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Re: [mythsoc] Law suit update

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  • GH Chinoy
    Doug, Thanks for the update - fascinating (ok, I find it fascinating) stuff. Would you happen to have references to the documents/filings? Thanks, H
    Message 1 of 26 , Feb 6, 2013
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      Doug,

      Thanks for the update - fascinating (ok, I find it fascinating) stuff. Would you happen to have references to the documents/filings?

      Thanks,

      H


      On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 11:54 AM, Doug Kane <dougkane@...> wrote:
       

      Here is an update on the situation with the lawsuit filed by the Tolkien Estate and Harper Collins against Saul Zaentz and Company, and Warner Brothers/New Line.  Zaentz and WB have responded to the lawsuit by, in addition to denying the allegations, filing counterclaims for declaratory relief and for damages for breach of the implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing inherent in all contracts under U.S. law.  I have had a chance to review these documents, and I have to say that it appears that they have a pretty compelling case as the issue of online games (perhaps not so much with the slot machine issue).  They cite correspondence going back to 1996 in which with Harper Collins and the Estate's attorney concede that Zaentz has the right to online video games based on The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. Perhaps most interesting, they cite a September 2010 "regrant" agreement in which the Estate confirms the rights held by Zaentz, and licenced to Warners/New Line. That must be the agreement that was referred to in Entertainment Weekly back in October 2010, in which Jackson was quoted as saying that one of the issues causing the delay was negotiations with the Estate over rights issues. I think it is likely that I will get a chance to see that agreement (as well as the other documentation that Zaentz and Warners say they have) over the course of the lawsuit, if it reaches the point that motions for summary judgment are filed. 
       
      It is, of course, possibly that Zaentz and WB are misrepresenting the history and that the true facts will support the position of the Estate and Harper Collins, but right now it looks to me like they are on pretty shaky legal grounds.
       
      Doug


    • David Bratman
      According to http://file770.com/?p=11534 the Zaentz countersuit claims that the movies and their spinoffs, and not the books themselves, are responsible for
      Message 2 of 26 , Feb 6, 2013
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        According to http://file770.com/?p=11534 the Zaentz countersuit claims that
        the movies and their spinoffs, and not the books themselves, are responsible
        for Tolkien's popularity. May we have done with such nonsense?


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Doug Kane" <dougkane@...>
        To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 10:54 AM
        Subject: [mythsoc] Law suit update


        Here is an update on the situation with the lawsuit filed by the Tolkien
        Estate and Harper Collins against Saul Zaentz and Company, and Warner
        Brothers/New Line. Zaentz and WB have responded to the lawsuit by, in
        addition to denying the allegations, filing counterclaims for declaratory
        relief and for damages for breach of the implied covenant of good faith and
        fair dealing inherent in all contracts under U.S. law. I have had a chance
        to review these documents, and I have to say that it appears that they have
        a pretty compelling case as the issue of online games (perhaps not so much
        with the slot machine issue). They cite correspondence going back to 1996
        in which with Harper Collins and the Estate's attorney concede that Zaentz
        has the right to online video games based on The Hobbit and The Lord of the
        Rings. Perhaps most interesting, they cite a September 2010 "regrant"
        agreement in which the Estate confirms the rights held by Zaentz, and
        licenced to Warners/New Line. That must be the agreement that was referred
        to in Entertainment Weekly back in October 2010, in which Jackson was quoted
        as saying that one of the issues causing the delay was negotiations with the
        Estate over rights issues. I think it is likely that I will get a chance to
        see that agreement (as well as the other documentation that Zaentz and
        Warners say they have) over the course of the lawsuit, if it reaches the
        point that motions for summary judgment are filed.

        It is, of course, possibly that Zaentz and WB are misrepresenting the
        history and that the true facts will support the position of the Estate and
        Harper Collins, but right now it looks to me like they are on pretty shaky
        legal grounds.

        Doug
      • Doug Kane
        I accessed the documents through my PACER ( Public Access to Court Electronic Records ) account. I believe that one or more periodicals printed a link to
        Message 3 of 26 , Feb 6, 2013
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          I accessed the documents through my PACER ("Public Access to Court Electronic Records") account.  I believe that one or more periodicals printed a link to Zaentz's response last week, but unfortunately, I don't have that link.  What a second, let me see if I can find it. ... Here you go, here is Zaentz's Answer and Counterclaim:  http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/sites/default/files/custom/Documents/ESQ/GGDOCS1-%231878321-v1-CONFORMED_Complaint.pdf
           
          Doug

          From: GH Chinoy
          Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 11:19 AM
          Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Law suit update

           

          Doug,

          Thanks for the update - fascinating (ok, I find it fascinating) stuff. Would you happen to have references to the documents/filings?

          Thanks,

          H


          On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 11:54 AM, Doug Kane <dougkane@...> wrote:
           

          Here is an update on the situation with the lawsuit filed by the Tolkien Estate and Harper Collins against Saul Zaentz and Company, and Warner Brothers/New Line.  Zaentz and WB have responded to the lawsuit by, in addition to denying the allegations, filing counterclaims for declaratory relief and for damages for breach of the implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing inherent in all contracts under U.S. law.  I have had a chance to review these documents, and I have to say that it appears that they have a pretty compelling case as the issue of online games (perhaps not so much with the slot machine issue).  They cite correspondence going back to 1996 in which with Harper Collins and the Estate's attorney concede that Zaentz has the right to online video games based on The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. Perhaps most interesting, they cite a September 2010 "regrant" agreement in which the Estate confirms the rights held by Zaentz, and licenced to Warners/New Line. That must be the agreement that was referred to in Entertainment Weekly back in October 2010, in which Jackson was quoted as saying that one of the issues causing the delay was negotiations with the Estate over rights issues. I think it is likely that I will get a chance to see that agreement (as well as the other documentation that Zaentz and Warners say they have) over the course of the lawsuit, if it reaches the point that motions for summary judgment are filed. 
           
          It is, of course, possibly that Zaentz and WB are misrepresenting the history and that the true facts will support the position of the Estate and Harper Collins, but right now it looks to me like they are on pretty shaky legal grounds.
           
          Doug



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        • Doug Kane
          Sorry, that is actually a link to the original Complaint, not Zaentz s response. From: Doug Kane Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 11:28 AM To:
          Message 4 of 26 , Feb 6, 2013
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            Sorry, that is actually a link to the original Complaint, not Zaentz's response.

            From: Doug Kane
            Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 11:28 AM
            Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Law suit update

             

            I accessed the documents through my PACER ("Public Access to Court Electronic Records") account.  I believe that one or more periodicals printed a link to Zaentz's response last week, but unfortunately, I don't have that link.  What a second, let me see if I can find it. ... Here you go, here is Zaentz's Answer and Counterclaim:  http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/sites/default/files/custom/Documents/ESQ/GGDOCS1-%231878321-v1-CONFORMED_Complaint.pdf
             
            Doug

            From: GH Chinoy
            Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 11:19 AM
            Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Law suit update

             

            Doug,

            Thanks for the update - fascinating (ok, I find it fascinating) stuff. Would you happen to have references to the documents/filings?

            Thanks,

            H


            On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 11:54 AM, Doug Kane <dougkane@...> wrote:
             

            Here is an update on the situation with the lawsuit filed by the Tolkien Estate and Harper Collins against Saul Zaentz and Company, and Warner Brothers/New Line.  Zaentz and WB have responded to the lawsuit by, in addition to denying the allegations, filing counterclaims for declaratory relief and for damages for breach of the implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing inherent in all contracts under U.S. law.  I have had a chance to review these documents, and I have to say that it appears that they have a pretty compelling case as the issue of online games (perhaps not so much with the slot machine issue).  They cite correspondence going back to 1996 in which with Harper Collins and the Estate's attorney concede that Zaentz has the right to online video games based on The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. Perhaps most interesting, they cite a September 2010 "regrant" agreement in which the Estate confirms the rights held by Zaentz, and licenced to Warners/New Line. That must be the agreement that was referred to in Entertainment Weekly back in October 2010, in which Jackson was quoted as saying that one of the issues causing the delay was negotiations with the Estate over rights issues. I think it is likely that I will get a chance to see that agreement (as well as the other documentation that Zaentz and Warners say they have) over the course of the lawsuit, if it reaches the point that motions for summary judgment are filed. 
             
            It is, of course, possibly that Zaentz and WB are misrepresenting the history and that the true facts will support the position of the Estate and Harper Collins, but right now it looks to me like they are on pretty shaky legal grounds.
             
            Doug



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          • R.J. Anderson
            Jason, I almost mentioned THE TOWER OF GEBURAH myself! Even as a child reader I was appalled at how much he ripped off of Tolkien (I recognized the scene where
            Message 5 of 26 , Feb 6, 2013
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              Jason, I almost mentioned THE TOWER OF GEBURAH myself! Even as a child reader I was appalled at how much he ripped off of Tolkien (I recognized the scene where the children almost get "eaten" by the trees right away), and yet there are some gems of original thinking in there as well. I think THE IRON SCEPTRE holds up better as an original narrative (though my brother says that's John White doing Donaldson instead of John White doing Tolkien, the similarity is less blatant).

              Though a few years later I tried to read the third novel GAAL THE CONQUEROR, and it didn't work for me at all. The heavy-handed psychobabble ("Oh no! We're caught in a Guilt Trap!") was off-putting to say the least, and the story seemed thin and simplistic. Haven't bothered to check out anything else White's written since then.
              --
              Rebecca
            • Westermeyer GS11 Paul W
              This is great question, as with others, Tolkien wasn t my gateway either. :) The first great love of my reading life was history, specifically military
              Message 6 of 26 , Feb 6, 2013
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                This is great question, as with others, Tolkien wasn't my 'gateway' either. :)

                The first great love of my reading life was history, specifically military history, and more specifically WWII. I LOVED reading anything WWII in 4th grade. That eventually led to my reading some of Howard Pyle's works on King Arthur and Robin Hood, as I just ran out of WWII and even WWI books in my parents small book collection and the almost as small rural elementary school library. We didn't have a Public Library out in the country where I lived, back then.

                In 6th grade, at one of those school book sales I got a copy of Lloyd Alexander's _The High King_, the end of his Prydain series. I loved it, and started looking for more fantasy. I don't recall the exact order but in middle school I discovered both Tolkien and AD&D near simultaneously, and I began the habit I have now of rereading Tolkien every year. I then expanded to ancient history (especially loved the Gallic Wars and Bullfinch) and historical fiction but the school library had little fantasy beyond Tolkien. I recall when they finally opened a small branch library in my town I was over-joyed to discover David Edding's Belgariad, and once I could drive and thus finally get to the suburbs and the mall I discovered bookstores and started really engaging with fantasy literature.

                I was disappointed when I was younger that I could find so few of the books listed in Gygax's AD&D DMG appendix on fantasy literature, but I've been slowly reading my way through it over the years.

                Looking back, Tolkien has impacted me most profoundly, but there are other writers not far behind. Lloyd Alexander's Prydain series, Susan Cooper's Dark is Rising Series, the first three books of LeGuin's Earthsea series, and Mary Stewart's Merlin trilogy all top the list for fantasy authors; Alexander Dumas' Three Musketeers, Wyss' Swiss Family Roberston, ERB's Tarzan, and Verne's 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea are the most influential classics for me.

                It is interesting to see my children grow up in a house filled with books (very unlike my own childhood) and with a father who obsessively promotes reading. They seem to be good readers, and have their own tastes. My daughter complains we have nothing to read, because she doesn't want to read any of the hundreds of fantasy, history, or adventure tales - she prefers 'modern' tales with little supernatural elment unless it is vampires or werewolves. My son, in 4th grade, seems as obsessed with military history as I was at that age - he liked it when I read the Hobbit to him at bedtime, and loved the movie (I didn't) and likes Alexander's Prydain series, which I am reading to him at night now, but on his own he goes for the history books. I wonder if he will become fascinated with Tolkien as he gets older.

                Paul Westermeyer
                Historian, History Division
                Marine Corps University
                Paul.Westermeyer@...
                http://www.history.usmc.mil

                "The first law for the historian is that he shall never dare utter an untruth. The second is that he shall suppress nothing that is true. Moreover, there shall be no suspicion of partiality in his writing, or of malice." Marcus Tullius Cicero, De Oratore, II.XV,62

                "Like" us on Facebook!
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              • Doug Kane
                I agree that that claim is ludicrous, but it is legally irrelevant. From: David Bratman Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 11:27 AM To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                Message 7 of 26 , Feb 6, 2013
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                  I agree that that claim is ludicrous, but it is legally irrelevant.

                  Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 11:27 AM
                  Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Law suit update

                   

                  According to http://file770.com/?p=11534 the Zaentz countersuit claims that
                  the movies and their spinoffs, and not the books themselves, are responsible
                  for Tolkien's popularity. May we have done with such nonsense?

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Doug Kane" dougkane@...>
                  To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 10:54 AM
                  Subject: [mythsoc] Law suit update

                  Here is an update on the situation with the lawsuit filed by the Tolkien
                  Estate and Harper Collins against Saul Zaentz and Company, and Warner
                  Brothers/New Line. Zaentz and WB have responded to the lawsuit by, in
                  addition to denying the allegations, filing counterclaims for declaratory
                  relief and for damages for breach of the implied covenant of good faith and
                  fair dealing inherent in all contracts under U.S. law. I have had a chance
                  to review these documents, and I have to say that it appears that they have
                  a pretty compelling case as the issue of online games (perhaps not so much
                  with the slot machine issue). They cite correspondence going back to 1996
                  in which with Harper Collins and the Estate's attorney concede that Zaentz
                  has the right to online video games based on The Hobbit and The Lord of the
                  Rings. Perhaps most interesting, they cite a September 2010 "regrant"
                  agreement in which the Estate confirms the rights held by Zaentz, and
                  licenced to Warners/New Line. That must be the agreement that was referred
                  to in Entertainment Weekly back in October 2010, in which Jackson was quoted
                  as saying that one of the issues causing the delay was negotiations with the
                  Estate over rights issues. I think it is likely that I will get a chance to
                  see that agreement (as well as the other documentation that Zaentz and
                  Warners say they have) over the course of the lawsuit, if it reaches the
                  point that motions for summary judgment are filed.

                  It is, of course, possibly that Zaentz and WB are misrepresenting the
                  history and that the true facts will support the position of the Estate and
                  Harper Collins, but right now it looks to me like they are on pretty shaky
                  legal grounds.

                  Doug


                  No virus found in this message.
                  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                  Version: 10.0.1430 / Virus Database: 2639/5585 - Release Date: 02/06/13

                • "Marcel R. Aubron-Bülles"
                  When I first read The Lord of the Rings in German I immediately went to the British Council library in Cologne (at that time they weren t all amalgated into
                  Message 8 of 26 , Feb 6, 2013
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                    When I first read "The Lord of the Rings" in German I immediately went
                    to the British Council library in Cologne (at that time they weren't all
                    amalgated into the one in Berlin only) and asked for a membership which
                    they considered odd for a fourteen year old German ;) (that was in 1986,
                    mind.)

                    Luckily enough, they had LotR, Hobbit and Sil in English there. In
                    addition to this I first saw "Pictures by Tolkien" (and to this very day
                    want a copy of it) and Barbara Strachey's "Frodo's Journeys." I think
                    they even had a copy of "Unfinished Tales" but that was all they had on
                    Tolkien.

                    As I had run out of eminent fantasy authors (oh, I forgot - they had
                    the first Discworld novels and that's when I started reading Pratchett!)
                    I fell for Nigel Tranter as I also have a penchant for historical novels
                    - the pre-1286 Scotland/Viking stories (Lord of the Isles etc.)

                    I never stopped reading. They had Welsh for beginners (I taught myself
                    some - see Tolkien); Old English grammars (taught myself some) and I
                    tried to have a proper Tolkien exhibition done many years later.
                    Unfortunately, the Wall fell and all British Council branches were
                    closed, quite in contradiction to historical connections (with Cologne
                    being the major city in the British Zone after the war - let's forget
                    about that Hamburg thingy ...)

                    And all that reading led to me study English Literature and Linguistics.

                    --

                    Best wishes,

                    Marcel Aubron-Bülles

                    http://www.thetolkienist.com
                  • Jason Fisher
                    I remember them being rip-offs of Narnia especially, even more than Tolkien or Donaldson, and White even admitted this in one of the later books. A bunch of
                    Message 9 of 26 , Feb 6, 2013
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                      I remember them being rip-offs of Narnia especially, even more than Tolkien or Donaldson, and White even admitted this in one of the later books. A bunch of kids in Winnipeg, Canada find an old TV set in an attic, turn it on and see another world, which they are all presently sucked into. Sounds a bit like a cross between the Wardrobe and the painting in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader. Still, when I read them as a child, I enjoyed the Anthropos books. They didn't stick with me much, except for a few names (King Kardia, Inkleth, etc.) and some of the fine illustrations. I seem to remember one with a giant threatening chicken.

                      Nice to know somebody else out there read these too! :)

                      Jase


                      From: R.J. Anderson <rjawriter@...>
                      To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Wednesday, February 6, 2013 11:41 AM
                      Subject: [mythsoc] Re: Tolkien as a gateway drug

                       
                      Jason, I almost mentioned THE TOWER OF GEBURAH myself! Even as a child reader I was appalled at how much he ripped off of Tolkien (I recognized the scene where the children almost get "eaten" by the trees right away), and yet there are some gems of original thinking in there as well. I think THE IRON SCEPTRE holds up better as an original narrative (though my brother says that's John White doing Donaldson instead of John White doing Tolkien, the similarity is less blatant).

                      Though a few years later I tried to read the third novel GAAL THE CONQUEROR, and it didn't work for me at all. The heavy-handed psychobabble ("Oh no! We're caught in a Guilt Trap!") was off-putting to say the least, and the story seemed thin and simplistic. Haven't bothered to check out anything else White's written since then.
                      --
                      Rebecca


                    • C.N. Bartch
                      Just because I haven t seen anybody mention them yet, I ll throw in that one of the series I ve enjoyed the most after Tolkien drew me into fantasy is the
                      Message 10 of 26 , Feb 6, 2013
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                        Just because I haven't seen anybody mention them yet, I'll throw in that one of the series I've enjoyed the most after Tolkien drew me into fantasy is the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan.

                        ~Chris B.

                        On Feb 5, 2013 5:02 AM, "shawnareppert" <evenstar@...> wrote:
                         

                        OK, here's a question for the group to get some discussion going:

                        If Tolkien was for you, as it was for me, your first step into fantasy literature addiction, what was your next step down the path?

                        For myself, it was Robin Hood by Paul Creswick. Not strictly fantasy, but it had the same feel, the same elevated language, milieu, heroism and concern for honor.

                        Anyone else?

                        --Shawna Reppert

                        author of The Stolen Luck, coming soon from Carina Press

                        www.ShawnaReppert.com

                      • JOSEPH
                        And how did I forget d Aulaire s Greek Myths and Norse Gods & Giants? And also (and I just had to Google this one up) The Big Joke Game by Scott Corbett? And
                        Message 11 of 26 , Feb 6, 2013
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                          And how did I forget d'Aulaire's Greek Myths and Norse Gods & Giants? And also (and I just had to Google this one up) The Big Joke Game by Scott Corbett? And probably some of Andre Norton's colored magic books.

                          As far as SF, I came to that early also -- I obsessively read John Christopher's Tripods trilogy, and Dad had a bunch of Heinlein juveniles.

                          --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "shawnareppert" wrote:
                          >
                          > OK, here's a question for the group to get some discussion going:
                          >
                          > If Tolkien was for you, as it was for me, your first step into fantasy literature addiction, what was your next step down the path?
                          >
                          > For myself, it was Robin Hood by Paul Creswick. Not strictly fantasy, but it had the same feel, the same elevated language, milieu, heroism and concern for honor.
                          >
                          > Anyone else?
                          >
                          > --Shawna Reppert
                          >
                          > author of The Stolen Luck, coming soon from Carina Press
                          >
                          > www.ShawnaReppert.com
                          >
                        • shawnareppert
                          Love all the discussion, especially love seeing my old friends mentioned. Ursula LeGuin, Robin McKinley, Ray Bradbury (Something Wicked This Way Comes, oh,
                          Message 12 of 26 , Feb 7, 2013
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                            Love all the discussion, especially love seeing my old 'friends' mentioned. Ursula LeGuin, Robin McKinley, Ray Bradbury (Something Wicked This Way Comes, oh, yes.) Patricia McPhillip just keeps getting better and better.

                            Surprised no one else mentioned one of my later, twenty-plus year addiction: Charles de Lint. His writing totally rocks my world. Had the privilege to workshop with him, and can report he is also a wonderful gentleman and a superb teacher.


                            --Shawna Reppert

                            author of The Stolen Luck, coming soon from Carina Press

                            www.ShawnaReppert.com
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