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Charles Williams had a twin?

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  • John Rateliff
    So, today I found out that Charles Williams was a twin, but his infant sibling did not survive. That seems to me to be a stunning thing not to know about
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 27, 2013
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      So, today I found out that Charles Williams was a twin, but his infant sibling did not survive.
      That seems to me to be a stunning thing not to know about someone, particularly someone I've read a good deal about and written on as well. Is this something that's well known in Wms circles and I just somehow always missed it?
      I also learned what Wms died of -- that is, what he'd gone in to have the operation for, which most accounts had been oddly vague on. Now that I know it was for "recurrence of intussusception", leading to "acute intestinal obstruction". Who knew?

      --JDR
    • wendell_wagner
      Just like Elvis. . . and Liberace . . . and Philip K. Dick (well, his twin sister died at five weeks). And that shouldn t be surprising, since they re all . .
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 28, 2013
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        Just like Elvis. . . and Liberace . . . and Philip K. Dick (well, his twin sister died at five weeks).  And that shouldn't be surprising, since they're all . . . um . . . um . . . Could someone fill in something here?
         
        Wendell Wagner
         
        In a message dated 3/28/2013 12:36:14 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sacnoth@... writes:
         

        So, today I found out that Charles Williams was a twin, but his infant sibling did not survive.
        That seems to me to be a stunning thing not to know about someone, particularly someone I've read a good deal about and written on as well. Is this something that's well known in Wms circles and I just somehow always missed it?
        I also learned what Wms died of -- that is, what he'd gone in to have the operation for, which most accounts had been oddly vague on. Now that I know it was for "recurrence of intussusception", leading to "acute intestinal obstruction". Who knew?

        --JDR

      • John Rateliff
        Looks like THE DICTIONARY OF NATIONAL BIOGRAPHY (2004, v. 59, p.146) is wrong about Charles Williams being the survivor of a pair of twins. Dug out my copy of
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 29, 2013
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          Looks like THE DICTIONARY OF NATIONAL BIOGRAPHY (2004, v. 59, p.146) is wrong about Charles Williams being the survivor of a pair of twins. Dug out my copy of Hadfield today and find it's his father, not Wms himself, who was a twin.  Hadfield also identifies Wms' specific ailment (intussusception) for which he had the two operations (in 1933, which he recovered from, and 1945, when he didn't). 
             Which raises a second, probably unanswerable question: why were Lewis et al so cavalier about Wms' hospitalization that none of them even bothered to go by and see him in the days between his hospitalization and death? Lewis is emphatic about how utterly surprised he was by Wms' death, but you'd think a man in his mid-fifties being rushed to the hospital for emergency surgery, his wife being sent for, etc.  wd have set off a few alarm bells.  Was Lewis simply that clueless about health matters? Given his wrecking his own health and bringing about his own early death by his refusal to get his prostate treated, and comments he makes about his wife's remission, I'm inclined to think so. Or maybe everybody was just distracted by the end of the War.
          --JDR


          On Mar 28, 2013, at 2:30 AM, WendellWag@... wrote:

          Just like Elvis. . . and Liberace . . . and Philip K. Dick (well, his twin sister died at five weeks).  And that shouldn't be surprising, since they're all . . . um . . . um . . . Could someone fill in something here?

          So, today I found out that Charles Williams was a twin, but his infant sibling did not survive. 
          That seems to me to be a stunning thing not to know about someone, particularly someone I've read a good deal about and written on as well. Is this something that's well known in Wms circles and I just somehow always missed it? 
          I also learned what Wms died of -- that is, what he'd gone in to have the operation for, which most accounts had been oddly vague on. Now that I know it was for "recurrence of intussusception", leading to "acute intestinal obstruction". Who knew?

          --JDR


        • Mike Foster
          Thanks, John Now I know what “intussusception” is. This does not increase my store of happy knowledge. Your remarks about Lewis are valid. He seems
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 29, 2013
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            Thanks, John
             
            Now I know what “intussusception” is.  This does not increase my store of happy knowledge.
             
            Your remarks about Lewis are valid.  He seems to’ve been rather undisturbed about serious health concerns.
             
            Will we see you at Mythcon?
             
            Mike
             
            Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 12:43 PM
            Subject: [mythsoc] . . . or maybe he didn't.
             
             

            Looks like THE DICTIONARY OF NATIONAL BIOGRAPHY (2004, v. 59, p.146) is wrong about Charles Williams being the survivor of a pair of twins. Dug out my copy of Hadfield today and find it's his father, not Wms himself, who was a twin.  Hadfield also identifies Wms' specific ailment (intussusception) for which he had the two operations (in 1933, which he recovered from, and 1945, when he didn't).
               Which raises a second, probably unanswerable question: why were Lewis et al so cavalier about Wms' hospitalization that none of them even bothered to go by and see him in the days between his hospitalization and death? Lewis is emphatic about how utterly surprised he was by Wms' death, but you'd think a man in his mid-fifties being rushed to the hospital for emergency surgery, his wife being sent for, etc.  wd have set off a few alarm bells.  Was Lewis simply that clueless about health matters? Given his wrecking his own health and bringing about his own early death by his refusal to get his prostate treated, and comments he makes about his wife's remission, I'm inclined to think so. Or maybe everybody was just distracted by the end of the War.
            --JDR
             
             
            On Mar 28, 2013, at 2:30 AM, WendellWag@... wrote:

            Just like Elvis. . . and Liberace . . . and Philip K. Dick (well, his twin sister died at five weeks).  And that shouldn't be surprising, since they're all . . . um . . . um . . . Could someone fill in something here?

            So, today I found out that Charles Williams was a twin, but his infant sibling did not survive. 
            That seems to me to be a stunning thing not to know about someone, particularly someone I've read a good deal about and written on as well. Is this something that's well known in Wms circles and I just somehow always missed it? 
            I also learned what Wms died of -- that is, what he'd gone in to have the operation for, which most accounts had been oddly vague on. Now that I know it was for "recurrence of intussusception", leading to "acute intestinal obstruction". Who knew?

            --JDR


          • John Rateliff
            ... Hi Mike. No, I won t make it to this year s Mythcon, but I will be at Kalamazoo. Looking at the DNB (Dictionary of National Biography) entries on Williams,
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 29, 2013
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              On Mar 29, 2013, at 11:35 AM, Mike Foster wrote:
              Thanks, John
              Now I know what “intussusception” is.  This does not increase my store of happy knowledge.
              Your remarks about Lewis are valid.  He seems to’ve been rather undisturbed about serious health concerns.
              Will we see you at Mythcon?
              Mike

              Hi Mike.
                 No, I won't make it to this year's Mythcon, but I will be at Kalamazoo.
                 Looking at the DNB (Dictionary of National Biography) entries on Williams, Lewis, and Tolkien, I was struck by the disparity in their wealth at time of death (there's actually a line for this at the end of each entry).
                 Williams (d. 1945) left behind an estate worth 951 pounds, 9 shillings, and 1 pence.
                 Lewis (d. 1963) left behind 55, 869 pounds. This would not have included The Kilns, which belonged to the Moores.
                 Tolkien (d. 1973) left behind 190,577 pounds, but I don't know if this includes money he put aside for his children a few years before his death (since he had to survive a certain number of years after that point for the trust to take effect). Still, a sizable amount.
                 Part of the disparity between these is no doubt due to inflation, but I still found the relative amounts interesting -- esp. for CSL, who left considerably more than I wd have expected.

              --JDR
            • Mike Foster
              John, Best to all at Ka’zoo from the Fosters. Mike & Jo From: John Rateliff Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 3:55 PM To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com Subject:
              Message 6 of 9 , Mar 29, 2013
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                John,
                    Best to all at Ka’zoo from the Fosters.
                 
                Mike & Jo
                 
                 
                 
                Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 3:55 PM
                Subject: [mythsoc] One last snippet from DNB
                 
                 

                 
                On Mar 29, 2013, at 11:35 AM, Mike Foster wrote:
                Thanks, John
                Now I know what “intussusception” is.  This does not increase my store of happy knowledge.
                Your remarks about Lewis are valid.  He seems to’ve been rather undisturbed about serious health concerns.
                Will we see you at Mythcon?
                Mike
                 
                Hi Mike.
                   No, I won't make it to this year's Mythcon, but I will be at Kalamazoo.
                   Looking at the DNB (Dictionary of National Biography) entries on Williams, Lewis, and Tolkien, I was struck by the disparity in their wealth at time of death (there's actually a line for this at the end of each entry).
                   Williams (d. 1945) left behind an estate worth 951 pounds, 9 shillings, and 1 pence.
                   Lewis (d. 1963) left behind 55, 869 pounds. This would not have included The Kilns, which belonged to the Moores.
                   Tolkien (d. 1973) left behind 190,577 pounds, but I don't know if this includes money he put aside for his children a few years before his death (since he had to survive a certain number of years after that point for the trust to take effect). Still, a sizable amount.
                   Part of the disparity between these is no doubt due to inflation, but I still found the relative amounts interesting -- esp. for CSL, who left considerably more than I wd have expected.
                 
                --JDR
              • scribblerworks
                I m not inclined to think that Lewis was cavalier about Williams condition. It s not like he really lived in Williams pocket. I expect he was
                Message 7 of 9 , Mar 29, 2013
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                  I'm not inclined to think that Lewis was cavalier about Williams'
                  condition. It's not like he really lived in Williams' pocket. I expect he
                  was straightforwardly busy with his own work, and didn't realize how
                  serious things were with Williams.

                  I have recent personal experience of such: last year a friend had
                  developed a bad respiratory ailment. His closest friends (very close, he
                  was the godfather for their children) were content with him telling them
                  he was going to the doctor to have it checked out. He didn't tell them the
                  gist of it. The wife, knowing he was ill, but not thinking it terribly
                  serious, stopped by on the Monday, and discovered him having a hard time
                  breathing. She carted him off to the ER, where it was discovered his
                  oxygen levels were disasterously low, as he had an advanced case of
                  pneumonia. Unfortunately, he did not recover. This was a shock to everyone
                  who knew him - many of whom had seen him just the week before he went to
                  hospital.

                  The best way to gage it is to ask yourself when the last time was that you
                  spoke to your best friend, or a specific valued colleague, or a relative.
                  I know in my case that I don't touch base with these people in my own life
                  every day.

                  Sarah




                  > Looks like THE DICTIONARY OF NATIONAL BIOGRAPHY (2004, v. 59, p.146) is
                  > wrong about Charles Williams being the survivor of a pair of twins. Dug
                  > out my copy of Hadfield today and find it's his father, not Wms himself,
                  > who was a twin. Hadfield also identifies Wms' specific ailment
                  > (intussusception) for which he had the two operations (in 1933, which he
                  > recovered from, and 1945, when he didn't).
                  > Which raises a second, probably unanswerable question: why were Lewis
                  > et al so cavalier about Wms' hospitalization that none of them even
                  > bothered to go by and see him in the days between his hospitalization
                  > and death? Lewis is emphatic about how utterly surprised he was by Wms'
                  > death, but you'd think a man in his mid-fifties being rushed to the
                  > hospital for emergency surgery, his wife being sent for, etc. wd have
                  > set off a few alarm bells. Was Lewis simply that clueless about health
                  > matters? Given his wrecking his own health and bringing about his own
                  > early death by his refusal to get his prostate treated, and comments he
                  > makes about his wife's remission, I'm inclined to think so. Or maybe
                  > everybody was just distracted by the end of the War.
                  > --JDR
                  >
                  >
                  > On Mar 28, 2013, at 2:30 AM, WendellWag@... wrote:
                  >>
                  >> Just like Elvis. . . and Liberace . . . and Philip K. Dick (well, his
                  >> twin sister died at five weeks). And that shouldn't be surprising,
                  >> since they're all . . . um . . . um . . . Could someone fill in
                  >> something here?
                  >> So, today I found out that Charles Williams was a twin, but his infant
                  >> sibling did not survive.
                  >> That seems to me to be a stunning thing not to know about someone,
                  >> particularly someone I've read a good deal about and written on as well.
                  >> Is this something that's well known in Wms circles and I just somehow
                  >> always missed it?
                  >> I also learned what Wms died of -- that is, what he'd gone in to have
                  >> the operation for, which most accounts had been oddly vague on. Now that
                  >> I know it was for "recurrence of intussusception", leading to "acute
                  >> intestinal obstruction". Who knew?
                  >>
                  >> --JDR
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                • lynnmaudlin
                  1. Very sad you won t be with us at Mythcon, John-- :( 2. The money is interesting and also indicates the kind of popularity each had begun to enjoy in his
                  Message 8 of 9 , Apr 4 7:24 PM
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                    1. Very sad you won't be with us at Mythcon, John-- :(

                    2. The money is interesting and also indicates the kind of popularity each had begun to enjoy in his lifetime; even now Williams isn't nearly so well known or commonly read as Tolkien and Lewis (or even Sayers). He also had a much shorter creative life, ending in 1945 vs. 1963 for CSL and 1973 for JRRT. But, generally speaking, I think Williams is less readily accessible than either Tolkien or Lewis.

                    3. Sarah's points about how easily we can be less connected than we think we are, *even now* with all the social media, are well taken. I also think there was a different expectation about how successful medical intervention would be, in 1945 vs today. And, of course, they expected Williams to survive; he may well have been the one communicating that ("oh it's nothing, I've done this before").

                    -- Lynn --

                    --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, John Rateliff <sacnoth@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > On Mar 29, 2013, at 11:35 AM, Mike Foster wrote:
                    > > Thanks, John
                    > > Now I know what "intussusception" is. This does not increase my store of happy knowledge.
                    > > Your remarks about Lewis are valid. He seems to've been rather undisturbed about serious health concerns.
                    > > Will we see you at Mythcon?
                    > > Mike
                    >
                    > Hi Mike.
                    > No, I won't make it to this year's Mythcon, but I will be at Kalamazoo.
                    > Looking at the DNB (Dictionary of National Biography) entries on Williams, Lewis, and Tolkien, I was struck by the disparity in their wealth at time of death (there's actually a line for this at the end of each entry).
                    > Williams (d. 1945) left behind an estate worth 951 pounds, 9 shillings, and 1 pence.
                    > Lewis (d. 1963) left behind 55, 869 pounds. This would not have included The Kilns, which belonged to the Moores.
                    > Tolkien (d. 1973) left behind 190,577 pounds, but I don't know if this includes money he put aside for his children a few years before his death (since he had to survive a certain number of years after that point for the trust to take effect). Still, a sizable amount.
                    > Part of the disparity between these is no doubt due to inflation, but I still found the relative amounts interesting -- esp. for CSL, who left considerably more than I wd have expected.
                    >
                    > --JDR
                    >
                  • wendell_wagner
                    Adjusted for inflation to 2013 U.K. pounds: Williams: 33,167.69 Lewis: 940,275.27 Tolkien: 1,982,000.80 Converted to 2013 U.S. dollars: Williams: 50,195.98
                    Message 9 of 9 , Apr 4 11:36 PM
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                      Adjusted for inflation to 2013 U.K. pounds:
                       
                      Williams: 33,167.69
                      Lewis: 940,275.27
                      Tolkien: 1,982,000.80
                       
                      Converted to 2013 U.S. dollars:
                       
                      Williams: 50,195.98
                      Lewis: 1,423,012.19
                      Tolkien: 2,979,740.03
                       
                      Wendell Wagner
                       
                      In a message dated 3/29/2013 4:55:23 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sacnoth@... writes:
                           Looking at the DNB (Dictionary of National Biography) entries on Williams, Lewis, and Tolkien, I was struck by the disparity in their wealth at time of death (there's actually a line for this at the end of each entry).
                         Williams (d. 1945) left behind an estate worth 951 pounds, 9 shillings, and 1 pence.
                         Lewis (d. 1963) left behind 55, 869 pounds. This would not have included The Kilns, which belonged to the Moores.
                         Tolkien (d. 1973) left behind 190,577 pounds, but I don't know if this includes money he put aside for his children a few years before his death (since he had to survive a certain number of years after that point for the trust to take effect). Still, a sizable amount.
                         Part of the disparity between these is no doubt due to inflation, but I still found the relative amounts interesting -- esp. for CSL, who left considerably more than I wd have expected.

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