narnia is not Heaven. The lack of it is not Hell. And Susan may still have a chance to redeem herself.

                            >It is amazing how often those who should
                            >know better wil insist that words and
                            >ideas put into a character's head or mouth
                            >are actually the beliefs of the author.

                            Yes, it is. And it's also regrettable when the words and ideas of a character actually are those of the author, but readers willfully misread them. Lewis once compared readers to sheep: they'll always go through the wrong gate if you let them.



                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.