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Re: [mythsoc] Writers at Mythcon

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  • Linda DeMars
    Is Jef Murray coming? He has a really good book - at least I thought it was. Also, Joan Marie Verba - she wrote a good book. I I read it on Kindle and bought
    Message 1 of 22 , Jun 16, 2013
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      Is Jef Murray coming? He has a really good book - at least I thought it was. Also, Joan Marie Verba - she wrote a good book. I I read it on Kindle and bought the hard copy for my two fourteen year old grandchildren.

      Linda DeMars


      On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 3:05 PM, <WendellWag@...> wrote:
       

      The following is my usual list of writers at Mythcon this year for those attendees who (like me) would like to know what books to bring along to get signed.  For the purposes of this list, I'm counting anyone who has published a book or article that has some relationship to the Society's interests (i.e., the Inklings, fantasy, science fiction, mythology, etc.) except that I'm not counting those whose only publications were in Society journals.  I don't count publications in Society journals because that would include most people at Mythcon.  I don't count things not related to the Society's interests because, while I'm happy about your new book on tax law or particle physics, I don't want to include books that aren't likely to be brought to Mythcon.  Any additions, deletions, or corrections would be appreciated.
       
      Wendell Wagner
       
      ******************************************************************************************************************************
       
      Douglas Anderson
      Franny Billingsley
      David Bratman
      Tim Callahan
      Janet Croft
      Leslie Donovan
      Jason Fisher
      Verlyn Flieger
      Wayne Hammond
      Carl Hostetter
      Christina Scull
      Arden Smith
      Richard West
      Donald Williams


    • Berni Phillips
      I know Jim Hines will also be there. He has written some humorous fantasy from the point of view of an orc, a take-off on fairy tales, and his newest series
      Message 2 of 22 , Jun 16, 2013
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        I know Jim Hines will also be there.  He has written some humorous fantasy from the point of view of an orc, a take-off on fairy tales, and his newest series (first book LIBRIOMANCER), is about a character who is able to reach inside books and extract  physical objects described in the text. 

         

        Berni

         

         

        From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of WendellWag@...
        Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2013 12:06 PM
        To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [mythsoc] Writers at Mythcon

         




        The following is my usual list of writers at Mythcon this year for those attendees who (like me) would like to know what books to bring along to get signed.  For the purposes of this list, I'm counting anyone who has published a book or article that has some relationship to the Society's interests (i.e., the Inklings, fantasy, science fiction, mythology, etc.) except that I'm not counting those whose only publications were in Society journals.  I don't count publications in Society journals because that would include most people at Mythcon.  I don't count things not related to the Society's interests because, while I'm happy about your new book on tax law or particle physics, I don't want to include books that aren't likely to be brought to Mythcon.  Any additions, deletions, or corrections would be appreciated.

         

        Wendell Wagner

         

        ******************************************************************************************************************************

         

        Douglas Anderson

        Franny Billingsley

        David Bratman

        Tim Callahan

        Janet Croft

        Leslie Donovan

        Jason Fisher

        Verlyn Flieger

        Wayne Hammond

        Carl Hostetter

        Christina Scull

        Arden Smith

        Richard West

        Donald Williams




      • Linda DeMars
        Berni s friend s book looks interesting. I ll have to look that up. Linda
        Message 3 of 22 , Jun 16, 2013
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          Berni's friend's book looks interesting. I'll have to look that up.

          Linda


          On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 6:57 PM, Berni Phillips <bernip@...> wrote:
           

          I know Jim Hines will also be there.  He has written some humorous fantasy from the point of view of an orc, a take-off on fairy tales, and his newest series (first book LIBRIOMANCER), is about a character who is able to reach inside books and extract  physical objects described in the text. 

           

          Berni

           

           

          From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of WendellWag@...
          Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2013 12:06 PM
          To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [mythsoc] Writers at Mythcon

           




          The following is my usual list of writers at Mythcon this year for those attendees who (like me) would like to know what books to bring along to get signed.  For the purposes of this list, I'm counting anyone who has published a book or article that has some relationship to the Society's interests (i.e., the Inklings, fantasy, science fiction, mythology, etc.) except that I'm not counting those whose only publications were in Society journals.  I don't count publications in Society journals because that would include most people at Mythcon.  I don't count things not related to the Society's interests because, while I'm happy about your new book on tax law or particle physics, I don't want to include books that aren't likely to be brought to Mythcon.  Any additions, deletions, or corrections would be appreciated.

           

          Wendell Wagner

           

          ******************************************************************************************************************************

           

          Douglas Anderson

          Franny Billingsley

          David Bratman

          Tim Callahan

          Janet Croft

          Leslie Donovan

          Jason Fisher

          Verlyn Flieger

          Wayne Hammond

          Carl Hostetter

          Christina Scull

          Arden Smith

          Richard West

          Donald Williams





        • Berni Phillips
          Linda, I ve never met the man. I ve just read some of his books and his non-fiction/fannish writing. He seems like a great guy. He s the guy who had himself
          Message 4 of 22 , Jun 16, 2013
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            Linda, I’ve never met the man.  I’ve just read some of his books and his non-fiction/fannish writing.

             

            He seems like a great guy.  He’s the guy who had himself photographed in the ridiculous poses that are typically seen on covers with women, pointing out how non-ergonomic, painful, and ridiculous they truly are.  He writes on Live Journal under his name.  He’s got a wife and kids and seems firmly grounded in the real world and is passionate about making it better.

             

            Berni

             

             

            From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Linda DeMars
            Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2013 4:09 PM
            To: mythsoc
            Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Writers at Mythcon

             




            Berni's friend's book looks interesting. I'll have to look that up.

             

            Linda

             

            On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 6:57 PM, Berni Phillips <bernip@...> wrote:

             

            I know Jim Hines will also be there.  He has written some humorous fantasy from the point of view of an orc, a take-off on fairy tales, and his newest series (first book LIBRIOMANCER), is about a character who is able to reach inside books and extract  physical objects described in the text. 

             

            Berni

             

             

            From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of WendellWag@...
            Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2013 12:06 PM
            To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [mythsoc] Writers at Mythcon

             



            The following is my usual list of writers at Mythcon this year for those attendees who (like me) would like to know what books to bring along to get signed.  For the purposes of this list, I'm counting anyone who has published a book or article that has some relationship to the Society's interests (i.e., the Inklings, fantasy, science fiction, mythology, etc.) except that I'm not counting those whose only publications were in Society journals.  I don't count publications in Society journals because that would include most people at Mythcon.  I don't count things not related to the Society's interests because, while I'm happy about your new book on tax law or particle physics, I don't want to include books that aren't likely to be brought to Mythcon.  Any additions, deletions, or corrections would be appreciated.

             

            Wendell Wagner

             

            ******************************************************************************************************************************

             

            Douglas Anderson

            Franny Billingsley

            David Bratman

            Tim Callahan

            Janet Croft

            Leslie Donovan

            Jason Fisher

            Verlyn Flieger

            Wayne Hammond

            Carl Hostetter

            Christina Scull

            Arden Smith

            Richard West

            Donald Williams



             




          • Leslie A. Donovan
            Other writers I know are attending are: Saladin Ahmed RJ Anderson They both write fiction, though i don t know their work personally-- yet. Leslie Leslie A.
            Message 5 of 22 , Jun 16, 2013
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              Other writers I know are attending are:

              Saladin Ahmed
              RJ Anderson

              They both write fiction, though i don't know their work personally-- yet.

              Leslie

              Leslie A. Donovan
              Associate Professor, Honors College
              UNM Presidential Teaching Fellow
              Regents' Scholars Coordinator

              Honors College
              MSC06 3890
              1 University of New Mexico
              Albuquerque, NM 87131
              (505) 277-4313
              ldonovan@...
              http://www.unm.edu/~ldonovan
            • ftl_publications
              ... From: Linda DeMars ... Alas, I won t be able to get to Mythcon this year. (Thanks for the compliment on Sword of Queens!) Joan
              Message 6 of 22 , Jun 16, 2013
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                --- Original Message ---
                From: Linda DeMars <linda@...>

                > Is Jef Murray coming? He has a really good book - at least I thought it
                > was. Also, Joan Marie Verba - she wrote a good book. I I read it on Kindle
                > and bought the hard copy for my two fourteen year old grandchildren.

                Alas, I won't be able to get to Mythcon this year. (Thanks for the compliment on
                Sword of Queens!)

                Joan
              • R.J. Anderson
                Thanks for the mention, Leslie. To clarify a bit, I ve published a trilogy of middle grade fantasy novels (KNIFE aka SPELL HUNTER, REBEL aka WAYFARER, and
                Message 7 of 22 , Jun 17, 2013
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                  Thanks for the mention, Leslie.

                  To clarify a bit, I've published a trilogy of middle grade fantasy novels (KNIFE aka SPELL HUNTER, REBEL aka WAYFARER, and ARROW) and a duology of teen SF novels (ULTRAVIOLET and QUICKSILVER).

                  I count Lewis, Tolkien and MacDonald among my earliest influences, as well as E. Nesbit, Patricia McKillip, Ursula LeGuin and others frequently mentioned in a mythopoeic context. All my books deal with the numinous in the modern world, with a preference for rural or suburban settings rather than urban.

                  If anyone would like to find out more about the books or read some of my essays on fantasy and SF, my website is at http://www.rj-anderson.com/ .

                  Of particular interest to list members may be my essay on the Problem of Susan (http://rj-anderson.livejournal.com/176635.html), where I finally lost patience with the people who insist that Susan was "denied heaven" for liking lipstick; and my interview with Mike Duran (http://mikeduran.com/2012/02/interview-w-ya-fantasist-r-j-anderson/) about the spiritual value of fantasy literature.

                  I apologize for not having properly introduced myself to the list before! I look forward to meeting many of you at Mythcon.

                  Urendi Maleldil,
                  --
                  Rebecca
                  (R.J. Anderson)
                  www.rj-anderson.com
                • Linda DeMars
                  Agree with your essay. Did you ever run across a short story on LJ-I thought that was where I saw it a few years ago- which brings Susan back in contact with
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jun 17, 2013
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                    Agree with your essay.  Did you ever run across a short story on LJ-I thought that was where I saw it a few years ago- which brings Susan back in contact with Aslan and a second chance.  I thought I read it around Christmas one year. I really liked it and wish I knew where that link was so I could reread it.

                    Linda DeMars


                    On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 9:16 AM, R.J. Anderson <rjawriter@...> wrote:
                     

                    Thanks for the mention, Leslie.

                    To clarify a bit, I've published a trilogy of middle grade fantasy novels (KNIFE aka SPELL HUNTER, REBEL aka WAYFARER, and ARROW) and a duology of teen SF novels (ULTRAVIOLET and QUICKSILVER).

                    I count Lewis, Tolkien and MacDonald among my earliest influences, as well as E. Nesbit, Patricia McKillip, Ursula LeGuin and others frequently mentioned in a mythopoeic context. All my books deal with the numinous in the modern world, with a preference for rural or suburban settings rather than urban.

                    If anyone would like to find out more about the books or read some of my essays on fantasy and SF, my website is at http://www.rj-anderson.com/ .

                    Of particular interest to list members may be my essay on the Problem of Susan (http://rj-anderson.livejournal.com/176635.html), where I finally lost patience with the people who insist that Susan was "denied heaven" for liking lipstick; and my interview with Mike Duran (http://mikeduran.com/2012/02/interview-w-ya-fantasist-r-j-anderson/) about the spiritual value of fantasy literature.

                    I apologize for not having properly introduced myself to the list before! I look forward to meeting many of you at Mythcon.

                    Urendi Maleldil,
                    --
                    Rebecca
                    (R.J. Anderson)
                    www.rj-anderson.com


                  • Alana Joli Abbott
                    Jim s a professional friend of mine (he recently wrote an essay for the publisher I contract for) and I think he s an awesome guy, even though I ve never met
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jun 17, 2013
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                      Jim's a professional friend of mine (he recently wrote an essay for the publisher I contract for) and I think he's an awesome guy, even though I've never met him in person. His newest that Berni mentions, Libriomancer, features a fantasy-loving librarian as a main character (who, yes, can do magic stuff, but the character could otherwise easily be a member of my friend circle). 

                      Yet another reason I wish I'd be making it to Mythcon this year. Alas!

                      -Alana

                      On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 7:15 PM, Berni Phillips <bernip@...> wrote:
                       

                      Linda, I’ve never met the man.  I’ve just read some of his books and his non-fiction/fannish writing.

                       

                      He seems like a great guy.  He’s the guy who had himself photographed in the ridiculous poses that are typically seen on covers with women, pointing out how non-ergonomic, painful, and ridiculous they truly are.  He writes on Live Journal under his name.  He’s got a wife and kids and seems firmly grounded in the real world and is passionate about making it better.

                       

                      Berni

                       

                       

                      From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Linda DeMars
                      Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2013 4:09 PM
                      To: mythsoc
                      Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Writers at Mythcon

                       




                      Berni's friend's book looks interesting. I'll have to look that up.

                       

                      Linda

                       

                      On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 6:57 PM, Berni Phillips <bernip@...> wrote:

                       

                      I know Jim Hines will also be there.  He has written some humorous fantasy from the point of view of an orc, a take-off on fairy tales, and his newest series (first book LIBRIOMANCER), is about a character who is able to reach inside books and extract  physical objects described in the text. 

                       

                      Berni

                       

                       

                      From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of WendellWag@...
                      Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2013 12:06 PM
                      To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [mythsoc] Writers at Mythcon

                       



                      The following is my usual list of writers at Mythcon this year for those attendees who (like me) would like to know what books to bring along to get signed.  For the purposes of this list, I'm counting anyone who has published a book or article that has some relationship to the Society's interests (i.e., the Inklings, fantasy, science fiction, mythology, etc.) except that I'm not counting those whose only publications were in Society journals.  I don't count publications in Society journals because that would include most people at Mythcon.  I don't count things not related to the Society's interests because, while I'm happy about your new book on tax law or particle physics, I don't want to include books that aren't likely to be brought to Mythcon.  Any additions, deletions, or corrections would be appreciated.

                       

                      Wendell Wagner

                       

                      ******************************************************************************************************************************

                       

                      Douglas Anderson

                      Franny Billingsley

                      David Bratman

                      Tim Callahan

                      Janet Croft

                      Leslie Donovan

                      Jason Fisher

                      Verlyn Flieger

                      Wayne Hammond

                      Carl Hostetter

                      Christina Scull

                      Arden Smith

                      Richard West

                      Donald Williams



                       







                      --
                      Alana Joli Abbott, Freelance Writer and Editor (http://www.virgilandbeatrice.com)
                      Author of Into the Reach and Departure http://tinyurl.com/aja-ebooks
                      Regaining Home is Kickstarted! http://tinyurl.com/kickstartregaininghome
                      Author of interactive novel Choice of Kung Fu http://tinyurl.com/aja-cog 
                      Contributor to Haunted: 11 Tales of Ghostly Horror http://tinyurl.com/haunted-aja
                      --
                      For updates on my writings, join my mailing list at http://groups.google.com/group/alanajoliabbottfans
                    • R.J. Anderson
                      Linda -- Might the story you remember be The Queen s Return by honorh? If so, it s here: http://honorh.livejournal.com/226358.html I don t normally read
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jun 18, 2013
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                        Linda --

                        Might the story you remember be "The Queen's Return" by honorh? If so, it's here: http://honorh.livejournal.com/226358.html

                        I don't normally read Narnia fanfic because it hurts too much when people get it wrong (and they usually do, sometimes nauseatingly so) but that one came recommended to me, and I was glad I gave it a chance.
                        --
                        Rebecca
                      • Linda DeMars
                        Thank you, Rebecca, so very much. That was the very story I was thinking of - I will not lose it again. That sounds much more likely Susan going to Hell for
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jun 18, 2013
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                          Thank you, Rebecca, so very much.  That was the very story I was thinking of - I will not lose it again.  That sounds much more likely Susan going to Hell for liking "lipstick and nylons"-- and does anyone remember that Lewis did not say that, Jill did.  It is amazing how often those who should know better wil insist that words and ideas put into a character's head or mouth are actually the beliefs of the author.  I remember showing a poem I had written to someone and having them say, "If you feel that way, you should go and see a therapist, " and I tried to explain that the words were not mine,  the person, in the poem, was speaking them or thinking them.

                          Thank you so much again. I am so happy to see this story.

                          Linda 


                          On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 10:17 AM, R.J. Anderson <rjawriter@...> wrote:
                           

                          Linda --

                          Might the story you remember be "The Queen's Return" by honorh? If so, it's here: http://honorh.livejournal.com/226358.html

                          I don't normally read Narnia fanfic because it hurts too much when people get it wrong (and they usually do, sometimes nauseatingly so) but that one came recommended to me, and I was glad I gave it a chance.
                          --
                          Rebecca


                        • John Rateliff
                          Also not to be forgotten in this context is Neil Gaiman s brilliant short story The Problem of Susan ; not sure which of his collections it appears in. --John
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jun 18, 2013
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                            Also not to be forgotten in this context is Neil Gaiman's brilliant short story "The Problem of Susan"; not sure which of his collections it appears in.
                               --John R. 


                            On Jun 18, 2013, at 7:17 AM, R.J. Anderson wrote:
                            Linda --

                            Might the story you remember be "The Queen's Return" by honorh? If so, it's here:http://honorh.livejournal.com/226358.html

                            I don't normally read Narnia fanfic because it hurts too much when people get it wrong (and they usually do, sometimes nauseatingly so) but that one came recommended to me, and I was glad I gave it a chance.
                            --
                            Rebecca

                          • David Bratman
                            ... Jill didn t say it either. Here s what Jill said: Oh Susan! she s interested in nothing now-a-days except nylons and lipstick and invitations. She always
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jun 18, 2013
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                              Linda DeMars wrote:

                              >That sounds much more likely Susan going
                              >to Hell for liking "lipstick and nylons"
                              >-- and does anyone remember that Lewis
                              >did not say that, Jill did.

                              Jill didn't say it either. Here's what Jill said:

                              "Oh Susan! she's interested in nothing now-a-days except nylons and lipstick and invitations. She always was a jolly sight too keen on being grown-up."

                              Do you see one word there about "going to Hell"?

                              Nor is really about lipstick and nylons in themselves. Susan is being accused of trivializing herself with trying to be "grown-up" (the opposite of _really_ growing up, as Polly immediately explains) and has thereby, as Peter and Eustace have previously stated, lost Narnia.

                              Susan's tragedy is that she's lost Narnia. She's not going to Hell thereby. Narnia is not Heaven. The lack of it is not Hell. And Susan may still have a chance to redeem herself.

                              >It is amazing how often those who should
                              >know better wil insist that words and
                              >ideas put into a character's head or mouth
                              >are actually the beliefs of the author.

                              Yes, it is. And it's also regrettable when the words and ideas of a character actually are those of the author, but readers willfully misread them. Lewis once compared readers to sheep: they'll always go through the wrong gate if you let them.
                            • Mem Morman
                              I think, David, that the going to hell bit comes when Susan doesn t get to come farther up and farther in as the other characters do in the Last Battle.
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jun 18, 2013
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                                I think, David, that the "going to hell" bit comes when Susan doesn't get to come "farther up and farther in" as the other characters do in the Last Battle.  If not "going to hell" then what is your interpretation?
                                Mem

                                On 6/18/2013 4:12 PM, David Bratman wrote:
                                 

                                Linda DeMars wrote:

                                >That sounds much more likely Susan going
                                >to Hell for liking "lipstick and nylons"
                                >-- and does anyone remember that Lewis
                                >did not say that, Jill did.

                                Jill didn't say it either. Here's what Jill said:

                                "Oh Susan! she's interested in nothing now-a-days except nylons and lipstick and invitations. She always was a jolly sight too keen on being grown-up."

                                Do you see one word there about "going to Hell"?

                                Nor is really about lipstick and nylons in themselves. Susan is being accused of trivializing herself with trying to be "grown-up" (the opposite of _really_ growing up, as Polly immediately explains) and has thereby, as Peter and Eustace have previously stated, lost Narnia.

                                Susan's tragedy is that she's lost Narnia. She's not going to Hell thereby. Narnia is not Heaven. The lack of it is not Hell. And Susan may still have a chance to redeem herself.

                                >It is amazing how often those who should
                                >know better wil insist that words and
                                >ideas put into a character's head or mouth
                                >are actually the beliefs of the author.

                                Yes, it is. And it's also regrettable when the words and ideas of a character actually are those of the author, but readers willfully misread them. Lewis once compared readers to sheep: they'll always go through the wrong gate if you let them.


                              • Linda DeMars
                                Oops, sorry. My mind moved ahead of the pen. I, in no way, meant or ever even thought that Jill was thinking Susan was going to Hell. I just was think about
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jun 18, 2013
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                                  Oops, sorry. My mind moved ahead of the pen. I,  in no way, meant or ever even thought that Jill was thinking Susan was going to Hell. I just was think about Jill speaking  with scorn about the lipstick and the nylons and was reminded of many pre-adolescent girls who have not quite gotten to the teen stage when dressing up can be very important and are prone to say things like  "she just is trying to get boys to look at her, ugh."   I was also thinking that those who lightly say Lewis was condemning Susan or anyone else certainly did not know Lewis very well or his work. The idea of condemning a person to Hell for a frivolous act of vanity would never have been in Lewis's mind - the idea and fact of Hell was a very serious matter to Lewis,  and he would have never presumed to say that was someone's destination. He left this to God.




                                  On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 6:12 PM, David Bratman <dbratman@...> wrote:
                                   

                                  Linda DeMars wrote:

                                  >That sounds much more likely Susan going
                                  >to Hell for liking "lipstick and nylons"
                                  >-- and does anyone remember that Lewis
                                  >did not say that, Jill did.

                                  Jill didn't say it either. Here's what Jill said:

                                  "Oh Susan! she's interested in nothing now-a-days except nylons and lipstick and invitations. She always was a jolly sight too keen on being grown-up."

                                  Do you see one word there about "going to Hell"?

                                  Nor is really about lipstick and nylons in themselves. Susan is being accused of trivializing herself with trying to be "grown-up" (the opposite of _really_ growing up, as Polly immediately explains) and has thereby, as Peter and Eustace have previously stated, lost Narnia.

                                  Susan's tragedy is that she's lost Narnia. She's not going to Hell thereby. Narnia is not Heaven. The lack of it is not Hell. And Susan may still have a chance to redeem herself.


                                  >It is amazing how often those who should
                                  >know better wil insist that words and
                                  >ideas put into a character's head or mouth
                                  >are actually the beliefs of the author.

                                  Yes, it is. And it's also regrettable when the words and ideas of a character actually are those of the author, but readers willfully misread them. Lewis once compared readers to sheep: they'll always go through the wrong gate if you let them.


                                • Grace Monk
                                  She isn t dead at the end of The Last Battle. That alone should show at hasn t gone to hell. There isn t a guarantee either way, true, but she isn t one of the
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jun 18, 2013
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                                    She isn't dead at the end of The Last Battle. That alone should show at hasn't gone to hell. There isn't a guarantee either way, true, but she isn't one of the ones in the train wreck, so her ending is not yet set.

                                    And vanity is a serious and very destructive state of being or sin or what have you. It can be deadly even. And the willful ejection of divine revelation is a pretty serious failure of love and a symbol of pride run horribly amuck. Susan's problems aren't small, although the signs of them seem to be rather trivialized by many readers...

                                    Grace Monk

                                    On Tuesday, June 18, 2013, Mem Morman wrote:
                                     

                                    I think, David, that the "going to hell" bit comes when Susan doesn't get to come "farther up and farther in" as the other characters do in the Last Battle.  If not "going to hell" then what is your interpretation?
                                    Mem

                                    On 6/18/2013 4:12 PM, David Bratman wrote:
                                     

                                    Linda DeMars wrote:

                                    >That sounds much more likely Susan going
                                    >to Hell for liking "lipstick and nylons"
                                    >-- and does anyone remember that Lewis
                                    >did not say that, Jill did.

                                    Jill didn't say it either. Here's what Jill said:

                                    "Oh Susan! she's interested in nothing now-a-days except nylons and lipstick and invitations. She always was a jolly sight too keen on being grown-up."

                                    Do you see one word there about "going to Hell"?

                                    Nor is really about lipstick and nylons in themselves. Susan is being accused of trivializing herself with trying to be "grown-up" (the opposite of _really_ growing up, as Polly immediately explains) and has thereby, as Peter and Eustace have previously stated, lost Narnia.

                                    Susan's tragedy is that she's lost Narnia. She's not going to Hell thereby. Narnia is not Heaven. The lack of it is not Hell. And Susan may still have a chance to redeem herself.

                                    >It is amazing how often those who should
                                    >know better wil insist that words and
                                    >ideas put into a character's head or mouth
                                    >are actually the beliefs of the author.

                                    Yes, it is. And it's also regrettable when the words and ideas of a character actually are those of the author, but readers willfully misread them. Lewis once compared readers to sheep: they'll always go through the wrong gate if you let them.


                                  • Grace Monk
                                    I can t type tonight, it seems! Ejection should read rejection. I shouldn t type on an iPad when I m tired. Please forgive my tangled fingers...
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jun 18, 2013
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                                      I can't type tonight, it seems! 

                                      Ejection should read rejection. I shouldn't type on an iPad when I'm tired. Please forgive my tangled fingers...

                                      On Tuesday, June 18, 2013, Grace Monk wrote:
                                      She isn't dead at the end of The Last Battle. That alone should show at hasn't gone to hell. There isn't a guarantee either way, true, but she isn't one of the ones in the train wreck, so her ending is not yet set.

                                      And vanity is a serious and very destructive state of being or sin or what have you. It can be deadly even. And the willful ejection of divine revelation is a pretty serious failure of love and a symbol of pride run horribly amuck. Susan's problems aren't small, although the signs of them seem to be rather trivialized by many readers...

                                      Grace Monk

                                      On Tuesday, June 18, 2013, Mem Morman wrote:
                                       

                                      I think, David, that the "going to hell" bit comes when Susan doesn't get to come "farther up and farther in" as the other characters do in the Last Battle.  If not "going to hell" then what is your interpretation?
                                      Mem

                                      On 6/18/2013 4:12 PM, David Bratman wrote:
                                       

                                      Linda DeMars wrote:

                                      >That sounds much more likely Susan going
                                      >to Hell for liking "lipstick and nylons"
                                      >-- and does anyone remember that Lewis
                                      >did not say that, Jill did.

                                      Jill didn't say it either. Here's what Jill said:

                                      "Oh Susan! she's interested in nothing now-a-days except nylons and lipstick and invitations. She always was a jolly sight too keen on being grown-up."

                                      Do you see one word there about "going to Hell"?

                                      Nor is really about lipstick and nylons in themselves. Susan is being accused of trivializing herself with trying to be "grown-up" (the opposite of _really_ growing up, as Polly immediately explains) and has thereby, as Peter and Eustace have previously stated, lost Narnia.

                                      Susan's tragedy is that she's lost Narnia. She's not going to Hell thereby. Narnia is not Heaven. The lack of it is not Hell. And Susan may still have a chance to redeem herself.

                                      >It is amazing how often those who should
                                      >know better wil insist that words and
                                      >ideas put into a character's head or mouth
                                      >are actually the beliefs of the author.

                                      Yes, it is. And it's also regrettable when the words and ideas of a character actually are those of the author, but readers willfully misread them. Lewis once compared readers to sheep: they'll always go through the wrong gate if you let them.


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                                    • Linda DeMars
                                      I left out than - trying to say the story of The Queen s Return seemed much more likely (or maybe comforting) THAN going to Hell to liking lipstick and
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Jun 18, 2013
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                                        I left out "than" - trying to say the story of The Queen's Return seemed much more likely (or maybe comforting) THAN going to Hell to liking lipstick and nylons---and I meant  Jill was the one who said the lips, nylons and invitations bit, not that Susan was condemned to Hell for that. As I said,  Jill's comment did remind me of a preteen girl.  


                                        I do agree with Grace that vanity and pride are not minor sins.

                                        Linda


                                        On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 10:32 PM, Grace Monk <gmariemonk@...> wrote:
                                         

                                        I can't type tonight, it seems! 


                                        Ejection should read rejection. I shouldn't type on an iPad when I'm tired. Please forgive my tangled fingers...


                                        On Tuesday, June 18, 2013, Grace Monk wrote:
                                        She isn't dead at the end of The Last Battle. That alone should show at hasn't gone to hell. There isn't a guarantee either way, true, but she isn't one of the ones in the train wreck, so her ending is not yet set.

                                        And vanity is a serious and very destructive state of being or sin or what have you. It can be deadly even. And the willful ejection of divine revelation is a pretty serious failure of love and a symbol of pride run horribly amuck. Susan's problems aren't small, although the signs of them seem to be rather trivialized by many readers...

                                        Grace Monk

                                        On Tuesday, June 18, 2013, Mem Morman wrote:
                                         

                                        I think, David, that the "going to hell" bit comes when Susan doesn't get to come "farther up and farther in" as the other characters do in the Last Battle.  If not "going to hell" then what is your interpretation?
                                        Mem

                                        On 6/18/2013 4:12 PM, David Bratman wrote:
                                         

                                        Linda DeMars wrote:

                                        >That sounds much more likely Susan going
                                        >to Hell for liking "lipstick and nylons"
                                        >-- and does anyone remember that Lewis
                                        >did not say that, Jill did.

                                        Jill didn't say it either. Here's what Jill said:

                                        "Oh Susan! she's interested in nothing now-a-days except nylons and lipstick and invitations. She always was a jolly sight too keen on being grown-up."

                                        Do you see one word there about "going to Hell"?

                                        Nor is really about lipstick and nylons in themselves. Susan is being accused of trivializing herself with trying to be "grown-up" (the opposite of _really_ growing up, as Polly immediately explains) and has thereby, as Peter and Eustace have previously stated, lost Narnia.

                                        Susan's tragedy is that she's lost Narnia. She's not going to Hell thereby. Narnia is not Heaven. The lack of it is not Hell. And Susan may still have a chance to redeem herself.

                                        >It is amazing how often those who should
                                        >know better wil insist that words and
                                        >ideas put into a character's head or mouth
                                        >are actually the beliefs of the author.

                                        Yes, it is. And it's also regrettable when the words and ideas of a character actually are those of the author, but readers willfully misread them. Lewis once compared readers to sheep: they'll always go through the wrong gate if you let them.


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                                      • David Bratman
                                        ... Further up and further in may mean going to Heaven - I think it s not actually quite that clear; it s more achieving a new stage of wondrous appreciation
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Jun 18, 2013
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                                          Mem Morman wrote:

                                          >I think, David, that the "going to hell"
                                          >bit comes when Susan doesn't get to come "farther up and farther
                                          >in" as the other characters do in the Last Battle. If not "going
                                          >to hell" then what is your interpretation?

                                          "Further up and further in" may mean going to Heaven - I think it's not actually quite that clear; it's more achieving a new stage of wondrous appreciation of Christian truth. But if it is going to Heaven, then not going "further up and further in" means not going to Heaven. It doesn't mean going to Hell. Remember that, unlike the others, Susan isn't dead, so she's not going anywhere at the moment.

                                          And my original point was that, regardless of any of this, Jill didn't say anything about it. At the time, neither Jill nor any of the others knows that their re-summoning to Narnia is because they're dead.
                                        • David Bratman
                                          ... I wrote that Susan has trivialized herself, and I hope you don t think I was thereby trivializing her problems. I meant that her problems took the form
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Jun 18, 2013
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                                            Grace Monk wrote:

                                            >And vanity is a serious and very destructive
                                            >state of being or sin or what have you. It can
                                            >be deadly even. And the willful ejection of
                                            >divine revelation is a pretty serious failure
                                            >of love and a symbol of pride run horribly
                                            >amuck. Susan's problems aren't small,
                                            >although the signs of them seem to be rather
                                            >trivialized by many readers...

                                            I wrote that "Susan has trivialized herself," and I hope you don't think I was thereby trivializing her problems. I meant that her problems took the form of her elevating the trivial and ignoring the important in her life.

                                            Her sins at this point are small, but you are correct that her potential problems are great. As Screwtape says, in luring the human soul to the devil's lair, "Murder is no better than cards if cards will do the trick." Susan's vanity, if not subsequently cured, will do that trick, and that is a fundamental belief of Lewis's that those who wish to excuse her follies ignore, since it's not a position that has much place in a worldview without a devil in it.
                                          • Kelly Brown
                                            Agreed. Besides, she s a teenager. She s lost perspective, as many teenagers do. For  most kids the  lipstick an nylons thing is just a phase, but I do
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Jun 20, 2013
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                                              Agreed. Besides, she's a teenager. She's lost perspective, as many teenagers do. For  most kids the  "lipstick an nylons" thing is just a phase, but I do understand what you're saying.



                                              From: David Bratman <dbratman@...>
                                              To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 4:12 PM
                                              Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Writers at Mythcon

                                               
                                              Linda DeMars wrote:

                                              >That sounds much more likely Susan going
                                              >to Hell for liking "lipstick and nylons"
                                              >-- and does anyone remember that Lewis
                                              >did not say that, Jill did.

                                              Jill didn't say it either. Here's what Jill said:

                                              "Oh Susan! she's interested in nothing now-a-days except nylons and lipstick and invitations. She always was a jolly sight too keen on being grown-up."

                                              Do you see one word there about "going to Hell"?

                                              Nor is really about lipstick and nylons in themselves. Susan is being accused of trivializing herself with trying to be "grown-up" (the opposite of _really_ growing up, as Polly immediately explains) and has thereby, as Peter and Eustace have previously stated, lost Narnia.

                                              Susan's tragedy is that she's lost Narnia. She's not going to Hell thereby. Narnia is not Heaven. The lack of it is not Hell. And Susan may still have a chance to redeem herself.

                                              >It is amazing how often those who should
                                              >know better wil insist that words and
                                              >ideas put into a character's head or mouth
                                              >are actually the beliefs of the author.

                                              Yes, it is. And it's also regrettable when the words and ideas of a character actually are those of the author, but readers willfully misread them. Lewis once compared readers to sheep: they'll always go through the wrong gate if you let them.



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