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Re: [mythsoc] Astarte and Mary

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  • Larry Swain
    I do not think that one can sustain a replacement theory or supplanted. For that to happen, one would expect to see them appearing reletively close in the
    Message 1 of 31 , Jun 10, 2013
      I do not think that one can sustain a "replacement theory" or "supplanted."  For that to happen, one would expect to see them appearing reletively close in the historical record and/or some kind of theological contention of competing beliefs and objects of worship.  But that is precisely what we don't see.  Astarte, as pointed out, is mentioned in Jeremiah; Mary isn't really called Queen of Heaven so far as I know until the 12th century CE.  That is, there is a rather large historical gap between Jeremiah's comments c. 600 BCE and Mary as Queen of Heaven c. 1150 CE; the temple at Elephantine which also worshipped Astarte as Yahweh's consort was finished as a Jewish temple in Egypt by 400 BCE.  So some 1500-1600 years separate Astarte as Queen of Heaven and the consort of the Almighty and Mary as Queen of Heaven because she is the MOTHER of God, aka. Jesus, King of Heaven.  Consort/spouse and mother are rather different relationships, or at least so one hopes.  So a long space of history, different relationships, different theologies, different and unrelated historical developements, etc. indicate to me that saying Mary "supplanted" Astarte is something that cannot be maintained.
      Larry Swain
      On Sun, Jun 9, 2013, at 10:54 PM, Jeanette Rost wrote:

      I see what you mean.  The "idea" of Mary as the Queen of Heaven supplanted the "idea"of Astarte as the Queen of Heaven.
      I had understood the message as something more like Mary ending up with Astarte's previous job, which was what made me wonder where the displaced Astarte ended up, as there likely wasn't much possible upward movement from Queen of Heaven!
      On 6/9/2013 10:47 PM, aveeris523 wrote:

      Somewhere Mary began to be referred to as the Queen of Heaven. In the Book of Jeremiah the Jewish people were warned to stop making crescent-shaped cakes in honor of the Queen of Heaven (who I believe was Astarte, maybe Ashtaroth. I'll need to check)
      In a message dated 06/09/13 13:46:31 Pacific Daylight Time, jrr@... writes:
      I was not aware that Mary replaced Astarte as the Queen of Heaven.
      What happened to Astarte?  (Since it probably wasn't a promotion!)

      http://www.fastmail.fm - IMAP accessible web-mail
    • Tony Zbaraschuk
      ... For that matter, there s Michael Witzel s _The Origins of the World s Mythologies_, which is grand synthesis on an almost unbelievable scale (myths,
      Message 31 of 31 , Jun 17, 2013
        On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 02:36:10PM -0700, John Rateliff wrote:
        > And it's just as interesting to see what current thinking among
        > the historians and archeologists and scientist is on some of these
        > same issues -- e.g., the recent Cunliffe and Koch volume CELTIC
        > FROM THE WEST, which I only learned about at this year's Kalamazoo,
        > challenges a lot of what I'd been taught about the origins of the
        > Celts and turns it on its head.

        For that matter, there's Michael Witzel's _The Origins of the World's
        Mythologies_, which is grand synthesis on an almost unbelievable
        scale (myths, linguistics, genetics -- all leading back to reconstructing
        common mythological structures and heading back into common elements
        among groups that have been separated since the colonization of
        Australia...) Just recently out, and very interesting.

        Tony Z

        Courage is a virtue. It does not follow that all
        courageous acts are in the service of virtuous ends.
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