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Re: [mythsoc] a quick question

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  • Patrick Wynne
    _Qenya_ is pronounced exactly the same as _Quenya_, i.e., [KWEN-ya]. — Pat ... _Qenya_ is pronounced exactly the same as _Quenya_, i.e., [KWEN-ya]. — Pat
    Message 1 of 9 , Jan 28, 2013
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      _Qenya_ is pronounced exactly the same as _Quenya_, i.e., [KWEN-ya].

      — Pat

      On Jan 28, 2013, at 5:50 PM, John Rateliff <sacnoth@...> wrote:

       

      Here's a quick question for the linguistically inclined.
      How is the name of the original form of Tolkien's earliest Elven language, QENYA, pronounced?
      Is it KEN-YAH or is it KWEN-YAH?
      I've always assumed the latter, but decided it's better to ask the experts.
      Elucidation much appreciated.
      --John R.


    • John Rateliff
      Thanks all. I d assumed KW was right, given the line in Tolkien s prefatory note to THE HOBBIT: There was no rune for Q (use CW) --THE ANNOTATED HOBBIT,
      Message 2 of 9 , Jan 28, 2013
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        Thanks all. I'd assumed 'KW' was right, given the line in Tolkien's prefatory note to THE HOBBIT: "There was no rune for Q (use CW)" --THE ANNOTATED HOBBIT, p. [27]. But then I cd easily have been wrong. It's nice to get confirmation, and to find such unanimity in the response. Again, many thanks!

        --John R.


        On Jan 28, 2013, at 3:50 PM, John Rateliff wrote:
        > Here's a quick question for the linguistically inclined.
        > How is the name of the original form of Tolkien's earliest Elven language, QENYA, pronounced?
        > Is it KEN-YAH or is it KWEN-YAH?
        > I've always assumed the latter, but decided it's better to ask the experts.
        > Elucidation much appreciated.
        > --John R.
      • Jason Fisher
        Well, actually, John, just to pick nits, I m not sure Tolkien meant the same thing in the prefatory note to The Hobbit. There, I think what he actually meant
        Message 3 of 9 , Jan 29, 2013
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          Well, actually, John, just to pick nits, I'm not sure Tolkien meant the same thing in the prefatory note to The Hobbit. There, I think what he actually meant was to use CW *in place of QU*, because there is no Q. He was addressing young people after all, and talking about using runes to write English, and the authentic ones, not his invented ones. Splitting hairs, I suppose, but I don't think this prefatory note would have been a very solid argument re: the pronunciation of Qenya. :)

          Best,
          Jase


          From: John Rateliff <sacnoth@...>
          To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:01 PM
          Subject: Re: [mythsoc] a quick question

           
          Thanks all. I'd assumed 'KW' was right, given the line in Tolkien's prefatory note to THE HOBBIT: "There was no rune for Q (use CW)" --THE ANNOTATED HOBBIT, p. [27]. But then I cd easily have been wrong. It's nice to get confirmation, and to find such unanimity in the response. Again, many thanks!

          --John R.

          On Jan 28, 2013, at 3:50 PM, John Rateliff wrote:
          > Here's a quick question for the linguistically inclined.
          > How is the name of the original form of Tolkien's earliest Elven language, QENYA, pronounced?
          > Is it KEN-YAH or is it KWEN-YAH?
          > I've always assumed the latter, but decided it's better to ask the experts.
          > Elucidation much appreciated.
          > --John R.



        • IcelofAngeln
          ... However, in the context of TH Tolkien was referring to the Anglo-Saxon runes used in that book, not the Cirth. A-S indeed had no Q, although the sound
          Message 4 of 9 , Jan 29, 2013
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            --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, John Rateliff wrote:
            >
            > Thanks all. I'd assumed 'KW' was right, given the line in Tolkien's prefatory note to THE HOBBIT: "There was no rune for Q (use CW)" --THE ANNOTATED HOBBIT, p. [27]. But then I cd easily have been wrong. It's nice to get confirmation, and to find such unanimity in the response. Again, many thanks!
            >



            However, in the context of TH Tolkien was referring to the Anglo-Saxon runes used in that book, not the Cirth. A-S indeed had no "Q," although the sound existed and was written as "CW."
          • David Giraudeau
            Note also that, interestingly, Tolkien sometimes used very different ways to spell /kw/, such as (PE12:ix-x) : The inside back cover of the notebook contains
            Message 5 of 9 , Jan 31, 2013
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              Note also that, interestingly,  Tolkien sometimes used very different ways to spell /kw/, such as (PE12:ix-x) :

              The inside back cover of the notebook contains an array of unglossed words and phrases. Their purpose seems to be to explore certain variant spelling conventions, such as q vs. cw vs. cu.
              [...]
              Other words on the page include: Qildaracte; cwilda, cuilda, cuela, cuelume, quelume, qelume, cwelume; cwandi, cwanwi; Cvildare, Cwildare; Cvottar, Cwottar; Carquila, Carqila; Saquila, Saqila; sinqi, sinqui, sincui, sincvi, sincwi; sinco, sincwi, sincor; tiastáva tiulusse; tuilindo, tuile, tyulusse; Twile, Tuile; Tyastava; and Ciule. Some forms later scribbled out include cuiule, cuyule, Cwile. Cialma, and Qiule.

              See also minkwe 'eleven' (VT48:7)  or tolokwe 'eighteen'' (VT48:21)

              Cordially,

              David
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