Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [mythsoc] The Fall of Arthur

Expand Messages
  • Jeanette Rost
    John, There was a report on local radio yesterday that people (at least here in Texas) are going to be refunded for being overcharged on ebooks - seems some of
    Message 1 of 25 , May 24, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      John,

      There was a report on local radio yesterday that people (at least here in Texas) are going to be refunded for being overcharged on ebooks - seems some of the companies got together to fix prices, and that's how ebooks came to cost more than paper - even hardback - books.

      Jeanette


      On 5/24/2013 6:17 AM, John Davis wrote:
       

      Not yet, but you've just prompted me to go get a copy; thanks. And interestingly, the hardback copy is cheaper than the Kindle version. Go figure.
       
      Looking foward to seeing how it compares with Williams' treatment of the myth.
       
      John
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 7:39 AM
      Subject: [mythsoc] The Fall of Arthur

       

      So, anybody else read THE FALL OF ARTHUR yet?

      Biggest surprise for me was the revelation that in it Tolkien linked up the Arthurian story to his legendarium.

      That, and his giving us in Guinevere what I think is his most negative portrayal of a female character.

      Not to mention that now we'll have to qualify statements about his depiction of the Angles and Saxons in his work by taking into account their treatment here -- at one point he has King Arthur playing pretty much the role the Romans play in Wm Morris's HOUSE OF THE WOLFINGS, wh. I wdn't have expected.

      Plus, of course, the fact that just judged as poetry there are some memorable lines (the best of which, describing Guinevere, was quoted long ago by Carpenter: "fair as fay-woman and fell-minded, in the world walking for the woe of men").

      I think this one's going to take a while for people to absorb, but once they do that it'll be judged a major work. Guess we'll see. I know I'm already looking forward to leisurely re-reading it, more slowly this time.

      --John R.


    • Alana Joli Abbott
      John, regarding Williams s work on Arthur, where are those poems currently in print, do you know? A quick Amazon search showed only out-of-print editions, but
      Message 2 of 25 , May 24, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        John, regarding Williams's work on Arthur, where are those poems currently in print, do you know? A quick Amazon search showed only out-of-print editions, but I may not be going about the search the right way.

        It will be interesting to compare!

        -Alana

        On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 7:17 AM, John Davis <john@...> wrote:
         

        Not yet, but you've just prompted me to go get a copy; thanks. And interestingly, the hardback copy is cheaper than the Kindle version. Go figure.
         
        Looking foward to seeing how it compares with Williams' treatment of the myth.
         
        John


        --
        Alana Joli Abbott, Freelance Writer and Editor (http://www.virgilandbeatrice.com)
        Author of Into the Reach and Departure http://tinyurl.com/aja-ebooks
        Regaining Home is Kickstarted! http://tinyurl.com/kickstartregaininghome
        Author of interactive novel Choice of Kung Fu http://tinyurl.com/aja-cog 
        Contributor to Haunted: 11 Tales of Ghostly Horror http://tinyurl.com/haunted-aja
        --
        For updates on my writings, join my mailing list at http://groups.google.com/group/alanajoliabbottfans
      • Travis Buchanan
        The Williams poems are not currently in print, to my understanding. Finding a copy of the 1974 Eerdmans edition is your best bet: Williams, Charles, and C. S.
        Message 3 of 25 , May 24, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          The Williams poems are not currently in print, to my understanding. Finding a copy of the 1974 Eerdmans edition is your best bet:

          Williams, Charles, and C. S. Lewis. Taliessin through Logres, The Region of the Summer Stars and Arthurian Torso. One-volume edition. Grand Rapids, MI: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1974.


          Travis


          On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 4:43 PM, Alana Joli Abbott <alanajoli@...> wrote:
           

          John, regarding Williams's work on Arthur, where are those poems currently in print, do you know? A quick Amazon search showed only out-of-print editions, but I may not be going about the search the right way.


          It will be interesting to compare!

          -Alana


          On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 7:17 AM, John Davis <john@...> wrote:
           

          Not yet, but you've just prompted me to go get a copy; thanks. And interestingly, the hardback copy is cheaper than the Kindle version. Go figure.
           
          Looking foward to seeing how it compares with Williams' treatment of the myth.
           
          John


          --
          Alana Joli Abbott, Freelance Writer and Editor (http://www.virgilandbeatrice.com)
          Author of Into the Reach and Departure http://tinyurl.com/aja-ebooks
          Regaining Home is Kickstarted! http://tinyurl.com/kickstartregaininghome
          Author of interactive novel Choice of Kung Fu http://tinyurl.com/aja-cog 
          Contributor to Haunted: 11 Tales of Ghostly Horror http://tinyurl.com/haunted-aja
          --
          For updates on my writings, join my mailing list at http://groups.google.com/group/alanajoliabbottfans


        • Alana Joli Abbott
          Thanks, Travis! -Alana ... -- Alana Joli Abbott, Freelance Writer and Editor ( http://www.virgilandbeatrice.com) Author of *Into the Reach* and *Departure
          Message 4 of 25 , May 24, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            Thanks, Travis! 

            -Alana

            On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 11:48 AM, Travis Buchanan <travisbuck7@...> wrote:
             

            The Williams poems are not currently in print, to my understanding. Finding a copy of the 1974 Eerdmans edition is your best bet:

            Williams, Charles, and C. S. Lewis. Taliessin through Logres, The Region of the Summer Stars and Arthurian Torso. One-volume edition. Grand Rapids, MI: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1974.


            Travis


            On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 4:43 PM, Alana Joli Abbott <alanajoli@...> wrote:
             

            John, regarding Williams's work on Arthur, where are those poems currently in print, do you know? A quick Amazon search showed only out-of-print editions, but I may not be going about the search the right way.


            It will be interesting to compare!

            -Alana


            On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 7:17 AM, John Davis <john@...> wrote:
             

            Not yet, but you've just prompted me to go get a copy; thanks. And interestingly, the hardback copy is cheaper than the Kindle version. Go figure.
             
            Looking foward to seeing how it compares with Williams' treatment of the myth.
             
            John


            --
            Alana Joli Abbott, Freelance Writer and Editor (http://www.virgilandbeatrice.com)
            Author of Into the Reach and Departure http://tinyurl.com/aja-ebooks
            Regaining Home is Kickstarted! http://tinyurl.com/kickstartregaininghome
            Author of interactive novel Choice of Kung Fu http://tinyurl.com/aja-cog 
            Contributor to Haunted: 11 Tales of Ghostly Horror http://tinyurl.com/haunted-aja
            --
            For updates on my writings, join my mailing list at http://groups.google.com/group/alanajoliabbottfans





            --
            Alana Joli Abbott, Freelance Writer and Editor (http://www.virgilandbeatrice.com)
            Author of Into the Reach and Departure http://tinyurl.com/aja-ebooks
            Regaining Home is Kickstarted! http://tinyurl.com/kickstartregaininghome
            Author of interactive novel Choice of Kung Fu http://tinyurl.com/aja-cog 
            Contributor to Haunted: 11 Tales of Ghostly Horror http://tinyurl.com/haunted-aja
            --
            For updates on my writings, join my mailing list at http://groups.google.com/group/alanajoliabbottfans
          • John Rateliff
            ... Huh. That s weird, but fortuitous. ... One thing this edition does definitely establish is that Tolkien abandoned THE FALL OF ARTHUR (by the end of 1934)
            Message 5 of 25 , May 24, 2013
            • 0 Attachment

              On May 24, 2013, at 4:17 AM, John Davis wrote:
              Not yet, but you've just prompted me to go get a copy; thanks. And interestingly, the hardback copy is cheaper than the Kindle version. Go figure.

              Huh. That's weird, but fortuitous.

              Looking forward to seeing how it compares with Williams' treatment of the myth.

              One thing this edition does definitely establish is that Tolkien abandoned THE FALL OF ARTHUR (by the end of 1934) before he'd ever even met Williams (in 1936), making it all but certain that there's no influence from CW's work on Tolkien's poem. Having read all CW's Arthurian material, I'd say they were worlds apart with virtually no point of contact.   It'd be interesting to know it JRRT ever let CW read his poem, but no evidence for that so far as I know. We do know Tolkien loaned it to R. W. Chambers, and E. V. Gordon, and C. S. L. , all of whom thought highly of it.


              On May 24, 2013, at 5:53 AM, Mich wrote:
              I have not red this but I wonder if it is out in audio? also to your quote by carpinter do you meen humphrey carpinter? his byographey of Tolkien was the best that I have ever red. from Mich.

              No audiobook so far as I know, more's the pity. Yes, I meant Humphrey Carpenter, who devotes the better part of a  page in his 1977 biography to the poem (p.168-169), quoting two brief passages.


              On May 24, 2013, at 5:26 AM, scribbler@... wrote:
              I've been looking forward to this, wondering about what his approach to
              the Arthurian legends would be specifically. Mainly because any revision
              of my old Mythcon paper "A Myth for Angle-land" would have to include
              consideration of the poem.

              Hm! I'd be interested in reading that one. The opening Canto of the poem actually takes place on the continent, where Arthur has carried the war to the Saxon and other Germanic tribes' homelands in a preemptive strike to the very edge of Mirkwood (this being Tolkien's version of the 'Emperor Lucius' story).



              On May 24, 2013, at 6:46 AM, Doug Kane wrote:
              I've read the poem, but I have not yet read the secondary material.  I found it quite powerful, and quite a bit more accessible than S&G.

              I agree, but don't know how much of that is our all having grown up familiar with the Arthurian story (Arthur, Gawain, Guinevere, Lancelot, Mordred) in a way we're not with Sigurd, Gudrun, Brynhild, Fafnir, et al.


              --JDR




            • John Rateliff
              Hi Andrew. Hope both the thesis and Dimitra are both doing well. A long ride through Arthur country sounds like the perfect backdrop for the book. Hadn t
              Message 6 of 25 , May 24, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Andrew. Hope both the thesis and Dimitra are both doing well. A long ride through Arthur country sounds like the perfect backdrop for the book. 
                   Hadn't thought about the 'dark lord' overtones. Perhaps Tolkien's way of hinting that pure evil no longer walks the earth, its place being taken by 'the evil that men do'? That we no longer have THE Dark Lord but only dark lords (which, or course, are bad enough)?
                   Agree that he does a good job with Mordred, who's usually left a cypher. But then I'd say he makes each of the major characters like a real person insofar as their motivations drive their acts in a believable manner. The biggest flaw in Williams' Arthuriad, for me, is the fact that he's really not interested in Arthur, whom he makes a remote and not v. interesting sort of chairman-of-the-board figure who plays v. little role in the cycle. Tolkien doesn't make that mistake.

                --John R.


                On May 24, 2013, at 7:06 AM, Andrew Higgins wrote:
                John

                Yesterday thanks to a train ride to and from Cardiff to meet my Postgraduate Research supervior (Dr. Dimitra Fimi) on the progress of my Tolkien thesis I had the chance to do a complete first read of The Fall of Arthur as I travelled through 'the walls of Wales.'

                Like you John I was completly blown away by Tolkien's plans (sadly not completed) to link the poem to his mythology and the Lost Literature of Faerie.  The idea of linking Arthur (and Lancelot!) to Earende/Wingelotl and going into the West is quite interesting (love how Tolkien completely dismisses the Glastonbery element). I kept thinking of the hermit they visit before going to the west as Cirdan the Shipwright at the Grey Havens!  Also the occurance of the name Avallone in the mythology as an alternative name for Tol-Eressea around the time Tolkien was working on Fall of Arthur is quite interesting and needs more investigation (I also wonder if and how this might link to the older names Arvalin (a later name for Habbanan) as in 'the wide plains of Arvalin (Lost Tales 1, p.70) also listed in the Qenya Lexicon and if this was also an Arthurian inspired early idea - more grist for the thesis!

                The actual poem is brilliant and I find it interesting that Tolkien focuses so much on the character of Mordred (who has always been a very shadowy character - except  in the musical Camelot where he gets to sing 'The Seven Deadly Virtues.  Tolkien's Mordred seems to have a lot of the dark lord about him - he watches from towers and he goes to the East to lead an army against Arthur.  On my second read I will pay more attention to this.

                A book that was worth the wait and the commentary Christopher gives linking the poem to both the Arthurian tradition and the the ermeging mythology is invaluable.

                Second read to come this weekend!

                Best, Andy

                 


                On May 24, 2013, at 07:39 AM, John Rateliff <sacnoth@...> wrote:

                 

                So, anybody else read THE FALL OF ARTHUR yet?

                Biggest surprise for me was the revelation that in it Tolkien linked up the Arthurian story to his legendarium.

                That, and his giving us in Guinevere what I think is his most negative portrayal of a female character.

                Not to mention that now we'll have to qualify statements about his depiction of the Angles and Saxons in his work by taking into account their treatment here -- at one point he has King Arthur playing pretty much the role the Romans play in Wm Morris's HOUSE OF THE WOLFINGS, wh. I wdn't have expected.

                Plus, of course, the fact that just judged as poetry there are some memorable lines (the best of which, describing Guinevere, was quoted long ago by Carpenter: "fair as fay-woman and fell-minded, in the world walking for the woe of men").

                I think this one's going to take a while for people to absorb, but once they do that it'll be judged a major work. Guess we'll see. I know I'm already looking forward to leisurely re-reading it, more slowly this time.

                --John R.


              • John Rateliff
                ... Hi Jeanette Actually, the Arthurian legend starts out as Welsh. Then it gets picked up in two separate strands by the French (Chretien) and English
                Message 7 of 25 , May 24, 2013
                • 0 Attachment

                  On May 24, 2013, at 7:55 AM, Jeanette Rost wrote:
                  Didn't Tolkien say that one of the reasons he wrote "The Lord of the Rings" was that England had been overrun so many times by so many enemies that her myths and legends had been lost, and so he wrote a new legend for England?  Of course, the first thing that would spring to most people's minds after reading that would be,  "But what about King Arthur?"  Although I have not researched it, I have read in several places that the Arthurian legend originated with "Le Morte d'Arthur" and is actually French, not English, which would explain why Tolkien apparently did not consider it to be the one English legend that was not lost.

                  Hi Jeanette

                  Actually, the Arthurian legend starts out as Welsh. Then it gets picked up in two separate strands by the French (Chretien) and English (Layamon). Tolkien is bringing both together here into a fused tradition of his own, similar to what Malory had done. So Malory's LE MORTE D'ARTHUR (1485) actually comes at the end of a long tradition, and pretty much everything in English written after it follows its lead to some extent.

                  Re. Arthur and 'the Mythology for England', Tolkien was pointing out (in the Letter to Waldman) that it's hard to make Arthur an English hero since it's the English (Angles, +Saxons, + Jutes) who Arthur's fighting in the earliest versions of the story. It'd be like the English destroying the Iroquis confederation and then making Hiawatha the great American hero. And yet that's pretty much exactly what happened with the King Arthur legend: the people who embrace it are by and large descendents of Arthur's enemies. Weird, huh?


                  There are definite similarities in Tolkien and the Arthurian legend - perhaps they could be reduced to "decency does matter" - but I am surprised to read that Tolkien linked his work to the Arthurian story.

                  I think the take-away from THE FALL OF ARTHUR might be 'don't let pride blind you to your true loyalties'



                  On May 24, 2013, at 8:43 AM, Alana Joli Abbott wrote:
                  John, regarding Williams's work on Arthur, where are those poems currently in print, do you know? A quick Amazon search showed only out-of-print editions, but I may not be going about the search the right way.

                  It will be interesting to compare!


                  As Travis says, the Eerdmans edition is probably your best bet, via bookfinder.com or abebooks.com. This reprints the second and third of Williams' Arthurian books, TALIESSIN THROUGH LOGRES (1938) and THE REGION OF THE SUMMER STARS (1944), as well as the unfinished prose history/summary of the Arthurian legend (THE FIGURE OF ARTHUR) Wms was working on when he died and CSL's extensive commentary on Wms' cycle (WILLIAMS AND THE ARTHURIAD), both of which had been published under the title ARTHURIAN TORSO (1948).

                  The first in the cycle, HEROES AND KINGS (1930), is more or less impossible to get (I only have a partial photocopy myself). Be warned that it includes a bondage poem (illustrated!); Wms' religiosity cd sometimes take him into strange places (cf. Lois Lang-Sims' little memoir). 

                  All these, and more, are collected by David Llewellyn Dodds in a volume in the series ARTHURIAN POETS simplely called CHARLES WILLIAMS (Boydell & Brewer, 1991). Unfortunately this is fairly hard to find, but you may be able to get it through Interlibrary Loan and the like.

                  By the way, if you do find the Eerdmans volume, feel free to ignore Lewis's advice about his recommended order to read the poems in, which suggests mixing them together from both books. Far better, I found, to just read each book through in its entirety; the order in which the poems were written instead of their correlation to the external chronology of the Arthurian cycle. Whatever works best for you.

                  Hope this helps.

                  --JDR







                • Jeanette Rost
                  So whichever authors I read who said that the Arthurian legend was originally French were wrong about that. And frankly, I thought at the time that it sounded
                  Message 8 of 25 , May 24, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    So whichever authors I read who said that the Arthurian legend was originally French were wrong about that.  And frankly, I thought at the time that it sounded odd, but I've just never gotten around to hunting down the story's "pedigree."

                    "I think the take-away from THE FALL OF ARTHUR might be 'don't let pride blind you to your true loyalties' " might be a sub-category under the more general category of "decency does matter."  Although "decency matters most" might be a better phrase.

                    Jeanette





                    On 5/24/2013 2:03 PM, John Rateliff wrote:
                     


                    On May 24, 2013, at 7:55 AM, Jeanette Rost wrote:
                    Didn't Tolkien say that one of the reasons he wrote "The Lord of the Rings" was that England had been overrun so many times by so many enemies that her myths and legends had been lost, and so he wrote a new legend for England?  Of course, the first thing that would spring to most people's minds after reading that would be,  "But what about King Arthur?"  Although I have not researched it, I have read in several places that the Arthurian legend originated with "Le Morte d'Arthur" and is actually French, not English, which would explain why Tolkien apparently did not consider it to be the one English legend that was not lost.

                    Hi Jeanette

                    Actually, the Arthurian legend starts out as Welsh. Then it gets picked up in two separate strands by the French (Chretien) and English (Layamon). Tolkien is bringing both together here into a fused tradition of his own, similar to what Malory had done. So Malory's LE MORTE D'ARTHUR (1485) actually comes at the end of a long tradition, and pretty much everything in English written after it follows its lead to some extent.

                    Re. Arthur and 'the Mythology for England', Tolkien was pointing out (in the Letter to Waldman) that it's hard to make Arthur an English hero since it's the English (Angles, +Saxons, + Jutes) who Arthur's fighting in the earliest versions of the story. It'd be like the English destroying the Iroquis confederation and then making Hiawatha the great American hero. And yet that's pretty much exactly what happened with the King Arthur legend: the people who embrace it are by and large descendents of Arthur's enemies. Weird, huh?


                    There are definite similarities in Tolkien and the Arthurian legend - perhaps they could be reduced to "decency does matter" - but I am surprised to read that Tolkien linked his work to the Arthurian story.

                    I think the take-away from THE FALL OF ARTHUR might be 'don't let pride blind you to your true loyalties'



                    On May 24, 2013, at 8:43 AM, Alana Joli Abbott wrote:
                    John, regarding Williams's work on Arthur, where are those poems currently in print, do you know? A quick Amazon search showed only out-of-print editions, but I may not be going about the search the right way.

                    It will be interesting to compare!


                    As Travis says, the Eerdmans edition is probably your best bet, via bookfinder.com or abebooks.com. This reprints the second and third of Williams' Arthurian books, TALIESSIN THROUGH LOGRES (1938) and THE REGION OF THE SUMMER STARS (1944), as well as the unfinished prose history/summary of the Arthurian legend (THE FIGURE OF ARTHUR) Wms was working on when he died and CSL's extensive commentary on Wms' cycle (WILLIAMS AND THE ARTHURIAD), both of which had been published under the title ARTHURIAN TORSO (1948).

                    The first in the cycle, HEROES AND KINGS (1930), is more or less impossible to get (I only have a partial photocopy myself). Be warned that it includes a bondage poem (illustrated!); Wms' religiosity cd sometimes take him into strange places (cf. Lois Lang-Sims' little memoir). 

                    All these, and more, are collected by David Llewellyn Dodds in a volume in the series ARTHURIAN POETS simplely called CHARLES WILLIAMS (Boydell & Brewer, 1991). Unfortunately this is fairly hard to find, but you may be able to get it through Interlibrary Loan and the like.

                    By the way, if you do find the Eerdmans volume, feel free to ignore Lewis's advice about his recommended order to read the poems in, which suggests mixing them together from both books. Far better, I found, to just read each book through in its entirety; the order in which the poems were written instead of their correlation to the external chronology of the Arthurian cycle. Whatever works best for you.

                    Hope this helps.

                    --JDR








                  • Jeanette Rost
                    Sorry, I forgot to address this post to John: So whichever authors I read who said that the Arthurian legend was originally French were wrong about that. And
                    Message 9 of 25 , May 24, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Sorry, I forgot to address this post to John:

                      So whichever authors I read who said that the Arthurian legend was originally French were wrong about that.  And frankly, I thought at the time that it sounded odd, but I've just never gotten around to hunting down the story's "pedigree."

                      "I think the take-away from THE FALL OF ARTHUR might be 'don't let pride blind you to your true loyalties' " might be a sub-category under the more general category of "decency does matter."  Although "decency matters most" might be a better phrase.

                      Jeanette


                      On 5/24/2013 2:03 PM, John Rateliff wrote:
                       


                      On May 24, 2013, at 7:55 AM, Jeanette Rost wrote:
                      Didn't Tolkien say that one of the reasons he wrote "The Lord of the Rings" was that England had been overrun so many times by so many enemies that her myths and legends had been lost, and so he wrote a new legend for England?  Of course, the first thing that would spring to most people's minds after reading that would be,  "But what about King Arthur?"  Although I have not researched it, I have read in several places that the Arthurian legend originated with "Le Morte d'Arthur" and is actually French, not English, which would explain why Tolkien apparently did not consider it to be the one English legend that was not lost.

                      Hi Jeanette

                      Actually, the Arthurian legend starts out as Welsh. Then it gets picked up in two separate strands by the French (Chretien) and English (Layamon). Tolkien is bringing both together here into a fused tradition of his own, similar to what Malory had done. So Malory's LE MORTE D'ARTHUR (1485) actually comes at the end of a long tradition, and pretty much everything in English written after it follows its lead to some extent.

                      Re. Arthur and 'the Mythology for England', Tolkien was pointing out (in the Letter to Waldman) that it's hard to make Arthur an English hero since it's the English (Angles, +Saxons, + Jutes) who Arthur's fighting in the earliest versions of the story. It'd be like the English destroying the Iroquis confederation and then making Hiawatha the great American hero. And yet that's pretty much exactly what happened with the King Arthur legend: the people who embrace it are by and large descendents of Arthur's enemies. Weird, huh?


                      There are definite similarities in Tolkien and the Arthurian legend - perhaps they could be reduced to "decency does matter" - but I am surprised to read that Tolkien linked his work to the Arthurian story.

                      I think the take-away from THE FALL OF ARTHUR might be 'don't let pride blind you to your true loyalties'



                      On May 24, 2013, at 8:43 AM, Alana Joli Abbott wrote:
                      John, regarding Williams's work on Arthur, where are those poems currently in print, do you know? A quick Amazon search showed only out-of-print editions, but I may not be going about the search the right way.

                      It will be interesting to compare!


                      As Travis says, the Eerdmans edition is probably your best bet, via bookfinder.com or abebooks.com. This reprints the second and third of Williams' Arthurian books, TALIESSIN THROUGH LOGRES (1938) and THE REGION OF THE SUMMER STARS (1944), as well as the unfinished prose history/summary of the Arthurian legend (THE FIGURE OF ARTHUR) Wms was working on when he died and CSL's extensive commentary on Wms' cycle (WILLIAMS AND THE ARTHURIAD), both of which had been published under the title ARTHURIAN TORSO (1948).

                      The first in the cycle, HEROES AND KINGS (1930), is more or less impossible to get (I only have a partial photocopy myself). Be warned that it includes a bondage poem (illustrated!); Wms' religiosity cd sometimes take him into strange places (cf. Lois Lang-Sims' little memoir). 

                      All these, and more, are collected by David Llewellyn Dodds in a volume in the series ARTHURIAN POETS simplely called CHARLES WILLIAMS (Boydell & Brewer, 1991). Unfortunately this is fairly hard to find, but you may be able to get it through Interlibrary Loan and the like.

                      By the way, if you do find the Eerdmans volume, feel free to ignore Lewis's advice about his recommended order to read the poems in, which suggests mixing them together from both books. Far better, I found, to just read each book through in its entirety; the order in which the poems were written instead of their correlation to the external chronology of the Arthurian cycle. Whatever works best for you.

                      Hope this helps.

                      --JDR










                    • Alana Joli Abbott
                      ... John, thanks for this and the further detailed comments! Very informative, and I ll definitely give a try to hunting them down. (After I ve finished doing
                      Message 10 of 25 , May 24, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment
                        As Travis says, the Eerdmans edition is probably your best bet, via bookfinder.com or abebooks.com. This reprints the second and third of Williams' Arthurian books, TALIESSIN THROUGH LOGRES (1938) and THE REGION OF THE SUMMER STARS (1944), as well as the unfinished prose history/summary of the Arthurian legend (THE FIGURE OF ARTHUR) Wms was working on when he died and CSL's extensive commentary on Wms' cycle (WILLIAMS AND THE ARTHURIAD), both of which had been published under the title ARTHURIAN TORSO (1948).

                        John, thanks for this and the further detailed comments! Very informative, and I'll definitely give a try to hunting them down. (After I've finished doing the jury reading for the MFAs of course!)

                        Best,
                        Alana


                        --
                        Alana Joli Abbott, Freelance Writer and Editor (http://www.virgilandbeatrice.com)
                        Author of Into the Reach and Departure http://tinyurl.com/aja-ebooks
                        Regaining Home is Kickstarted! http://tinyurl.com/kickstartregaininghome
                        Author of interactive novel Choice of Kung Fu http://tinyurl.com/aja-cog 
                        Contributor to Haunted: 11 Tales of Ghostly Horror http://tinyurl.com/haunted-aja
                        --
                        For updates on my writings, join my mailing list at http://groups.google.com/group/alanajoliabbottfans
                      • Mike Foster
                        John Rateliff is (as usual) right. This work will be honored as one of Tolkien’s finest; it begs to be read aloud, loud aloud. In some of the best passages,
                        Message 11 of 25 , May 25, 2013
                        • 0 Attachment
                          John Rateliff is (as usual) right.  This work will be honored as one of Tolkien’s finest; it begs to be read aloud, loud aloud. 
                           
                          In some of the best passages, one hears JRRT reading “The Ride of the Rohirrim” in George Sayer’s recordings.
                           
                          Because of the death of a longtime (since 1961) friend, visits of commiseration, writings eulogics, hosting visitors &c., I am only as far as canto 5.  I’m eschewing all the notes and commentary so far.
                           
                          Moreover, Far Westfarthing smial is reading Charles Williams’ The Place of the Lion for our May 31 meeting.  I’m up to Ch. 5.
                           
                          I read Tolkien, then I read Williams.
                           
                          Tolkien is better.
                           
                          Mike
                           
                           
                           
                          Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 9:06 AM
                          Subject: Re: [mythsoc] The Fall of Arthur
                           
                          John

                          Yesterday thanks to a train ride to and from Cardiff to meet my Postgraduate Research supervior (Dr. Dimitra Fimi) on the progress of my Tolkien thesis I had the chance to do a complete first read of The Fall of Arthur as I travelled through 'the walls of Wales.'

                          Like you John I was completly blown away by Tolkien's plans (sadly not completed) to link the poem to his mythology and the Lost Literature of Faerie.  The idea of linking Arthur (and Lancelot!) to Earende/Wingelotl and going into the West is quite interesting (love how Tolkien completely dismisses the Glastonbery element). I kept thinking of the hermit they visit before going to the west as Cirdan the Shipwright at the Grey Havens!  Also the occurance of the name Avallone in the mythology as an alternative name for Tol-Eressea around the time Tolkien was working on Fall of Arthur is quite interesting and needs more investigation (I also wonder if and how this might link to the older names Arvalin (a later name for Habbanan) as in 'the wide plains of Arvalin (Lost Tales 1, p.70) also listed in the Qenya Lexicon and if this was also an Arthurian inspired early idea - more grist for the thesis!

                          The actual poem is brilliant and I find it interesting that Tolkien focuses so much on the character of Mordred (who has always been a very shadowy character - except  in the musical Camelot where he gets to sing 'The Seven Deadly Virtues.  Tolkien's Mordred seems to have a lot of the dark lord about him - he watches from towers and he goes to the East to lead an army against Arthur.  On my second read I will pay more attention to this.

                          A book that was worth the wait and the commentary Christopher gives linking the poem to both the Arthurian tradition and the the ermeging mythology is invaluable.

                          Second read to come this weekend!

                          Best, Andy

                           



                          On May 24, 2013, at 07:39 AM, John Rateliff <sacnoth@...> wrote:

                           

                          So, anybody else read THE FALL OF ARTHUR yet?

                          Biggest surprise for me was the revelation that in it Tolkien linked up the Arthurian story to his legendarium.

                          That, and his giving us in Guinevere what I think is his most negative portrayal of a female character.

                          Not to mention that now we'll have to qualify statements about his depiction of the Angles and Saxons in his work by taking into account their treatment here -- at one point he has King Arthur playing pretty much the role the Romans play in Wm Morris's HOUSE OF THE WOLFINGS, wh. I wdn't have expected.

                          Plus, of course, the fact that just judged as poetry there are some memorable lines (the best of which, describing Guinevere, was quoted long ago by Carpenter: "fair as fay-woman and fell-minded, in the world walking for the woe of men").

                          I think this one's going to take a while for people to absorb, but once they do that it'll be judged a major work. Guess we'll see. I know I'm already looking forward to leisurely re-reading it, more slowly this time.

                          --John R.

                        • Travis Buchanan
                          I agree about John R. also--eminently sane critic. I ve not yet received my copy of *Fall of Arthur* yet, but I ve read the heroic alliterative verse of his
                          Message 12 of 25 , May 26, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I agree about John R. also--eminently sane critic. I've not yet received my copy of Fall of Arthur yet, but I've read the heroic alliterative verse of his reimagined lays for Sigurd and Gudrun. Comparing them to Williams's Arthurian poetry is almost like comparing apples and oranges, they're such different colors and tastes. But of course, literary palates often prefer one to the other.


                            ​Cheers,​

                            Travis


                            On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 2:15 AM, Mike Foster <mafoster@...> wrote:
                             

                            John Rateliff is (as usual) right.  This work will be honored as one of Tolkien’s finest; it begs to be read aloud, loud aloud. 
                             
                            In some of the best passages, one hears JRRT
                            ​​
                            reading “The Ride of the Rohirrim” in George Sayer’s recordings.
                             
                            Because of the death of a longtime (since 1961) friend, visits of commiseration, writings eulogics, hosting visitors &c., I am only as far as canto 5.  I’m eschewing all the notes and commentary so far.
                             
                            Moreover, Far Westfarthing smial is reading Charles Williams’ The Place of the Lion for our May 31 meeting.  I’m up to Ch. 5.
                             
                            I read Tolkien, then I read Williams.
                             
                            Tolkien is better.
                             
                            Mike
                             
                             
                             
                            Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 9:06 AM
                            Subject: Re: [mythsoc] The Fall of Arthur
                             
                            John

                            Yesterday thanks to a train ride to and from Cardiff to meet my Postgraduate Research supervior (Dr. Dimitra Fimi) on the progress of my Tolkien thesis I had the chance to do a complete first read of The Fall of Arthur as I travelled through 'the walls of Wales.'

                            Like you John I was completly blown away by Tolkien's plans (sadly not completed) to link the poem to his mythology and the Lost Literature of Faerie.  The idea of linking Arthur (and Lancelot!) to Earende/Wingelotl and going into the West is quite interesting (love how Tolkien completely dismisses the Glastonbery element). I kept thinking of the hermit they visit before going to the west as Cirdan the Shipwright at the Grey Havens!  Also the occurance of the name Avallone in the mythology as an alternative name for Tol-Eressea around the time Tolkien was working on Fall of Arthur is quite interesting and needs more investigation (I also wonder if and how this might link to the older names Arvalin (a later name for Habbanan) as in 'the wide plains of Arvalin (Lost Tales 1, p.70) also listed in the Qenya Lexicon and if this was also an Arthurian inspired early idea - more grist for the thesis!

                            The actual poem is brilliant and I find it interesting that Tolkien focuses so much on the character of Mordred (who has always been a very shadowy character - except  in the musical Camelot where he gets to sing 'The Seven Deadly Virtues.  Tolkien's Mordred seems to have a lot of the dark lord about him - he watches from towers and he goes to the East to lead an army against Arthur.  On my second read I will pay more attention to this.

                            A book that was worth the wait and the commentary Christopher gives linking the poem to both the Arthurian tradition and the the ermeging mythology is invaluable.

                            Second read to come this weekend!

                            Best, Andy

                             



                            On May 24, 2013, at 07:39 AM, John Rateliff <sacnoth@...> wrote:

                             

                            So, anybody else read THE FALL OF ARTHUR yet?

                            Biggest surprise for me was the revelation that in it Tolkien linked up the Arthurian story to his legendarium.

                            That, and his giving us in Guinevere what I think is his most negative portrayal of a female character.

                            Not to mention that now we'll have to qualify statements about his depiction of the Angles and Saxons in his work by taking into account their treatment here -- at one point he has King Arthur playing pretty much the role the Romans play in Wm Morris's HOUSE OF THE WOLFINGS, wh. I wdn't have expected.

                            Plus, of course, the fact that just judged as poetry there are some memorable lines (the best of which, describing Guinevere, was quoted long ago by Carpenter: "fair as fay-woman and fell-minded, in the world walking for the woe of men").

                            I think this one's going to take a while for people to absorb, but once they do that it'll be judged a major work. Guess we'll see. I know I'm already looking forward to leisurely re-reading it, more slowly this time.

                            --John R.


                          • Damien
                            Hello, The comments here make me hope my own copy of the book will arrive soon. However, I ve just come across a small piece of information. As pointed out by
                            Message 13 of 25 , May 30, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hello,

                              The comments here make me hope my own copy of the book will arrive soon.

                              However, I've just come across a small piece of information. As pointed out by Julien Mansencal, it seems the book cover of _The Fall of Arthur_ is inspired by the 13th century grave of a knight of Palays (from South-West France), now located in the Musée des Augustins in Toulouse, my hometown.

                              See: http://forum.tolkiendil.com/thread-6650-post-133433.html#pid133433

                              Of course, I'm planning to have a look — it's been a long time I haven't visited this museum. Any visiting Tolkiendil is free to join!

                              Best regards,
                              Damien


                              --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, Alana Joli Abbott <alanajoli@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > > As Travis says, the Eerdmans edition is probably your best bet, via
                              > > bookfinder.com or abebooks.com. This reprints the second and third of
                              > > Williams' Arthurian books, TALIESSIN THROUGH LOGRES (1938) and THE REGION
                              > > OF THE SUMMER STARS (1944), as well as the unfinished prose history/summary
                              > > of the Arthurian legend (THE FIGURE OF ARTHUR) Wms was working on when he
                              > > died and CSL's extensive commentary on Wms' cycle (WILLIAMS AND THE
                              > > ARTHURIAD), both of which had been published under the title ARTHURIAN
                              > > TORSO (1948).
                              > >
                              >
                              > John, thanks for this and the further detailed comments! Very informative,
                              > and I'll definitely give a try to hunting them down. (After I've finished
                              > doing the jury reading for the MFAs of course!)
                              >
                              > Best,
                              > Alana
                              >
                              >
                              > --
                              > Alana Joli Abbott, Freelance Writer and Editor (
                              > http://www.virgilandbeatrice.com)
                              > Author of *Into the Reach* and *Departure *http://tinyurl.com/aja-ebooks
                              > *Regaining Home *is Kickstarted!* *http://tinyurl.com/kickstartregaininghome
                              > Author of interactive novel *Choice of Kung Fu* http://tinyurl.com/aja-cog
                              > Contributor to *Haunted: 11 Tales of Ghostly Horror*
                              > http://tinyurl.com/haunted-aja
                              > --
                              > For updates on my writings, join my mailing list at
                              > http://groups.google.com/group/alanajoliabbottfans
                              >
                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.