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Tolkien and Musical Parody

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  • Ellen
    I m currently pursing a doctorate in music and recently wrote a paper about Goethe and Schubert s relationship (or lack thereof) that dealt with, among other
    Message 1 of 5 , Feb 5, 2013
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      I'm currently pursing a doctorate in music and recently wrote a paper about Goethe and Schubert's relationship (or lack thereof) that dealt with, among other things, the subject of musical parody, e.g., writing a poem to the melodic form of another.  I kept thinking how Tolkien did this as well, such as the "Old Troll" song going to the tune of "The Fox Went Out on a Chilly Night."

      Can anyone point me to sources about Tolkien and musical parody?  I know I've read at least a mention of this, but my Tolkien books are in Indianapolis and I am in Urbana.

      Thanks,

      Ellen Denham
    • David Bratman
      ... You re talking about Tolkien writing poems to fit pre-existing tunes? As opposed to other people writing song lyrics about Tolkien to pre-existing tunes?
      Message 2 of 5 , Feb 6, 2013
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        "Ellen Denham" <carnimiriel@...> wrote:

        > I'm currently pursing a doctorate in music and recently wrote a paper
        > about Goethe and Schubert's relationship (or lack thereof) that dealt
        > with, among other things, the subject of musical parody, e.g., writing a
        > poem to the melodic form of another. I kept thinking how Tolkien did
        > this as well, such as the "Old Troll" song going to the tune of "The Fox
        > Went Out on a Chilly Night."
        >
        > Can anyone point me to sources about Tolkienand musical parody? I know
        > I've read at least a mention of this, but my Tolkien books are in
        > Indianapolis and I am in Urbana.

        You're talking about Tolkien writing poems to fit pre-existing tunes? As
        opposed to other people writing song lyrics about Tolkien to pre-existing
        tunes? I briefly discussed this in regard to the Troll song in my paper on
        "Liquid Tolkien" in Brad Eden's _Middle-Earth Minstrel_. What I did not
        mention was that some of the poems in "Songs for the Philologists" specify
        folk tunes that they are to be sung to.

        David Bratman
      • Ellen
        Yes--I was talking about Tolkien writing poems to pre-existing tunes, as well as Tolkien using musical parody in its other senses, e.g., writing a poem in the
        Message 3 of 5 , Feb 7, 2013
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          Yes--I was talking about Tolkien writing poems to pre-existing tunes, as well as Tolkien using musical parody in its other senses, e.g., writing a poem in the same metrical rhythm of or in imitation of another poem or song, or having the text refer to or mirror another song, e.g., "Hey Diddle Diddle."  In musical/poetic terms the word parody is used in its older sense as a transcription of existing material rather than the more common modern usage indicating irony.

          I know I've read at least some references to this regarding Tolkien, though it may not have used the term "musical parody," but where I do not recall.  Any suggestions on where to start looking?

          I would love to read your paper on "Liquid Tolkien--" how would I access it? 

          The whole time I was researching and writing my paper dealing with Goethe's approach to song texts I kept thinking on how similar this was to Tolkien's approach.  I've got a paper idea for Mythcon brewing.

          Ellen Denham



          On 2/6/13 12:24 PM, David Bratman wrote:
           

          "Ellen Denham" carnimiriel@...> wrote:

          > I'm currently pursing a doctorate in music and recently wrote a paper
          > about Goethe and Schubert's relationship (or lack thereof) that dealt
          > with, among other things, the subject of musical parody, e.g., writing a
          > poem to the melodic form of another. I kept thinking how Tolkien did
          > this as well, such as the "Old Troll" song going to the tune of "The Fox
          > Went Out on a Chilly Night."
          >
          > Can anyone point me to sources about Tolkienand musical parody? I know
          > I've read at least a mention of this, but my Tolkien books are in
          > Indianapolis and I am in Urbana.

          You're talking about Tolkien writing poems to fit pre-existing tunes? As
          opposed to other people writing song lyrics about Tolkien to pre-existing
          tunes? I briefly discussed this in regard to the Troll song in my paper on
          "Liquid Tolkien" in Brad Eden's _Middle-Earth Minstrel_. What I did not
          mention was that some of the poems in "Songs for the Philologists" specify
          folk tunes that they are to be sung to.

          David Bratman


        • "Beregond, Anders Stenström"
          ... In _The Chesterton Review_ Vol.XXVIII, Nos.1&2, there is an article by Clive Tolley, Tolkien s Essay on Man : A Look at _Mythopeia_ , about Tolkien in
          Message 4 of 5 , Feb 9, 2013
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            Ellen wrote:
            > Yes--I was talking about Tolkien writing poems to pre-existing tunes, as
            > well as Tolkien using musical parody in its other senses, e.g., writing
            > a poem in the same metrical rhythm of or in imitation of another poem

            In _The Chesterton Review_ Vol.XXVIII, Nos.1&2, there is an
            article by Clive Tolley, "Tolkien's 'Essay on Man': A Look at
            _Mythopeia_", about Tolkien in his poem "Mythopoeia" using the form
            of Alexander Pope's "Essay on Man" and "Essay on Criticism".
            (There is currently a used copy on Amazon.com.)

            Chivalrously,

            Beregond
          • Ellen
            Thanks, Beregond--this is exactly the sort of thing I was looking for! Ellen Denham ... Thanks, Beregond --this is exactly the sort of thing I was looking for!
            Message 5 of 5 , Feb 10, 2013
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              Thanks, Beregond--this is exactly the sort of thing I was looking for!

              Ellen Denham

              On 2/9/13 2:07 PM, "Beregond, Anders Stenström" wrote:
               

              Ellen wrote:
              > Yes--I was talking about Tolkien writing poems to pre-existing tunes, as
              > well as Tolkien using musical parody in its other senses, e.g., writing
              > a poem in the same metrical rhythm of or in imitation of another poem

              In _The Chesterton Review_ Vol.XXVIII, Nos.1&2, there is an
              article by Clive Tolley, "Tolkien's 'Essay on Man': A Look at
              _Mythopeia_", about Tolkien in his poem "Mythopoeia" using the form
              of Alexander Pope's "Essay on Man" and "Essay on Criticism".
              (There is currently a used copy on Amazon.com.)

              Chivalrously,

              Beregond


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