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Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien as a gateway drug

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  • scribblerworks
    It s an interesting question, although since for me, Tolkien was NOT the starting point, it s more like the geneology of my fantasy reading. If you don t
    Message 1 of 26 , Feb 5, 2013
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      It's an interesting question, although since for me, Tolkien was NOT the
      starting point, it's more like the "geneology of my fantasy reading." If
      you don't mind such a contribution.

      I liked the way you put it, because it did make me backtrack a bit more on
      just how one thing led to another.

      In my case, at young age I'd gotten fascinated with King Tut which led to
      Egyptian Mythology. That (parallel to having Kipling read to me by my
      father) led to general mythology.

      From reading everything I could get my hands on about mythology (Egyptian,
      classical and Norse, and then splashes of other world mythologies,
      particularly Polynesian) I moved on to Fairy Tales -- as they had a
      similar flavor. Ran through those pretty quickly. And then there didn't
      seem to be anything else (I didn't know what I was looking for), but
      science fiction tasted close enough, so I plunged into that.

      Science fiction brought me to Bradbury and SOMETHING WICKED THIS WAY
      COMES, which had a profound effect. And somewhere in that same time span,
      I read THE WORM OROBORUS by E.R. Eddison. And THAT was very much what I
      had been searching for! (Yes, I read Eddison before I read Tolkien.)

      I'd seen Tolkien books in the same racks at the book store where I'd
      gotten the Eddison, but the fact that it was four books (more expensive
      than others in the racks) held me off for a long time. Then friends read
      THE HOBBIT in their English class (I had a different teacher that year),
      so I read it. TA DA! Even more than Eddison, Tolkien was what I'd been
      craving. And for a long time he alone was enough. (As in read the trilogy
      4 times the first year I had it.)

      But Tolkien did eventually lead me to reading BEOWULF on my own, and then
      William Morris. And then Ballantine started putting out LOTS of stuff, but
      classic fantasy (Cabel and others) and new. In college, I finally read
      Lewis (starting with the INTRODUCTION TO PARADISE LOST - because my
      English professor mentioned it when we were on Milton), and Lewis led to
      Charles Williams.

      So much for the "curse of King Tut." Heh.




      > OK, here's a question for the group to get some discussion going:
      >
      > If Tolkien was for you, as it was for me, your first step into fantasy
      > literature addiction, what was your next step down the path?
      >
      > For myself, it was Robin Hood by Paul Creswick. Not strictly fantasy, but
      > it had the same feel, the same elevated language, milieu, heroism and
      > concern for honor.
      >
      > Anyone else?
      >
      > --Shawna Reppert
      >
      > author of The Stolen Luck, coming soon from Carina Press
      >
      > www.ShawnaReppert.com
      >
      >
    • R.J. Anderson
      I started with Lewis rather than Tolkien, and then discovered George MacDonald, so apparently I did everything backward. But after that it was a short step to
      Message 2 of 26 , Feb 5, 2013
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        I started with Lewis rather than Tolkien, and then discovered George MacDonald, so apparently I did everything backward. But after that it was a short step to Ursula K. LeGuin, Susan Cooper, Lloyd Alexander and Robin McKinley; and soon after that I was devouring the works of Patricia A. McKillip, David Eddings (though I don't think I could re-read THE BELGARIAD now with anything like the same fondness), Stephen R. Donaldson (ditto, only more so) and so on. At about sixteen I also stumbled onto Mervyn Peake and wallowed around in TITUS GROAN and GORMENGHAST for a while.
        --
        Rebecca
        (R.J. Anderson)

        --
        Forget everything you think you know about faeries... 

        KNIFE (2009) | REBEL (2010) | ARROW (2011)
        SWIFT (2012) | NOMAD (2014)
        by R.J. Anderson

      • Tony Zbaraschuk
        ... It s interesting how often McKillip seems to be coming up in these posts, though maybe it says more about us than her. For me, it was Tolkien from my
        Message 3 of 26 , Feb 5, 2013
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          On Tue, Feb 05, 2013 at 04:55:34PM -0500, R.J. Anderson wrote:
          > I started with Lewis rather than Tolkien, and then discovered George
          > MacDonald, so apparently I did everything backward. But after that
          > it was a short step to Ursula K. LeGuin, Susan Cooper, Lloyd
          > Alexander and Robin McKinley; and soon after that I was devouring
          > the works of Patricia A. McKillip, David Eddings (though I don't
          > think I could re-read THE BELGARIAD now with anything like the same
          > fondness), Stephen R. Donaldson (ditto, only more so) and so on.

          It's interesting how often McKillip seems to be coming up in these
          posts, though maybe it says more about us than her.

          For me, it was Tolkien from my parents' library, and then the
          SF section at the local library. Patricia McKillip, Anne McCaffrey,
          Poul Anderson (especially "No Truce with Kings" and "The Queen of
          Air and Darkness"), Doc Smith, and eventually a whole bunch of
          others.


          Tony Z

          --
          There is a reason most German philosophy scholarship consists of
          trying to parse what German philosophers actually meant.
          --Lady Wisdom's Favorite
        • JOSEPH
          For me the gateway drug was probably Lloyd Alexander s Prydain books, and Narnia. But Tolkien was what really sealed the deal for me. The next steps down the
          Message 4 of 26 , Feb 5, 2013
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            For me the gateway drug was probably Lloyd Alexander's Prydain books, and Narnia. But Tolkien was what really sealed the deal for me. The next steps down the path were probably whatever I could lay hands on in small-town Minnesota in the early 1980's -- Michael Moorcock and Stephen R. Donaldson are ones that spring particularly to mind, plus Edgar Rice Burroughs' Barsoom books if you want to count those. Then Lovecraft which led to Clark Ashton Smith. And a couple of really excellent Lin Carter anthologies -- Kingdoms of Sorcery and Realms of Wizardry -- turned me on to a bunch of new authors.

            For whatever reason, I didn't start actively seeking out Robert E. Howard until I was in college. And later I kind of stumbled into the Ballantine Adult Fantasy series -- William Morris and George MacDonald in particular, then eventually to Peake and Eddison.

            --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "shawnareppert" wrote:
            >
            > OK, here's a question for the group to get some discussion going:
            >
            > If Tolkien was for you, as it was for me, your first step into fantasy literature addiction, what was your next step down the path?
            >
            > For myself, it was Robin Hood by Paul Creswick. Not strictly fantasy, but it had the same feel, the same elevated language, milieu, heroism and concern for honor.
            >
            > Anyone else?
            >
            > --Shawna Reppert
            >
            > author of The Stolen Luck, coming soon from Carina Press
            >
            > www.ShawnaReppert.com
            >
          • Jason Fisher
            For me, Lloyd Alexander, not just Prydain but everything I could get my hands on. Alan Garner, ditto, everything. Ursula K. Le Guin s Earthsea books, and a few
            Message 5 of 26 , Feb 5, 2013
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              For me, Lloyd Alexander, not just Prydain but everything I could get my hands on. Alan Garner, ditto, everything. Ursula K. Le Guin's Earthsea books, and a few others. Susan Cooper and Madeline L'Engle. I read a couple of Terry Brooks but gave that up quickly. One that I remember really enjoying was Dragonworld, by Byron Preiss and Michael Reeves. I only ever read it once (though I still have it), and from what I remember it was a bit of a rip-off of Tolkien, with its diminutive main character Amsel. I also read The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe, but no other Lewis as a youngster; and I read a couple of the Narnia rip-offs by John White, The Tower of Geburah and The Iron Sceptre. Amazing illustrations, as I recall. And Walter Wangerin's Book of the Dun Cow and the sequel, The Book of Sorrows (the most depressing book I've ever read; even beating out Cormac McCarthy's The Road). I also read Edgar Rice Burroughs, H.G. Wells, and Jules Verne as a kid. Oh, and Beowulf. :)


              From: shawnareppert <evenstar@...>
              To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tuesday, February 5, 2013 5:02 AM
              Subject: [mythsoc] Tolkien as a gateway drug

               
              OK, here's a question for the group to get some discussion going:

              If Tolkien was for you, as it was for me, your first step into fantasy literature addiction, what was your next step down the path?

              For myself, it was Robin Hood by Paul Creswick. Not strictly fantasy, but it had the same feel, the same elevated language, milieu, heroism and concern for honor.

              Anyone else?

              --Shawna Reppert

              author of The Stolen Luck, coming soon from Carina Press

              www.ShawnaReppert.com



            • David Emerson
              ... A lot of people have chimed in on this, with a few responses indicating that JRRT was not their gateway into fantasy, but other SF authors and/or adult
              Message 6 of 26 , Feb 5, 2013
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                >OK, here's a question for the group to get some discussion going:
                >
                >If Tolkien was for you, as it was for me, your first step into fantasy literature addiction, what was your next step down the path?
                >
                >For myself, it was Robin Hood by Paul Creswick. Not strictly fantasy, but it had the same feel, the same elevated language, milieu, heroism and concern for honor.
                >
                >Anyone else?
                >
                >--Shawna Reppert

                A lot of people have chimed in on this, with a few responses indicating that JRRT was not their gateway into fantasy, but other SF authors and/or "adult fantasy" writers like Dunsany and Eddison.

                For me, it started in childhood with fairy tales, Oz books, Freddy the Pig, and the like. Tolkien just raised the bar by several miles. After Tolkien, there is no next step, just steps to the side and backwards.

                David Emerson
              • Mike Foster
                Rather like David Emerson: long before Tolkien, Greek and Norse mythology out of Compton’s, I read Barrie’s PETER & WENDY first, then Grimm, Jacobs CELTIC
                Message 7 of 26 , Feb 5, 2013
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                  Rather like David Emerson: long before Tolkien, Greek and Norse mythology out of Compton’s, I read Barrie’s PETER & WENDY first, then Grimm, Jacobs CELTIC TALES, and the Andrew Lang Colored Series, all 12 (Lilac, Green, Crimson the best) ,and his PRINCE PRIGIO; Grahame, THE WIND IN THE WILLOWS and THE RELUCTANT DRAGON.  OZ before they got tedious.
                   
                  I’d include Walter R. Brooks Freddy the Pig series (the first one was called “There & Back Again.”; “The Horrible Ten” would be a great band name). 
                   
                  Beast fables like  Robert Lawson’s BEN & ME, RABBIT HILL, MR. REVERE & ME, and especially THE TOUGH WINTER, too. 
                   
                  And in the ten-cent stack, Carl Barks’ best Scrooge McDucks.
                   
                  Only later did I discover Lewis’ OUT OF THE SILENT PLANET and PERELANDRA, both used paperbacks sold as sci-fi.  Only belatedly, aged 28, did I discover Tolkien.  For 38 years since, I’m still rediscovering him.
                   
                  For me, MacDonald, Dunsany, Eddison aren’t close rivals.
                   
                  Mike Foster
                   
                  Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 9:51 PM
                  Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien as a gateway drug
                   
                   

                  >OK, here's a question for the group to get some discussion

                  going:
                  >
                  >If Tolkien was for you, as it was for me, your first step
                  into fantasy literature addiction, what was your next step down the path?
                  >
                  >For myself, it was Robin Hood by Paul Creswick. Not
                  strictly fantasy, but it had the same feel, the same elevated language, milieu, heroism and concern for honor.
                  >
                  >Anyone
                  else?
                  >
                  >--Shawna Reppert

                  A lot of people have chimed in on this, with a few responses indicating that JRRT was not their gateway into fantasy, but other SF authors and/or "adult fantasy" writers like Dunsany and Eddison.

                  For me, it started in childhood with fairy tales, Oz books, Freddy the Pig, and the like. Tolkien just raised the bar by several miles. After Tolkien, there is no next step, just steps to the side and backwards.

                  David Emerson
                • Bill West
                  Like others (of my generation I suppose) Tolkien wasn t my gateway into fantasy.I d already read Bulfinch s Mythology and any Arthurian books I could get my
                  Message 8 of 26 , Feb 5, 2013
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                    Like others (of my generation I suppose) Tolkien wasn't my gateway into fantasy.I'd already
                    read Bulfinch's Mythology and any Arthurian books I could get my hands on by the time
                    I was 12, then read Robert E Howard and Andre Norton. But Tolkien was my gateway to high
                    fantasy because afterward I read every book in the original Ballentine Adult Fantasy series, and discovered Dunsany, Morris, Eddison and Cabell. I still have most of the Ballentine books nearly 50 years later.

                    Bill 



                  • jef.murray
                    Great question! Tolkien wasn t my first step. That was Lewis Chronicles of Narnia, some books of which my mum read to us at bedtime when I was in second
                    Message 9 of 26 , Feb 6, 2013
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                      Great question!

                      Tolkien wasn't my first step. That was Lewis'
                      Chronicles of Narnia, some books of which my mum read to us at
                      bedtime when I was in second grade. But, along with
                      "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe", she also read
                      us "The Hobbit", so I consider Middle-earth and Narnia
                      introductions to have been simultaneous.

                      After these, and like some other posters, I went headlong
                      into fairy tales...mostly compilations from the Grimm brothers.
                      Then I became a rabid Sci-Fi fan, with favorites Ray Bradbury,
                      Arthur C. Clark, Niven, and Asimov.

                      I only returned to Tolkien in high school, reading LotR
                      in its entirety, then rereading. I actually hated to reread it
                      too often, as it was such a lush world to inhabit, I always
                      hated its being over. But after LotR, and in college, I
                      discovered Frank Herbert, and read the first six (!!!) of
                      his Dune series before they became tedious.

                      As an adult, I've tried Le Guin and Rowling, but didn't
                      much care for either of them. Over the last several years,
                      I've become much more interested in tales that have a more
                      archaic "high" linguistic style, such as Walter Scott's
                      historical romances (the Waverley books) and, especially, William Morris.

                      But, I've been enjoying this thread and will save it...looks
                      like there are many authors out there I've not sampled, certainly,
                      and I expect that's true of most of us!

                      Jef



                      --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "shawnareppert" wrote:
                      >
                      > OK, here's a question for the group to get some discussion going:
                      >
                      > If Tolkien was for you, as it was for me, your first step into fantasy literature addiction, what was your next step down the path?
                      >
                      > For myself, it was Robin Hood by Paul Creswick. Not strictly fantasy, but it had the same feel, the same elevated language, milieu, heroism and concern for honor.
                      >
                      > Anyone else?
                      >
                      > --Shawna Reppert
                      >
                      > author of The Stolen Luck, coming soon from Carina Press
                      >
                      > www.ShawnaReppert.com
                      >
                    • Doug Kane
                      Here is an update on the situation with the lawsuit filed by the Tolkien Estate and Harper Collins against Saul Zaentz and Company, and Warner Brothers/New
                      Message 10 of 26 , Feb 6, 2013
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                        Here is an update on the situation with the lawsuit filed by the Tolkien Estate and Harper Collins against Saul Zaentz and Company, and Warner Brothers/New Line.  Zaentz and WB have responded to the lawsuit by, in addition to denying the allegations, filing counterclaims for declaratory relief and for damages for breach of the implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing inherent in all contracts under U.S. law.  I have had a chance to review these documents, and I have to say that it appears that they have a pretty compelling case as the issue of online games (perhaps not so much with the slot machine issue).  They cite correspondence going back to 1996 in which with Harper Collins and the Estate's attorney concede that Zaentz has the right to online video games based on The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. Perhaps most interesting, they cite a September 2010 "regrant" agreement in which the Estate confirms the rights held by Zaentz, and licenced to Warners/New Line. That must be the agreement that was referred to in Entertainment Weekly back in October 2010, in which Jackson was quoted as saying that one of the issues causing the delay was negotiations with the Estate over rights issues. I think it is likely that I will get a chance to see that agreement (as well as the other documentation that Zaentz and Warners say they have) over the course of the lawsuit, if it reaches the point that motions for summary judgment are filed. 
                         
                        It is, of course, possibly that Zaentz and WB are misrepresenting the history and that the true facts will support the position of the Estate and Harper Collins, but right now it looks to me like they are on pretty shaky legal grounds.
                         
                        Doug
                      • GH Chinoy
                        Doug, Thanks for the update - fascinating (ok, I find it fascinating) stuff. Would you happen to have references to the documents/filings? Thanks, H
                        Message 11 of 26 , Feb 6, 2013
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                          Doug,

                          Thanks for the update - fascinating (ok, I find it fascinating) stuff. Would you happen to have references to the documents/filings?

                          Thanks,

                          H


                          On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 11:54 AM, Doug Kane <dougkane@...> wrote:
                           

                          Here is an update on the situation with the lawsuit filed by the Tolkien Estate and Harper Collins against Saul Zaentz and Company, and Warner Brothers/New Line.  Zaentz and WB have responded to the lawsuit by, in addition to denying the allegations, filing counterclaims for declaratory relief and for damages for breach of the implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing inherent in all contracts under U.S. law.  I have had a chance to review these documents, and I have to say that it appears that they have a pretty compelling case as the issue of online games (perhaps not so much with the slot machine issue).  They cite correspondence going back to 1996 in which with Harper Collins and the Estate's attorney concede that Zaentz has the right to online video games based on The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. Perhaps most interesting, they cite a September 2010 "regrant" agreement in which the Estate confirms the rights held by Zaentz, and licenced to Warners/New Line. That must be the agreement that was referred to in Entertainment Weekly back in October 2010, in which Jackson was quoted as saying that one of the issues causing the delay was negotiations with the Estate over rights issues. I think it is likely that I will get a chance to see that agreement (as well as the other documentation that Zaentz and Warners say they have) over the course of the lawsuit, if it reaches the point that motions for summary judgment are filed. 
                           
                          It is, of course, possibly that Zaentz and WB are misrepresenting the history and that the true facts will support the position of the Estate and Harper Collins, but right now it looks to me like they are on pretty shaky legal grounds.
                           
                          Doug


                        • David Bratman
                          According to http://file770.com/?p=11534 the Zaentz countersuit claims that the movies and their spinoffs, and not the books themselves, are responsible for
                          Message 12 of 26 , Feb 6, 2013
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                            According to http://file770.com/?p=11534 the Zaentz countersuit claims that
                            the movies and their spinoffs, and not the books themselves, are responsible
                            for Tolkien's popularity. May we have done with such nonsense?


                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Doug Kane" <dougkane@...>
                            To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 10:54 AM
                            Subject: [mythsoc] Law suit update


                            Here is an update on the situation with the lawsuit filed by the Tolkien
                            Estate and Harper Collins against Saul Zaentz and Company, and Warner
                            Brothers/New Line. Zaentz and WB have responded to the lawsuit by, in
                            addition to denying the allegations, filing counterclaims for declaratory
                            relief and for damages for breach of the implied covenant of good faith and
                            fair dealing inherent in all contracts under U.S. law. I have had a chance
                            to review these documents, and I have to say that it appears that they have
                            a pretty compelling case as the issue of online games (perhaps not so much
                            with the slot machine issue). They cite correspondence going back to 1996
                            in which with Harper Collins and the Estate's attorney concede that Zaentz
                            has the right to online video games based on The Hobbit and The Lord of the
                            Rings. Perhaps most interesting, they cite a September 2010 "regrant"
                            agreement in which the Estate confirms the rights held by Zaentz, and
                            licenced to Warners/New Line. That must be the agreement that was referred
                            to in Entertainment Weekly back in October 2010, in which Jackson was quoted
                            as saying that one of the issues causing the delay was negotiations with the
                            Estate over rights issues. I think it is likely that I will get a chance to
                            see that agreement (as well as the other documentation that Zaentz and
                            Warners say they have) over the course of the lawsuit, if it reaches the
                            point that motions for summary judgment are filed.

                            It is, of course, possibly that Zaentz and WB are misrepresenting the
                            history and that the true facts will support the position of the Estate and
                            Harper Collins, but right now it looks to me like they are on pretty shaky
                            legal grounds.

                            Doug
                          • Doug Kane
                            I accessed the documents through my PACER ( Public Access to Court Electronic Records ) account. I believe that one or more periodicals printed a link to
                            Message 13 of 26 , Feb 6, 2013
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                              I accessed the documents through my PACER ("Public Access to Court Electronic Records") account.  I believe that one or more periodicals printed a link to Zaentz's response last week, but unfortunately, I don't have that link.  What a second, let me see if I can find it. ... Here you go, here is Zaentz's Answer and Counterclaim:  http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/sites/default/files/custom/Documents/ESQ/GGDOCS1-%231878321-v1-CONFORMED_Complaint.pdf
                               
                              Doug

                              From: GH Chinoy
                              Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 11:19 AM
                              Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Law suit update

                               

                              Doug,

                              Thanks for the update - fascinating (ok, I find it fascinating) stuff. Would you happen to have references to the documents/filings?

                              Thanks,

                              H


                              On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 11:54 AM, Doug Kane <dougkane@...> wrote:
                               

                              Here is an update on the situation with the lawsuit filed by the Tolkien Estate and Harper Collins against Saul Zaentz and Company, and Warner Brothers/New Line.  Zaentz and WB have responded to the lawsuit by, in addition to denying the allegations, filing counterclaims for declaratory relief and for damages for breach of the implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing inherent in all contracts under U.S. law.  I have had a chance to review these documents, and I have to say that it appears that they have a pretty compelling case as the issue of online games (perhaps not so much with the slot machine issue).  They cite correspondence going back to 1996 in which with Harper Collins and the Estate's attorney concede that Zaentz has the right to online video games based on The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. Perhaps most interesting, they cite a September 2010 "regrant" agreement in which the Estate confirms the rights held by Zaentz, and licenced to Warners/New Line. That must be the agreement that was referred to in Entertainment Weekly back in October 2010, in which Jackson was quoted as saying that one of the issues causing the delay was negotiations with the Estate over rights issues. I think it is likely that I will get a chance to see that agreement (as well as the other documentation that Zaentz and Warners say they have) over the course of the lawsuit, if it reaches the point that motions for summary judgment are filed. 
                               
                              It is, of course, possibly that Zaentz and WB are misrepresenting the history and that the true facts will support the position of the Estate and Harper Collins, but right now it looks to me like they are on pretty shaky legal grounds.
                               
                              Doug



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                            • Doug Kane
                              Sorry, that is actually a link to the original Complaint, not Zaentz s response. From: Doug Kane Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 11:28 AM To:
                              Message 14 of 26 , Feb 6, 2013
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                                Sorry, that is actually a link to the original Complaint, not Zaentz's response.

                                From: Doug Kane
                                Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 11:28 AM
                                Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Law suit update

                                 

                                I accessed the documents through my PACER ("Public Access to Court Electronic Records") account.  I believe that one or more periodicals printed a link to Zaentz's response last week, but unfortunately, I don't have that link.  What a second, let me see if I can find it. ... Here you go, here is Zaentz's Answer and Counterclaim:  http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/sites/default/files/custom/Documents/ESQ/GGDOCS1-%231878321-v1-CONFORMED_Complaint.pdf
                                 
                                Doug

                                From: GH Chinoy
                                Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 11:19 AM
                                Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Law suit update

                                 

                                Doug,

                                Thanks for the update - fascinating (ok, I find it fascinating) stuff. Would you happen to have references to the documents/filings?

                                Thanks,

                                H


                                On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 11:54 AM, Doug Kane <dougkane@...> wrote:
                                 

                                Here is an update on the situation with the lawsuit filed by the Tolkien Estate and Harper Collins against Saul Zaentz and Company, and Warner Brothers/New Line.  Zaentz and WB have responded to the lawsuit by, in addition to denying the allegations, filing counterclaims for declaratory relief and for damages for breach of the implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing inherent in all contracts under U.S. law.  I have had a chance to review these documents, and I have to say that it appears that they have a pretty compelling case as the issue of online games (perhaps not so much with the slot machine issue).  They cite correspondence going back to 1996 in which with Harper Collins and the Estate's attorney concede that Zaentz has the right to online video games based on The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. Perhaps most interesting, they cite a September 2010 "regrant" agreement in which the Estate confirms the rights held by Zaentz, and licenced to Warners/New Line. That must be the agreement that was referred to in Entertainment Weekly back in October 2010, in which Jackson was quoted as saying that one of the issues causing the delay was negotiations with the Estate over rights issues. I think it is likely that I will get a chance to see that agreement (as well as the other documentation that Zaentz and Warners say they have) over the course of the lawsuit, if it reaches the point that motions for summary judgment are filed. 
                                 
                                It is, of course, possibly that Zaentz and WB are misrepresenting the history and that the true facts will support the position of the Estate and Harper Collins, but right now it looks to me like they are on pretty shaky legal grounds.
                                 
                                Doug



                                No virus found in this message.
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                                Version: 10.0.1430 / Virus Database: 2639/5585 - Release Date: 02/06/13


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                              • R.J. Anderson
                                Jason, I almost mentioned THE TOWER OF GEBURAH myself! Even as a child reader I was appalled at how much he ripped off of Tolkien (I recognized the scene where
                                Message 15 of 26 , Feb 6, 2013
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                                  Jason, I almost mentioned THE TOWER OF GEBURAH myself! Even as a child reader I was appalled at how much he ripped off of Tolkien (I recognized the scene where the children almost get "eaten" by the trees right away), and yet there are some gems of original thinking in there as well. I think THE IRON SCEPTRE holds up better as an original narrative (though my brother says that's John White doing Donaldson instead of John White doing Tolkien, the similarity is less blatant).

                                  Though a few years later I tried to read the third novel GAAL THE CONQUEROR, and it didn't work for me at all. The heavy-handed psychobabble ("Oh no! We're caught in a Guilt Trap!") was off-putting to say the least, and the story seemed thin and simplistic. Haven't bothered to check out anything else White's written since then.
                                  --
                                  Rebecca
                                • Westermeyer GS11 Paul W
                                  This is great question, as with others, Tolkien wasn t my gateway either. :) The first great love of my reading life was history, specifically military
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Feb 6, 2013
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                                    This is great question, as with others, Tolkien wasn't my 'gateway' either. :)

                                    The first great love of my reading life was history, specifically military history, and more specifically WWII. I LOVED reading anything WWII in 4th grade. That eventually led to my reading some of Howard Pyle's works on King Arthur and Robin Hood, as I just ran out of WWII and even WWI books in my parents small book collection and the almost as small rural elementary school library. We didn't have a Public Library out in the country where I lived, back then.

                                    In 6th grade, at one of those school book sales I got a copy of Lloyd Alexander's _The High King_, the end of his Prydain series. I loved it, and started looking for more fantasy. I don't recall the exact order but in middle school I discovered both Tolkien and AD&D near simultaneously, and I began the habit I have now of rereading Tolkien every year. I then expanded to ancient history (especially loved the Gallic Wars and Bullfinch) and historical fiction but the school library had little fantasy beyond Tolkien. I recall when they finally opened a small branch library in my town I was over-joyed to discover David Edding's Belgariad, and once I could drive and thus finally get to the suburbs and the mall I discovered bookstores and started really engaging with fantasy literature.

                                    I was disappointed when I was younger that I could find so few of the books listed in Gygax's AD&D DMG appendix on fantasy literature, but I've been slowly reading my way through it over the years.

                                    Looking back, Tolkien has impacted me most profoundly, but there are other writers not far behind. Lloyd Alexander's Prydain series, Susan Cooper's Dark is Rising Series, the first three books of LeGuin's Earthsea series, and Mary Stewart's Merlin trilogy all top the list for fantasy authors; Alexander Dumas' Three Musketeers, Wyss' Swiss Family Roberston, ERB's Tarzan, and Verne's 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea are the most influential classics for me.

                                    It is interesting to see my children grow up in a house filled with books (very unlike my own childhood) and with a father who obsessively promotes reading. They seem to be good readers, and have their own tastes. My daughter complains we have nothing to read, because she doesn't want to read any of the hundreds of fantasy, history, or adventure tales - she prefers 'modern' tales with little supernatural elment unless it is vampires or werewolves. My son, in 4th grade, seems as obsessed with military history as I was at that age - he liked it when I read the Hobbit to him at bedtime, and loved the movie (I didn't) and likes Alexander's Prydain series, which I am reading to him at night now, but on his own he goes for the history books. I wonder if he will become fascinated with Tolkien as he gets older.

                                    Paul Westermeyer
                                    Historian, History Division
                                    Marine Corps University
                                    Paul.Westermeyer@...
                                    http://www.history.usmc.mil

                                    "The first law for the historian is that he shall never dare utter an untruth. The second is that he shall suppress nothing that is true. Moreover, there shall be no suspicion of partiality in his writing, or of malice." Marcus Tullius Cicero, De Oratore, II.XV,62

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                                  • Doug Kane
                                    I agree that that claim is ludicrous, but it is legally irrelevant. From: David Bratman Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 11:27 AM To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Feb 6, 2013
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                                      I agree that that claim is ludicrous, but it is legally irrelevant.

                                      Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 11:27 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Law suit update

                                       

                                      According to http://file770.com/?p=11534 the Zaentz countersuit claims that
                                      the movies and their spinoffs, and not the books themselves, are responsible
                                      for Tolkien's popularity. May we have done with such nonsense?

                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: "Doug Kane" dougkane@...>
                                      To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 10:54 AM
                                      Subject: [mythsoc] Law suit update

                                      Here is an update on the situation with the lawsuit filed by the Tolkien
                                      Estate and Harper Collins against Saul Zaentz and Company, and Warner
                                      Brothers/New Line. Zaentz and WB have responded to the lawsuit by, in
                                      addition to denying the allegations, filing counterclaims for declaratory
                                      relief and for damages for breach of the implied covenant of good faith and
                                      fair dealing inherent in all contracts under U.S. law. I have had a chance
                                      to review these documents, and I have to say that it appears that they have
                                      a pretty compelling case as the issue of online games (perhaps not so much
                                      with the slot machine issue). They cite correspondence going back to 1996
                                      in which with Harper Collins and the Estate's attorney concede that Zaentz
                                      has the right to online video games based on The Hobbit and The Lord of the
                                      Rings. Perhaps most interesting, they cite a September 2010 "regrant"
                                      agreement in which the Estate confirms the rights held by Zaentz, and
                                      licenced to Warners/New Line. That must be the agreement that was referred
                                      to in Entertainment Weekly back in October 2010, in which Jackson was quoted
                                      as saying that one of the issues causing the delay was negotiations with the
                                      Estate over rights issues. I think it is likely that I will get a chance to
                                      see that agreement (as well as the other documentation that Zaentz and
                                      Warners say they have) over the course of the lawsuit, if it reaches the
                                      point that motions for summary judgment are filed.

                                      It is, of course, possibly that Zaentz and WB are misrepresenting the
                                      history and that the true facts will support the position of the Estate and
                                      Harper Collins, but right now it looks to me like they are on pretty shaky
                                      legal grounds.

                                      Doug


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                                    • "Marcel R. Aubron-Bülles"
                                      When I first read The Lord of the Rings in German I immediately went to the British Council library in Cologne (at that time they weren t all amalgated into
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Feb 6, 2013
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                                        When I first read "The Lord of the Rings" in German I immediately went
                                        to the British Council library in Cologne (at that time they weren't all
                                        amalgated into the one in Berlin only) and asked for a membership which
                                        they considered odd for a fourteen year old German ;) (that was in 1986,
                                        mind.)

                                        Luckily enough, they had LotR, Hobbit and Sil in English there. In
                                        addition to this I first saw "Pictures by Tolkien" (and to this very day
                                        want a copy of it) and Barbara Strachey's "Frodo's Journeys." I think
                                        they even had a copy of "Unfinished Tales" but that was all they had on
                                        Tolkien.

                                        As I had run out of eminent fantasy authors (oh, I forgot - they had
                                        the first Discworld novels and that's when I started reading Pratchett!)
                                        I fell for Nigel Tranter as I also have a penchant for historical novels
                                        - the pre-1286 Scotland/Viking stories (Lord of the Isles etc.)

                                        I never stopped reading. They had Welsh for beginners (I taught myself
                                        some - see Tolkien); Old English grammars (taught myself some) and I
                                        tried to have a proper Tolkien exhibition done many years later.
                                        Unfortunately, the Wall fell and all British Council branches were
                                        closed, quite in contradiction to historical connections (with Cologne
                                        being the major city in the British Zone after the war - let's forget
                                        about that Hamburg thingy ...)

                                        And all that reading led to me study English Literature and Linguistics.

                                        --

                                        Best wishes,

                                        Marcel Aubron-Bülles

                                        http://www.thetolkienist.com
                                      • Jason Fisher
                                        I remember them being rip-offs of Narnia especially, even more than Tolkien or Donaldson, and White even admitted this in one of the later books. A bunch of
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Feb 6, 2013
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                                          I remember them being rip-offs of Narnia especially, even more than Tolkien or Donaldson, and White even admitted this in one of the later books. A bunch of kids in Winnipeg, Canada find an old TV set in an attic, turn it on and see another world, which they are all presently sucked into. Sounds a bit like a cross between the Wardrobe and the painting in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader. Still, when I read them as a child, I enjoyed the Anthropos books. They didn't stick with me much, except for a few names (King Kardia, Inkleth, etc.) and some of the fine illustrations. I seem to remember one with a giant threatening chicken.

                                          Nice to know somebody else out there read these too! :)

                                          Jase


                                          From: R.J. Anderson <rjawriter@...>
                                          To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Wednesday, February 6, 2013 11:41 AM
                                          Subject: [mythsoc] Re: Tolkien as a gateway drug

                                           
                                          Jason, I almost mentioned THE TOWER OF GEBURAH myself! Even as a child reader I was appalled at how much he ripped off of Tolkien (I recognized the scene where the children almost get "eaten" by the trees right away), and yet there are some gems of original thinking in there as well. I think THE IRON SCEPTRE holds up better as an original narrative (though my brother says that's John White doing Donaldson instead of John White doing Tolkien, the similarity is less blatant).

                                          Though a few years later I tried to read the third novel GAAL THE CONQUEROR, and it didn't work for me at all. The heavy-handed psychobabble ("Oh no! We're caught in a Guilt Trap!") was off-putting to say the least, and the story seemed thin and simplistic. Haven't bothered to check out anything else White's written since then.
                                          --
                                          Rebecca


                                        • C.N. Bartch
                                          Just because I haven t seen anybody mention them yet, I ll throw in that one of the series I ve enjoyed the most after Tolkien drew me into fantasy is the
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Feb 6, 2013
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                                            Just because I haven't seen anybody mention them yet, I'll throw in that one of the series I've enjoyed the most after Tolkien drew me into fantasy is the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan.

                                            ~Chris B.

                                            On Feb 5, 2013 5:02 AM, "shawnareppert" <evenstar@...> wrote:
                                             

                                            OK, here's a question for the group to get some discussion going:

                                            If Tolkien was for you, as it was for me, your first step into fantasy literature addiction, what was your next step down the path?

                                            For myself, it was Robin Hood by Paul Creswick. Not strictly fantasy, but it had the same feel, the same elevated language, milieu, heroism and concern for honor.

                                            Anyone else?

                                            --Shawna Reppert

                                            author of The Stolen Luck, coming soon from Carina Press

                                            www.ShawnaReppert.com

                                          • JOSEPH
                                            And how did I forget d Aulaire s Greek Myths and Norse Gods & Giants? And also (and I just had to Google this one up) The Big Joke Game by Scott Corbett? And
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Feb 6, 2013
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                                              And how did I forget d'Aulaire's Greek Myths and Norse Gods & Giants? And also (and I just had to Google this one up) The Big Joke Game by Scott Corbett? And probably some of Andre Norton's colored magic books.

                                              As far as SF, I came to that early also -- I obsessively read John Christopher's Tripods trilogy, and Dad had a bunch of Heinlein juveniles.

                                              --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "shawnareppert" wrote:
                                              >
                                              > OK, here's a question for the group to get some discussion going:
                                              >
                                              > If Tolkien was for you, as it was for me, your first step into fantasy literature addiction, what was your next step down the path?
                                              >
                                              > For myself, it was Robin Hood by Paul Creswick. Not strictly fantasy, but it had the same feel, the same elevated language, milieu, heroism and concern for honor.
                                              >
                                              > Anyone else?
                                              >
                                              > --Shawna Reppert
                                              >
                                              > author of The Stolen Luck, coming soon from Carina Press
                                              >
                                              > www.ShawnaReppert.com
                                              >
                                            • shawnareppert
                                              Love all the discussion, especially love seeing my old friends mentioned. Ursula LeGuin, Robin McKinley, Ray Bradbury (Something Wicked This Way Comes, oh,
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Feb 7, 2013
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                                                Love all the discussion, especially love seeing my old 'friends' mentioned. Ursula LeGuin, Robin McKinley, Ray Bradbury (Something Wicked This Way Comes, oh, yes.) Patricia McPhillip just keeps getting better and better.

                                                Surprised no one else mentioned one of my later, twenty-plus year addiction: Charles de Lint. His writing totally rocks my world. Had the privilege to workshop with him, and can report he is also a wonderful gentleman and a superb teacher.


                                                --Shawna Reppert

                                                author of The Stolen Luck, coming soon from Carina Press

                                                www.ShawnaReppert.com
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