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RE: [mythsoc] "… in defiance of Kipling"

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  • David Bratman
    OK, you can view the TS s Facebook page without having to join Facebook, but where on their page is it? -----Original Message----- From: Croft, Janet B.
    Message 1 of 5 , Jun 5, 2013
      OK, you can view the TS's Facebook page without having to join Facebook, but where on their page is it?

      -----Original Message-----
      From: "Croft, Janet B."
      Sent: Jun 5, 2013 1:27 PM
      To: "mythsoc@yahoogroups.com"
      Subject: RE: [mythsoc] "… in defiance of Kipling"



      John, there’s a whole thread on the Tolkien Society’s Facebook page about thing misattributed to Tolkien. It seems to be getting worse since the Hobbit movie.

       

      Janet Brennan Croft

      Editor of Mythlore http://www.mythsoc.org/mythlore.html

      “Almost as entertaining as the guy with a tank full of scorpions. But not quite.” OKC Mensa, after I lectured on Tolkien and war.

       

      From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Rateliff
      Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2013 3:08 PM
      To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [mythsoc] "… in defiance of Kipling"

       

       

      On Jun 5, 2013, at 12:25 PM, Margaret Dean wrote:

      No definite knowledge, but I can easily imagine how the quoted verse could be misattributed to Kipling, by Tolkien or anyone else.  It sounds just like one of his "Barrack-room Ballads" even if it isn't!

       

      Interesting. I'm not that familiar with Kipling's verse (of indeed most of his work intended for adults) and so hadn't picked up on the fact that it was a false quote. Thanks for the revelation, Pat. 

       

      Speaking of misattributing, came across an example of that this week while reading John Bremer's C. S. LEWIS, POETRY, AND THE GREAT WAR (one of the finalist for the Mythopoeic Award). At one point, speaking of Robert Graves' student days at Oxford, after he'd come back from the trenches, Bremer says: 

       

       

      "Graves found the English LIterature course tedious, especially the eighteenth century poets. The Anglo-Saxon lecturer (was it Tolkien?) was candid and said his subject was of purely linguistic interest, holding that there was little or no Anglo-Saxon writing that had any literary merit. Graves disagreed, admiring both "Beowulf" and "Judith".  (p. 149)

       

       

      I'd say "Almost certainly not!", given that Tolkien's great contribution to Old English studies was his insistence that works such as BEOWULF be read as literature, not just as historical or philological documents.  I can see the Lowell getting misascribed to Kipling, since it sounds rather Kiplingesque (esp. in its altered SECRET VICE form), but it's odd the un-Tolkienesque things that get ascribed to Tolkien.  Is that just the price of fame: folks attach unlikely stories to you?

       

      --John R.



    • Morgan Thomsen
      I believe this would be the relevant thread:
      Message 2 of 5 , Jun 5, 2013
        I believe this would be the relevant thread:

        https://www.facebook.com/groups/6522796067/permalink/10151634287276068/



        On INVALID "David Bratman" <dbratman@...> wrote:



        OK, you can view the TS's Facebook page without having to join Facebook,
        but where on their page is it?

        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: "Croft, Janet B." Sent: Jun 5, 2013 1:27 PM
        > To: "mythsoc@yahoogroups.com" Subject: RE: [mythsoc] "… in defiance
        > of Kipling"
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Janet Brennan Croft
        >
        > Editor of Mythlorehttp://www.mythsoc.org/mythlore.html
        >
        > “Almost as entertaining as the guy with a tank full of scorpions. But
        > not quite.” OKC Mensa, after I lectured on Tolkien and war.
        >
        >
        >
        > From:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On
        > Behalf OfJohn Rateliff
        > Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2013 3:08 PM
        > To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [mythsoc] "… in defiance of Kipling"
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > On Jun 5, 2013, at 12:25 PM, Margaret Dean wrote:
        >
        > > No definite knowledge, but I can easily imagine how the quoted verse
        > > could be misattributed to Kipling, by Tolkien or anyone else. It
        > > sounds just like one of his "Barrack-room Ballads" even if it isn't!
        >
        >
        >
        > Interesting. I'm not that familiar with Kipling's verse (of indeed
        > most of his work intended for adults) and so hadn't picked up on the
        > fact that it was a false quote. Thanks for the revelation, Pat.
        >
        >
        >
        > Speaking of misattributing, came across an example of that this week
        > while reading John Bremer's C. S. LEWIS, POETRY, AND THE GREAT WAR
        > (one of the finalist for the Mythopoeic Award). At one point, speaking
        > of Robert Graves' student days at Oxford, after he'd come back from
        > the trenches, Bremer says:
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > "Graves found the English LIterature course tedious, especially the
        > eighteenth century poets. The Anglo-Saxon lecturer (was it Tolkien?)
        > was candid and said his subject was of purely linguistic interest,
        > holding that there was little or no Anglo-Saxon writing that had any
        > literary merit. Graves disagreed, admiring both "Beowulf" and
        > "Judith". (p. 149)
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > I'd say "Almost certainly not!", given that Tolkien's great
        > contribution to Old English studies was his insistence that works such
        > as BEOWULF be read as literature, not just as historical or
        > philological documents. I can see the Lowell getting misascribed to
        > Kipling, since it sounds rather Kiplingesque (esp. in its altered
        > SECRET VICE form), but it's odd the un-Tolkienesque things that get
        > ascribed to Tolkien. Is that just the price of fame: folks attach
        > unlikely stories to you?
        >
        >
        >
        > --John R.
        >
        >
        >
        >




      • Morgan Thomsen
        Hm, sorry -- it appears like you need to be a FB member (and perhaps also a member of the TS page) to view the discussions. ... Hm, sorry -- it appears like
        Message 3 of 5 , Jun 5, 2013
          Hm, sorry -- it appears like you need to be a FB member (and perhaps also a member of the TS page) to view the discussions.

          On Jun 6, 2013 01:56 "Morgan Thomsen" <morgan@...> wrote:





          I believe this would be the relevant thread:



          <https://www.facebook.com/groups/6522796067/permalink/10151634287276068/
          >






          On INVALID "David Bratman" <dbratman@...> wrote:

          >
          >
          > OK, you can view the TS's Facebook page without having to join
          > Facebook,
          > but where on their page is it?
          >
          > > -----Original Message-----
          > > From: "Croft, Janet B." Sent: Jun 5, 2013 1:27 PM
          > > To: "mythsoc@yahoogroups.com" Subject: RE: [mythsoc] "… in defiance
          > > of Kipling"
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Janet Brennan Croft
          > >
          > > Editor of Mythlorehttp://www.mythsoc.org/mythlore.html
          > >
          > > “Almost as entertaining as the guy with a tank full of scorpions.
          > > But
          > > not quite.” OKC Mensa, after I lectured on Tolkien and war.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > From:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On
          > > Behalf OfJohn Rateliff
          > > Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2013 3:08 PM
          > > To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
          > > Subject: Re: [mythsoc] "… in defiance of Kipling"
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > On Jun 5, 2013, at 12:25 PM, Margaret Dean wrote:
          > >
          > > > No definite knowledge, but I can easily imagine how the quoted
          > > > verse
          > > > could be misattributed to Kipling, by Tolkien or anyone else. It
          > > > sounds just like one of his "Barrack-room Ballads" even if it
          > > > isn't!
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Interesting. I'm not that familiar with Kipling's verse (of indeed
          > > most of his work intended for adults) and so hadn't picked up on the
          > > fact that it was a false quote. Thanks for the revelation, Pat.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Speaking of misattributing, came across an example of that this week
          > > while reading John Bremer's C. S. LEWIS, POETRY, AND THE GREAT WAR
          > > (one of the finalist for the Mythopoeic Award). At one point,
          > > speaking
          > > of Robert Graves' student days at Oxford, after he'd come back from
          > > the trenches, Bremer says:
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > "Graves found the English LIterature course tedious, especially the
          > > eighteenth century poets. The Anglo-Saxon lecturer (was it Tolkien?)
          > > was candid and said his subject was of purely linguistic interest,
          > > holding that there was little or no Anglo-Saxon writing that had any
          > > literary merit. Graves disagreed, admiring both "Beowulf" and
          > > "Judith". (p. 149)
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > I'd say "Almost certainly not!", given that Tolkien's great
          > > contribution to Old English studies was his insistence that works
          > > such
          > > as BEOWULF be read as literature, not just as historical or
          > > philological documents. I can see the Lowell getting misascribed to
          > > Kipling, since it sounds rather Kiplingesque (esp. in its altered
          > > SECRET VICE form), but it's odd the un-Tolkienesque things that get
          > > ascribed to Tolkien. Is that just the price of fame: folks attach
          > > unlikely stories to you?
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > --John R.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >




        • Alana Joli Abbott
          ... Looks like just a FB member; I can see the discussion but am not a member of the page. (It s very amusing!) -Alana -- Alana Joli Abbott, Freelance Writer
          Message 4 of 5 , Jun 5, 2013
            On Wed, Jun 5, 2013 at 8:03 PM, Morgan Thomsen <morgan@...> wrote:
             

            Hm, sorry -- it appears like you need to be a FB member (and perhaps also a member of the TS page) to view the discussions.

            Looks like just a FB member; I can see the discussion but am not a member of the page. (It's very amusing!)

            -Alana

            --
            Alana Joli Abbott, Freelance Writer and Editor (http://www.virgilandbeatrice.com)
            Author of Into the Reach and Departure http://tinyurl.com/aja-ebooks
            Regaining Home is Kickstarted! http://tinyurl.com/kickstartregaininghome
            Author of interactive novel Choice of Kung Fu http://tinyurl.com/aja-cog 
            Contributor to Haunted: 11 Tales of Ghostly Horror http://tinyurl.com/haunted-aja
            --
            For updates on my writings, join my mailing list at http://groups.google.com/group/alanajoliabbottfans
          • IcelofAngeln
            Bremer notwithstanding, this conversation it seems was a figment of someone s imagination, in addition to completely inverting Tolkien s views: Graves went up
            Message 5 of 5 , Jun 15, 2013
              Bremer notwithstanding, this conversation it seems was a figment of someone's imagination, in addition to completely inverting Tolkien's views: Graves went up to Oxford in fall 1919, when Tolkien was not on the faculty at all but a staffer on the Dictionary; Graves left Oxford before Tolkien was elected P of A-S.

              Letter No. 267 (Jan 1965) strongly implies that Tolkien had never met Graves 'in his youth:' "A remarkable creature, entertaining, likeable, odd, bonnet full of wild bees, half-German, half-Irish, very tall, must have looked like Siegfried/Sigurd in his youth, but an Ass."

              (Note: The Professorship of Poetry which Graves held at the time was and is not really a faculty position, but a thrice-yearly guest lecturer gig).
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