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Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien as a gateway drug

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  • David Bratman
    ... That s a fascinating question. After I read H and LOTR, I took to haunting the bookstore shelves in hopes that the Silmarillion would soon be published.
    Message 1 of 26 , Feb 5, 2013
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      shawnareppert <evenstar@...> wrote:

      >If Tolkien was for you, as it was for me, your first step into fantasy literature
      >addiction, what was your next step down the path?

      That's a fascinating question.

      After I read H and LOTR, I took to haunting the bookstore shelves in hopes that the Silmarillion would soon be published. (I was young and naive, and had no other sources of information.) For a long time I didn't look at the other fantasy books, because my hunger was for Tolkien, not for fantasy. But eventually I glanced through something called "A Wizard of Earthsea" and fell in love with its map. So I read that, and have been very glad ever since that I did.

      Later I read Lin Carter's survey book "Imaginary Worlds" and tried many of the authors discussed in it. Some I liked, some I emphatically did not. The ones I liked best were Lord Dunsany, Mervyn Peake, and John Bellairs.

      By the time I'd gotten through that I'd joined the Mythopoeic Society and had people to recommend books at me. One of the first successes I got that way was a then-new author named Patricia McKillip.

      It was only some time after that that the Silmarillion was finally published.
    • stephane_grignon
      I begin myself to read what was on my father s library : Jack Vance, Michael Morcook, Poul Anderson, Fritz Lieber then discover by myself Tolkien (via
      Message 2 of 26 , Feb 5, 2013
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        I begin myself to read what was on my father's library : Jack Vance, Michael Morcook, Poul Anderson, Fritz Lieber then discover by myself Tolkien (via Roleplaying Games). Quickly I was fond of his univers. So much that as a french reader I was begun to search Tolkien in english (years 1985-1990). Till that I read Shippey and Carpenter books to improve my knowledge. With P.Jackson arrival I see an unknown breach of what other people don't like or understood as I learnt years before. Dwarven lore.
        Then as an evidence I begun to read Norse Sagas. Read Icelandic real sources.
        Now to change a little I'm reading David Gemmell and Georges R. Martin. Both with their full thinked worlds.
        But Tolkien is always there in my thoughts. Dwarves names. Runes. Other Northen tracks let by him. And as always I defend his real dwarves
        Against some I see with sorrowfull feelings now on so much screens.

        Anglin. To serve you.
      • scribblerworks
        It s an interesting question, although since for me, Tolkien was NOT the starting point, it s more like the geneology of my fantasy reading. If you don t
        Message 3 of 26 , Feb 5, 2013
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          It's an interesting question, although since for me, Tolkien was NOT the
          starting point, it's more like the "geneology of my fantasy reading." If
          you don't mind such a contribution.

          I liked the way you put it, because it did make me backtrack a bit more on
          just how one thing led to another.

          In my case, at young age I'd gotten fascinated with King Tut which led to
          Egyptian Mythology. That (parallel to having Kipling read to me by my
          father) led to general mythology.

          From reading everything I could get my hands on about mythology (Egyptian,
          classical and Norse, and then splashes of other world mythologies,
          particularly Polynesian) I moved on to Fairy Tales -- as they had a
          similar flavor. Ran through those pretty quickly. And then there didn't
          seem to be anything else (I didn't know what I was looking for), but
          science fiction tasted close enough, so I plunged into that.

          Science fiction brought me to Bradbury and SOMETHING WICKED THIS WAY
          COMES, which had a profound effect. And somewhere in that same time span,
          I read THE WORM OROBORUS by E.R. Eddison. And THAT was very much what I
          had been searching for! (Yes, I read Eddison before I read Tolkien.)

          I'd seen Tolkien books in the same racks at the book store where I'd
          gotten the Eddison, but the fact that it was four books (more expensive
          than others in the racks) held me off for a long time. Then friends read
          THE HOBBIT in their English class (I had a different teacher that year),
          so I read it. TA DA! Even more than Eddison, Tolkien was what I'd been
          craving. And for a long time he alone was enough. (As in read the trilogy
          4 times the first year I had it.)

          But Tolkien did eventually lead me to reading BEOWULF on my own, and then
          William Morris. And then Ballantine started putting out LOTS of stuff, but
          classic fantasy (Cabel and others) and new. In college, I finally read
          Lewis (starting with the INTRODUCTION TO PARADISE LOST - because my
          English professor mentioned it when we were on Milton), and Lewis led to
          Charles Williams.

          So much for the "curse of King Tut." Heh.




          > OK, here's a question for the group to get some discussion going:
          >
          > If Tolkien was for you, as it was for me, your first step into fantasy
          > literature addiction, what was your next step down the path?
          >
          > For myself, it was Robin Hood by Paul Creswick. Not strictly fantasy, but
          > it had the same feel, the same elevated language, milieu, heroism and
          > concern for honor.
          >
          > Anyone else?
          >
          > --Shawna Reppert
          >
          > author of The Stolen Luck, coming soon from Carina Press
          >
          > www.ShawnaReppert.com
          >
          >
        • R.J. Anderson
          I started with Lewis rather than Tolkien, and then discovered George MacDonald, so apparently I did everything backward. But after that it was a short step to
          Message 4 of 26 , Feb 5, 2013
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            I started with Lewis rather than Tolkien, and then discovered George MacDonald, so apparently I did everything backward. But after that it was a short step to Ursula K. LeGuin, Susan Cooper, Lloyd Alexander and Robin McKinley; and soon after that I was devouring the works of Patricia A. McKillip, David Eddings (though I don't think I could re-read THE BELGARIAD now with anything like the same fondness), Stephen R. Donaldson (ditto, only more so) and so on. At about sixteen I also stumbled onto Mervyn Peake and wallowed around in TITUS GROAN and GORMENGHAST for a while.
            --
            Rebecca
            (R.J. Anderson)

            --
            Forget everything you think you know about faeries... 

            KNIFE (2009) | REBEL (2010) | ARROW (2011)
            SWIFT (2012) | NOMAD (2014)
            by R.J. Anderson

          • Tony Zbaraschuk
            ... It s interesting how often McKillip seems to be coming up in these posts, though maybe it says more about us than her. For me, it was Tolkien from my
            Message 5 of 26 , Feb 5, 2013
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              On Tue, Feb 05, 2013 at 04:55:34PM -0500, R.J. Anderson wrote:
              > I started with Lewis rather than Tolkien, and then discovered George
              > MacDonald, so apparently I did everything backward. But after that
              > it was a short step to Ursula K. LeGuin, Susan Cooper, Lloyd
              > Alexander and Robin McKinley; and soon after that I was devouring
              > the works of Patricia A. McKillip, David Eddings (though I don't
              > think I could re-read THE BELGARIAD now with anything like the same
              > fondness), Stephen R. Donaldson (ditto, only more so) and so on.

              It's interesting how often McKillip seems to be coming up in these
              posts, though maybe it says more about us than her.

              For me, it was Tolkien from my parents' library, and then the
              SF section at the local library. Patricia McKillip, Anne McCaffrey,
              Poul Anderson (especially "No Truce with Kings" and "The Queen of
              Air and Darkness"), Doc Smith, and eventually a whole bunch of
              others.


              Tony Z

              --
              There is a reason most German philosophy scholarship consists of
              trying to parse what German philosophers actually meant.
              --Lady Wisdom's Favorite
            • JOSEPH
              For me the gateway drug was probably Lloyd Alexander s Prydain books, and Narnia. But Tolkien was what really sealed the deal for me. The next steps down the
              Message 6 of 26 , Feb 5, 2013
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                For me the gateway drug was probably Lloyd Alexander's Prydain books, and Narnia. But Tolkien was what really sealed the deal for me. The next steps down the path were probably whatever I could lay hands on in small-town Minnesota in the early 1980's -- Michael Moorcock and Stephen R. Donaldson are ones that spring particularly to mind, plus Edgar Rice Burroughs' Barsoom books if you want to count those. Then Lovecraft which led to Clark Ashton Smith. And a couple of really excellent Lin Carter anthologies -- Kingdoms of Sorcery and Realms of Wizardry -- turned me on to a bunch of new authors.

                For whatever reason, I didn't start actively seeking out Robert E. Howard until I was in college. And later I kind of stumbled into the Ballantine Adult Fantasy series -- William Morris and George MacDonald in particular, then eventually to Peake and Eddison.

                --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "shawnareppert" wrote:
                >
                > OK, here's a question for the group to get some discussion going:
                >
                > If Tolkien was for you, as it was for me, your first step into fantasy literature addiction, what was your next step down the path?
                >
                > For myself, it was Robin Hood by Paul Creswick. Not strictly fantasy, but it had the same feel, the same elevated language, milieu, heroism and concern for honor.
                >
                > Anyone else?
                >
                > --Shawna Reppert
                >
                > author of The Stolen Luck, coming soon from Carina Press
                >
                > www.ShawnaReppert.com
                >
              • Jason Fisher
                For me, Lloyd Alexander, not just Prydain but everything I could get my hands on. Alan Garner, ditto, everything. Ursula K. Le Guin s Earthsea books, and a few
                Message 7 of 26 , Feb 5, 2013
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                  For me, Lloyd Alexander, not just Prydain but everything I could get my hands on. Alan Garner, ditto, everything. Ursula K. Le Guin's Earthsea books, and a few others. Susan Cooper and Madeline L'Engle. I read a couple of Terry Brooks but gave that up quickly. One that I remember really enjoying was Dragonworld, by Byron Preiss and Michael Reeves. I only ever read it once (though I still have it), and from what I remember it was a bit of a rip-off of Tolkien, with its diminutive main character Amsel. I also read The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe, but no other Lewis as a youngster; and I read a couple of the Narnia rip-offs by John White, The Tower of Geburah and The Iron Sceptre. Amazing illustrations, as I recall. And Walter Wangerin's Book of the Dun Cow and the sequel, The Book of Sorrows (the most depressing book I've ever read; even beating out Cormac McCarthy's The Road). I also read Edgar Rice Burroughs, H.G. Wells, and Jules Verne as a kid. Oh, and Beowulf. :)


                  From: shawnareppert <evenstar@...>
                  To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tuesday, February 5, 2013 5:02 AM
                  Subject: [mythsoc] Tolkien as a gateway drug

                   
                  OK, here's a question for the group to get some discussion going:

                  If Tolkien was for you, as it was for me, your first step into fantasy literature addiction, what was your next step down the path?

                  For myself, it was Robin Hood by Paul Creswick. Not strictly fantasy, but it had the same feel, the same elevated language, milieu, heroism and concern for honor.

                  Anyone else?

                  --Shawna Reppert

                  author of The Stolen Luck, coming soon from Carina Press

                  www.ShawnaReppert.com



                • David Emerson
                  ... A lot of people have chimed in on this, with a few responses indicating that JRRT was not their gateway into fantasy, but other SF authors and/or adult
                  Message 8 of 26 , Feb 5, 2013
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                    >OK, here's a question for the group to get some discussion going:
                    >
                    >If Tolkien was for you, as it was for me, your first step into fantasy literature addiction, what was your next step down the path?
                    >
                    >For myself, it was Robin Hood by Paul Creswick. Not strictly fantasy, but it had the same feel, the same elevated language, milieu, heroism and concern for honor.
                    >
                    >Anyone else?
                    >
                    >--Shawna Reppert

                    A lot of people have chimed in on this, with a few responses indicating that JRRT was not their gateway into fantasy, but other SF authors and/or "adult fantasy" writers like Dunsany and Eddison.

                    For me, it started in childhood with fairy tales, Oz books, Freddy the Pig, and the like. Tolkien just raised the bar by several miles. After Tolkien, there is no next step, just steps to the side and backwards.

                    David Emerson
                  • Mike Foster
                    Rather like David Emerson: long before Tolkien, Greek and Norse mythology out of Compton’s, I read Barrie’s PETER & WENDY first, then Grimm, Jacobs CELTIC
                    Message 9 of 26 , Feb 5, 2013
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                      Rather like David Emerson: long before Tolkien, Greek and Norse mythology out of Compton’s, I read Barrie’s PETER & WENDY first, then Grimm, Jacobs CELTIC TALES, and the Andrew Lang Colored Series, all 12 (Lilac, Green, Crimson the best) ,and his PRINCE PRIGIO; Grahame, THE WIND IN THE WILLOWS and THE RELUCTANT DRAGON.  OZ before they got tedious.
                       
                      I’d include Walter R. Brooks Freddy the Pig series (the first one was called “There & Back Again.”; “The Horrible Ten” would be a great band name). 
                       
                      Beast fables like  Robert Lawson’s BEN & ME, RABBIT HILL, MR. REVERE & ME, and especially THE TOUGH WINTER, too. 
                       
                      And in the ten-cent stack, Carl Barks’ best Scrooge McDucks.
                       
                      Only later did I discover Lewis’ OUT OF THE SILENT PLANET and PERELANDRA, both used paperbacks sold as sci-fi.  Only belatedly, aged 28, did I discover Tolkien.  For 38 years since, I’m still rediscovering him.
                       
                      For me, MacDonald, Dunsany, Eddison aren’t close rivals.
                       
                      Mike Foster
                       
                      Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 9:51 PM
                      Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien as a gateway drug
                       
                       

                      >OK, here's a question for the group to get some discussion

                      going:
                      >
                      >If Tolkien was for you, as it was for me, your first step
                      into fantasy literature addiction, what was your next step down the path?
                      >
                      >For myself, it was Robin Hood by Paul Creswick. Not
                      strictly fantasy, but it had the same feel, the same elevated language, milieu, heroism and concern for honor.
                      >
                      >Anyone
                      else?
                      >
                      >--Shawna Reppert

                      A lot of people have chimed in on this, with a few responses indicating that JRRT was not their gateway into fantasy, but other SF authors and/or "adult fantasy" writers like Dunsany and Eddison.

                      For me, it started in childhood with fairy tales, Oz books, Freddy the Pig, and the like. Tolkien just raised the bar by several miles. After Tolkien, there is no next step, just steps to the side and backwards.

                      David Emerson
                    • Bill West
                      Like others (of my generation I suppose) Tolkien wasn t my gateway into fantasy.I d already read Bulfinch s Mythology and any Arthurian books I could get my
                      Message 10 of 26 , Feb 5, 2013
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                        Like others (of my generation I suppose) Tolkien wasn't my gateway into fantasy.I'd already
                        read Bulfinch's Mythology and any Arthurian books I could get my hands on by the time
                        I was 12, then read Robert E Howard and Andre Norton. But Tolkien was my gateway to high
                        fantasy because afterward I read every book in the original Ballentine Adult Fantasy series, and discovered Dunsany, Morris, Eddison and Cabell. I still have most of the Ballentine books nearly 50 years later.

                        Bill 



                      • jef.murray
                        Great question! Tolkien wasn t my first step. That was Lewis Chronicles of Narnia, some books of which my mum read to us at bedtime when I was in second
                        Message 11 of 26 , Feb 6, 2013
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                          Great question!

                          Tolkien wasn't my first step. That was Lewis'
                          Chronicles of Narnia, some books of which my mum read to us at
                          bedtime when I was in second grade. But, along with
                          "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe", she also read
                          us "The Hobbit", so I consider Middle-earth and Narnia
                          introductions to have been simultaneous.

                          After these, and like some other posters, I went headlong
                          into fairy tales...mostly compilations from the Grimm brothers.
                          Then I became a rabid Sci-Fi fan, with favorites Ray Bradbury,
                          Arthur C. Clark, Niven, and Asimov.

                          I only returned to Tolkien in high school, reading LotR
                          in its entirety, then rereading. I actually hated to reread it
                          too often, as it was such a lush world to inhabit, I always
                          hated its being over. But after LotR, and in college, I
                          discovered Frank Herbert, and read the first six (!!!) of
                          his Dune series before they became tedious.

                          As an adult, I've tried Le Guin and Rowling, but didn't
                          much care for either of them. Over the last several years,
                          I've become much more interested in tales that have a more
                          archaic "high" linguistic style, such as Walter Scott's
                          historical romances (the Waverley books) and, especially, William Morris.

                          But, I've been enjoying this thread and will save it...looks
                          like there are many authors out there I've not sampled, certainly,
                          and I expect that's true of most of us!

                          Jef



                          --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "shawnareppert" wrote:
                          >
                          > OK, here's a question for the group to get some discussion going:
                          >
                          > If Tolkien was for you, as it was for me, your first step into fantasy literature addiction, what was your next step down the path?
                          >
                          > For myself, it was Robin Hood by Paul Creswick. Not strictly fantasy, but it had the same feel, the same elevated language, milieu, heroism and concern for honor.
                          >
                          > Anyone else?
                          >
                          > --Shawna Reppert
                          >
                          > author of The Stolen Luck, coming soon from Carina Press
                          >
                          > www.ShawnaReppert.com
                          >
                        • Doug Kane
                          Here is an update on the situation with the lawsuit filed by the Tolkien Estate and Harper Collins against Saul Zaentz and Company, and Warner Brothers/New
                          Message 12 of 26 , Feb 6, 2013
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                            Here is an update on the situation with the lawsuit filed by the Tolkien Estate and Harper Collins against Saul Zaentz and Company, and Warner Brothers/New Line.  Zaentz and WB have responded to the lawsuit by, in addition to denying the allegations, filing counterclaims for declaratory relief and for damages for breach of the implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing inherent in all contracts under U.S. law.  I have had a chance to review these documents, and I have to say that it appears that they have a pretty compelling case as the issue of online games (perhaps not so much with the slot machine issue).  They cite correspondence going back to 1996 in which with Harper Collins and the Estate's attorney concede that Zaentz has the right to online video games based on The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. Perhaps most interesting, they cite a September 2010 "regrant" agreement in which the Estate confirms the rights held by Zaentz, and licenced to Warners/New Line. That must be the agreement that was referred to in Entertainment Weekly back in October 2010, in which Jackson was quoted as saying that one of the issues causing the delay was negotiations with the Estate over rights issues. I think it is likely that I will get a chance to see that agreement (as well as the other documentation that Zaentz and Warners say they have) over the course of the lawsuit, if it reaches the point that motions for summary judgment are filed. 
                             
                            It is, of course, possibly that Zaentz and WB are misrepresenting the history and that the true facts will support the position of the Estate and Harper Collins, but right now it looks to me like they are on pretty shaky legal grounds.
                             
                            Doug
                          • GH Chinoy
                            Doug, Thanks for the update - fascinating (ok, I find it fascinating) stuff. Would you happen to have references to the documents/filings? Thanks, H
                            Message 13 of 26 , Feb 6, 2013
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                              Doug,

                              Thanks for the update - fascinating (ok, I find it fascinating) stuff. Would you happen to have references to the documents/filings?

                              Thanks,

                              H


                              On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 11:54 AM, Doug Kane <dougkane@...> wrote:
                               

                              Here is an update on the situation with the lawsuit filed by the Tolkien Estate and Harper Collins against Saul Zaentz and Company, and Warner Brothers/New Line.  Zaentz and WB have responded to the lawsuit by, in addition to denying the allegations, filing counterclaims for declaratory relief and for damages for breach of the implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing inherent in all contracts under U.S. law.  I have had a chance to review these documents, and I have to say that it appears that they have a pretty compelling case as the issue of online games (perhaps not so much with the slot machine issue).  They cite correspondence going back to 1996 in which with Harper Collins and the Estate's attorney concede that Zaentz has the right to online video games based on The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. Perhaps most interesting, they cite a September 2010 "regrant" agreement in which the Estate confirms the rights held by Zaentz, and licenced to Warners/New Line. That must be the agreement that was referred to in Entertainment Weekly back in October 2010, in which Jackson was quoted as saying that one of the issues causing the delay was negotiations with the Estate over rights issues. I think it is likely that I will get a chance to see that agreement (as well as the other documentation that Zaentz and Warners say they have) over the course of the lawsuit, if it reaches the point that motions for summary judgment are filed. 
                               
                              It is, of course, possibly that Zaentz and WB are misrepresenting the history and that the true facts will support the position of the Estate and Harper Collins, but right now it looks to me like they are on pretty shaky legal grounds.
                               
                              Doug


                            • David Bratman
                              According to http://file770.com/?p=11534 the Zaentz countersuit claims that the movies and their spinoffs, and not the books themselves, are responsible for
                              Message 14 of 26 , Feb 6, 2013
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                                According to http://file770.com/?p=11534 the Zaentz countersuit claims that
                                the movies and their spinoffs, and not the books themselves, are responsible
                                for Tolkien's popularity. May we have done with such nonsense?


                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "Doug Kane" <dougkane@...>
                                To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 10:54 AM
                                Subject: [mythsoc] Law suit update


                                Here is an update on the situation with the lawsuit filed by the Tolkien
                                Estate and Harper Collins against Saul Zaentz and Company, and Warner
                                Brothers/New Line. Zaentz and WB have responded to the lawsuit by, in
                                addition to denying the allegations, filing counterclaims for declaratory
                                relief and for damages for breach of the implied covenant of good faith and
                                fair dealing inherent in all contracts under U.S. law. I have had a chance
                                to review these documents, and I have to say that it appears that they have
                                a pretty compelling case as the issue of online games (perhaps not so much
                                with the slot machine issue). They cite correspondence going back to 1996
                                in which with Harper Collins and the Estate's attorney concede that Zaentz
                                has the right to online video games based on The Hobbit and The Lord of the
                                Rings. Perhaps most interesting, they cite a September 2010 "regrant"
                                agreement in which the Estate confirms the rights held by Zaentz, and
                                licenced to Warners/New Line. That must be the agreement that was referred
                                to in Entertainment Weekly back in October 2010, in which Jackson was quoted
                                as saying that one of the issues causing the delay was negotiations with the
                                Estate over rights issues. I think it is likely that I will get a chance to
                                see that agreement (as well as the other documentation that Zaentz and
                                Warners say they have) over the course of the lawsuit, if it reaches the
                                point that motions for summary judgment are filed.

                                It is, of course, possibly that Zaentz and WB are misrepresenting the
                                history and that the true facts will support the position of the Estate and
                                Harper Collins, but right now it looks to me like they are on pretty shaky
                                legal grounds.

                                Doug
                              • Doug Kane
                                I accessed the documents through my PACER ( Public Access to Court Electronic Records ) account. I believe that one or more periodicals printed a link to
                                Message 15 of 26 , Feb 6, 2013
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                                  I accessed the documents through my PACER ("Public Access to Court Electronic Records") account.  I believe that one or more periodicals printed a link to Zaentz's response last week, but unfortunately, I don't have that link.  What a second, let me see if I can find it. ... Here you go, here is Zaentz's Answer and Counterclaim:  http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/sites/default/files/custom/Documents/ESQ/GGDOCS1-%231878321-v1-CONFORMED_Complaint.pdf
                                   
                                  Doug

                                  From: GH Chinoy
                                  Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 11:19 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Law suit update

                                   

                                  Doug,

                                  Thanks for the update - fascinating (ok, I find it fascinating) stuff. Would you happen to have references to the documents/filings?

                                  Thanks,

                                  H


                                  On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 11:54 AM, Doug Kane <dougkane@...> wrote:
                                   

                                  Here is an update on the situation with the lawsuit filed by the Tolkien Estate and Harper Collins against Saul Zaentz and Company, and Warner Brothers/New Line.  Zaentz and WB have responded to the lawsuit by, in addition to denying the allegations, filing counterclaims for declaratory relief and for damages for breach of the implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing inherent in all contracts under U.S. law.  I have had a chance to review these documents, and I have to say that it appears that they have a pretty compelling case as the issue of online games (perhaps not so much with the slot machine issue).  They cite correspondence going back to 1996 in which with Harper Collins and the Estate's attorney concede that Zaentz has the right to online video games based on The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. Perhaps most interesting, they cite a September 2010 "regrant" agreement in which the Estate confirms the rights held by Zaentz, and licenced to Warners/New Line. That must be the agreement that was referred to in Entertainment Weekly back in October 2010, in which Jackson was quoted as saying that one of the issues causing the delay was negotiations with the Estate over rights issues. I think it is likely that I will get a chance to see that agreement (as well as the other documentation that Zaentz and Warners say they have) over the course of the lawsuit, if it reaches the point that motions for summary judgment are filed. 
                                   
                                  It is, of course, possibly that Zaentz and WB are misrepresenting the history and that the true facts will support the position of the Estate and Harper Collins, but right now it looks to me like they are on pretty shaky legal grounds.
                                   
                                  Doug



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                                • Doug Kane
                                  Sorry, that is actually a link to the original Complaint, not Zaentz s response. From: Doug Kane Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 11:28 AM To:
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Feb 6, 2013
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                                    Sorry, that is actually a link to the original Complaint, not Zaentz's response.

                                    From: Doug Kane
                                    Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 11:28 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Law suit update

                                     

                                    I accessed the documents through my PACER ("Public Access to Court Electronic Records") account.  I believe that one or more periodicals printed a link to Zaentz's response last week, but unfortunately, I don't have that link.  What a second, let me see if I can find it. ... Here you go, here is Zaentz's Answer and Counterclaim:  http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/sites/default/files/custom/Documents/ESQ/GGDOCS1-%231878321-v1-CONFORMED_Complaint.pdf
                                     
                                    Doug

                                    From: GH Chinoy
                                    Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 11:19 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Law suit update

                                     

                                    Doug,

                                    Thanks for the update - fascinating (ok, I find it fascinating) stuff. Would you happen to have references to the documents/filings?

                                    Thanks,

                                    H


                                    On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 11:54 AM, Doug Kane <dougkane@...> wrote:
                                     

                                    Here is an update on the situation with the lawsuit filed by the Tolkien Estate and Harper Collins against Saul Zaentz and Company, and Warner Brothers/New Line.  Zaentz and WB have responded to the lawsuit by, in addition to denying the allegations, filing counterclaims for declaratory relief and for damages for breach of the implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing inherent in all contracts under U.S. law.  I have had a chance to review these documents, and I have to say that it appears that they have a pretty compelling case as the issue of online games (perhaps not so much with the slot machine issue).  They cite correspondence going back to 1996 in which with Harper Collins and the Estate's attorney concede that Zaentz has the right to online video games based on The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. Perhaps most interesting, they cite a September 2010 "regrant" agreement in which the Estate confirms the rights held by Zaentz, and licenced to Warners/New Line. That must be the agreement that was referred to in Entertainment Weekly back in October 2010, in which Jackson was quoted as saying that one of the issues causing the delay was negotiations with the Estate over rights issues. I think it is likely that I will get a chance to see that agreement (as well as the other documentation that Zaentz and Warners say they have) over the course of the lawsuit, if it reaches the point that motions for summary judgment are filed. 
                                     
                                    It is, of course, possibly that Zaentz and WB are misrepresenting the history and that the true facts will support the position of the Estate and Harper Collins, but right now it looks to me like they are on pretty shaky legal grounds.
                                     
                                    Doug



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                                  • R.J. Anderson
                                    Jason, I almost mentioned THE TOWER OF GEBURAH myself! Even as a child reader I was appalled at how much he ripped off of Tolkien (I recognized the scene where
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Feb 6, 2013
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                                      Jason, I almost mentioned THE TOWER OF GEBURAH myself! Even as a child reader I was appalled at how much he ripped off of Tolkien (I recognized the scene where the children almost get "eaten" by the trees right away), and yet there are some gems of original thinking in there as well. I think THE IRON SCEPTRE holds up better as an original narrative (though my brother says that's John White doing Donaldson instead of John White doing Tolkien, the similarity is less blatant).

                                      Though a few years later I tried to read the third novel GAAL THE CONQUEROR, and it didn't work for me at all. The heavy-handed psychobabble ("Oh no! We're caught in a Guilt Trap!") was off-putting to say the least, and the story seemed thin and simplistic. Haven't bothered to check out anything else White's written since then.
                                      --
                                      Rebecca
                                    • Westermeyer GS11 Paul W
                                      This is great question, as with others, Tolkien wasn t my gateway either. :) The first great love of my reading life was history, specifically military
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Feb 6, 2013
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                                        This is great question, as with others, Tolkien wasn't my 'gateway' either. :)

                                        The first great love of my reading life was history, specifically military history, and more specifically WWII. I LOVED reading anything WWII in 4th grade. That eventually led to my reading some of Howard Pyle's works on King Arthur and Robin Hood, as I just ran out of WWII and even WWI books in my parents small book collection and the almost as small rural elementary school library. We didn't have a Public Library out in the country where I lived, back then.

                                        In 6th grade, at one of those school book sales I got a copy of Lloyd Alexander's _The High King_, the end of his Prydain series. I loved it, and started looking for more fantasy. I don't recall the exact order but in middle school I discovered both Tolkien and AD&D near simultaneously, and I began the habit I have now of rereading Tolkien every year. I then expanded to ancient history (especially loved the Gallic Wars and Bullfinch) and historical fiction but the school library had little fantasy beyond Tolkien. I recall when they finally opened a small branch library in my town I was over-joyed to discover David Edding's Belgariad, and once I could drive and thus finally get to the suburbs and the mall I discovered bookstores and started really engaging with fantasy literature.

                                        I was disappointed when I was younger that I could find so few of the books listed in Gygax's AD&D DMG appendix on fantasy literature, but I've been slowly reading my way through it over the years.

                                        Looking back, Tolkien has impacted me most profoundly, but there are other writers not far behind. Lloyd Alexander's Prydain series, Susan Cooper's Dark is Rising Series, the first three books of LeGuin's Earthsea series, and Mary Stewart's Merlin trilogy all top the list for fantasy authors; Alexander Dumas' Three Musketeers, Wyss' Swiss Family Roberston, ERB's Tarzan, and Verne's 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea are the most influential classics for me.

                                        It is interesting to see my children grow up in a house filled with books (very unlike my own childhood) and with a father who obsessively promotes reading. They seem to be good readers, and have their own tastes. My daughter complains we have nothing to read, because she doesn't want to read any of the hundreds of fantasy, history, or adventure tales - she prefers 'modern' tales with little supernatural elment unless it is vampires or werewolves. My son, in 4th grade, seems as obsessed with military history as I was at that age - he liked it when I read the Hobbit to him at bedtime, and loved the movie (I didn't) and likes Alexander's Prydain series, which I am reading to him at night now, but on his own he goes for the history books. I wonder if he will become fascinated with Tolkien as he gets older.

                                        Paul Westermeyer
                                        Historian, History Division
                                        Marine Corps University
                                        Paul.Westermeyer@...
                                        http://www.history.usmc.mil

                                        "The first law for the historian is that he shall never dare utter an untruth. The second is that he shall suppress nothing that is true. Moreover, there shall be no suspicion of partiality in his writing, or of malice." Marcus Tullius Cicero, De Oratore, II.XV,62

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                                      • Doug Kane
                                        I agree that that claim is ludicrous, but it is legally irrelevant. From: David Bratman Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 11:27 AM To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Feb 6, 2013
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                                          I agree that that claim is ludicrous, but it is legally irrelevant.

                                          Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 11:27 AM
                                          Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Law suit update

                                           

                                          According to http://file770.com/?p=11534 the Zaentz countersuit claims that
                                          the movies and their spinoffs, and not the books themselves, are responsible
                                          for Tolkien's popularity. May we have done with such nonsense?

                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: "Doug Kane" dougkane@...>
                                          To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 10:54 AM
                                          Subject: [mythsoc] Law suit update

                                          Here is an update on the situation with the lawsuit filed by the Tolkien
                                          Estate and Harper Collins against Saul Zaentz and Company, and Warner
                                          Brothers/New Line. Zaentz and WB have responded to the lawsuit by, in
                                          addition to denying the allegations, filing counterclaims for declaratory
                                          relief and for damages for breach of the implied covenant of good faith and
                                          fair dealing inherent in all contracts under U.S. law. I have had a chance
                                          to review these documents, and I have to say that it appears that they have
                                          a pretty compelling case as the issue of online games (perhaps not so much
                                          with the slot machine issue). They cite correspondence going back to 1996
                                          in which with Harper Collins and the Estate's attorney concede that Zaentz
                                          has the right to online video games based on The Hobbit and The Lord of the
                                          Rings. Perhaps most interesting, they cite a September 2010 "regrant"
                                          agreement in which the Estate confirms the rights held by Zaentz, and
                                          licenced to Warners/New Line. That must be the agreement that was referred
                                          to in Entertainment Weekly back in October 2010, in which Jackson was quoted
                                          as saying that one of the issues causing the delay was negotiations with the
                                          Estate over rights issues. I think it is likely that I will get a chance to
                                          see that agreement (as well as the other documentation that Zaentz and
                                          Warners say they have) over the course of the lawsuit, if it reaches the
                                          point that motions for summary judgment are filed.

                                          It is, of course, possibly that Zaentz and WB are misrepresenting the
                                          history and that the true facts will support the position of the Estate and
                                          Harper Collins, but right now it looks to me like they are on pretty shaky
                                          legal grounds.

                                          Doug


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                                          Version: 10.0.1430 / Virus Database: 2639/5585 - Release Date: 02/06/13

                                        • "Marcel R. Aubron-Bülles"
                                          When I first read The Lord of the Rings in German I immediately went to the British Council library in Cologne (at that time they weren t all amalgated into
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Feb 6, 2013
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                                            When I first read "The Lord of the Rings" in German I immediately went
                                            to the British Council library in Cologne (at that time they weren't all
                                            amalgated into the one in Berlin only) and asked for a membership which
                                            they considered odd for a fourteen year old German ;) (that was in 1986,
                                            mind.)

                                            Luckily enough, they had LotR, Hobbit and Sil in English there. In
                                            addition to this I first saw "Pictures by Tolkien" (and to this very day
                                            want a copy of it) and Barbara Strachey's "Frodo's Journeys." I think
                                            they even had a copy of "Unfinished Tales" but that was all they had on
                                            Tolkien.

                                            As I had run out of eminent fantasy authors (oh, I forgot - they had
                                            the first Discworld novels and that's when I started reading Pratchett!)
                                            I fell for Nigel Tranter as I also have a penchant for historical novels
                                            - the pre-1286 Scotland/Viking stories (Lord of the Isles etc.)

                                            I never stopped reading. They had Welsh for beginners (I taught myself
                                            some - see Tolkien); Old English grammars (taught myself some) and I
                                            tried to have a proper Tolkien exhibition done many years later.
                                            Unfortunately, the Wall fell and all British Council branches were
                                            closed, quite in contradiction to historical connections (with Cologne
                                            being the major city in the British Zone after the war - let's forget
                                            about that Hamburg thingy ...)

                                            And all that reading led to me study English Literature and Linguistics.

                                            --

                                            Best wishes,

                                            Marcel Aubron-Bülles

                                            http://www.thetolkienist.com
                                          • Jason Fisher
                                            I remember them being rip-offs of Narnia especially, even more than Tolkien or Donaldson, and White even admitted this in one of the later books. A bunch of
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Feb 6, 2013
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                                              I remember them being rip-offs of Narnia especially, even more than Tolkien or Donaldson, and White even admitted this in one of the later books. A bunch of kids in Winnipeg, Canada find an old TV set in an attic, turn it on and see another world, which they are all presently sucked into. Sounds a bit like a cross between the Wardrobe and the painting in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader. Still, when I read them as a child, I enjoyed the Anthropos books. They didn't stick with me much, except for a few names (King Kardia, Inkleth, etc.) and some of the fine illustrations. I seem to remember one with a giant threatening chicken.

                                              Nice to know somebody else out there read these too! :)

                                              Jase


                                              From: R.J. Anderson <rjawriter@...>
                                              To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Wednesday, February 6, 2013 11:41 AM
                                              Subject: [mythsoc] Re: Tolkien as a gateway drug

                                               
                                              Jason, I almost mentioned THE TOWER OF GEBURAH myself! Even as a child reader I was appalled at how much he ripped off of Tolkien (I recognized the scene where the children almost get "eaten" by the trees right away), and yet there are some gems of original thinking in there as well. I think THE IRON SCEPTRE holds up better as an original narrative (though my brother says that's John White doing Donaldson instead of John White doing Tolkien, the similarity is less blatant).

                                              Though a few years later I tried to read the third novel GAAL THE CONQUEROR, and it didn't work for me at all. The heavy-handed psychobabble ("Oh no! We're caught in a Guilt Trap!") was off-putting to say the least, and the story seemed thin and simplistic. Haven't bothered to check out anything else White's written since then.
                                              --
                                              Rebecca


                                            • C.N. Bartch
                                              Just because I haven t seen anybody mention them yet, I ll throw in that one of the series I ve enjoyed the most after Tolkien drew me into fantasy is the
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Feb 6, 2013
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                                                Just because I haven't seen anybody mention them yet, I'll throw in that one of the series I've enjoyed the most after Tolkien drew me into fantasy is the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan.

                                                ~Chris B.

                                                On Feb 5, 2013 5:02 AM, "shawnareppert" <evenstar@...> wrote:
                                                 

                                                OK, here's a question for the group to get some discussion going:

                                                If Tolkien was for you, as it was for me, your first step into fantasy literature addiction, what was your next step down the path?

                                                For myself, it was Robin Hood by Paul Creswick. Not strictly fantasy, but it had the same feel, the same elevated language, milieu, heroism and concern for honor.

                                                Anyone else?

                                                --Shawna Reppert

                                                author of The Stolen Luck, coming soon from Carina Press

                                                www.ShawnaReppert.com

                                              • JOSEPH
                                                And how did I forget d Aulaire s Greek Myths and Norse Gods & Giants? And also (and I just had to Google this one up) The Big Joke Game by Scott Corbett? And
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Feb 6, 2013
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                                                  And how did I forget d'Aulaire's Greek Myths and Norse Gods & Giants? And also (and I just had to Google this one up) The Big Joke Game by Scott Corbett? And probably some of Andre Norton's colored magic books.

                                                  As far as SF, I came to that early also -- I obsessively read John Christopher's Tripods trilogy, and Dad had a bunch of Heinlein juveniles.

                                                  --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "shawnareppert" wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > OK, here's a question for the group to get some discussion going:
                                                  >
                                                  > If Tolkien was for you, as it was for me, your first step into fantasy literature addiction, what was your next step down the path?
                                                  >
                                                  > For myself, it was Robin Hood by Paul Creswick. Not strictly fantasy, but it had the same feel, the same elevated language, milieu, heroism and concern for honor.
                                                  >
                                                  > Anyone else?
                                                  >
                                                  > --Shawna Reppert
                                                  >
                                                  > author of The Stolen Luck, coming soon from Carina Press
                                                  >
                                                  > www.ShawnaReppert.com
                                                  >
                                                • shawnareppert
                                                  Love all the discussion, especially love seeing my old friends mentioned. Ursula LeGuin, Robin McKinley, Ray Bradbury (Something Wicked This Way Comes, oh,
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Feb 7, 2013
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                                                    Love all the discussion, especially love seeing my old 'friends' mentioned. Ursula LeGuin, Robin McKinley, Ray Bradbury (Something Wicked This Way Comes, oh, yes.) Patricia McPhillip just keeps getting better and better.

                                                    Surprised no one else mentioned one of my later, twenty-plus year addiction: Charles de Lint. His writing totally rocks my world. Had the privilege to workshop with him, and can report he is also a wonderful gentleman and a superb teacher.


                                                    --Shawna Reppert

                                                    author of The Stolen Luck, coming soon from Carina Press

                                                    www.ShawnaReppert.com
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