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Re: [mythsoc] a quick question

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  • Mich
    it s KWEN-YAH it sounds like it would have a q in it. so it is KWEN-YAH hth. from Mich. ... From: John Rateliff To: Mythsoc (mythsoc@yahoogroups.com) Sent:
    Message 1 of 9 , Jan 28, 2013
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      it's KWEN-YAH
       it sounds like it would have a q in it. so it is KWEN-YAH
       hth. from Mich.
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 6:50 PM
      Subject: [mythsoc] a quick question

       

      Here's a quick question for the linguistically inclined.
      How is the name of the original form of Tolkien's earliest Elven language, QENYA, pronounced?
      Is it KEN-YAH or is it KWEN-YAH?
      I've always assumed the latter, but decided it's better to ask the experts.
      Elucidation much appreciated.
      --John R.

    • Andrew Higgins
      John Hello. I was in Oxford this weekend doing a marathon of archival work at the Bod Library for my Phd and thought of our wonderful lunch at the Lamb and
      Message 2 of 9 , Jan 28, 2013
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        John

        Hello.  I was in Oxford this weekend doing a marathon of archival work at the Bod Library for my Phd and thought of our wonderful lunch at the Lamb and the Flag with Dimitra.

        I believe it is KWEN-YAH - I have always followed the Consonant Guide on Page 15 of Parma 12 where the voiceless explosive is q-kw.  Although I have heard Verlyn Flieger who am watching right now talk about On Fairy-stories on our Mythgard Class pronounce it as Kenya - but I use the KW.

        Sorry to not be coming to Valpariso - your talk on how The Hobbit influenced The Silmarillion sounds really intriguing and hope to read it some day!  

        Best, Andy

        On Jan 28, 2013, at 11:50 PM, John Rateliff <sacnoth@...> wrote:

         

        Here's a quick question for the linguistically inclined.
        How is the name of the original form of Tolkien's earliest Elven language, QENYA, pronounced?
        Is it KEN-YAH or is it KWEN-YAH?
        I've always assumed the latter, but decided it's better to ask the experts.
        Elucidation much appreciated.
        --John R.

      • Patrick Wynne
        _Qenya_ is pronounced exactly the same as _Quenya_, i.e., [KWEN-ya]. — Pat ... _Qenya_ is pronounced exactly the same as _Quenya_, i.e., [KWEN-ya]. — Pat
        Message 3 of 9 , Jan 28, 2013
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          _Qenya_ is pronounced exactly the same as _Quenya_, i.e., [KWEN-ya].

          — Pat

          On Jan 28, 2013, at 5:50 PM, John Rateliff <sacnoth@...> wrote:

           

          Here's a quick question for the linguistically inclined.
          How is the name of the original form of Tolkien's earliest Elven language, QENYA, pronounced?
          Is it KEN-YAH or is it KWEN-YAH?
          I've always assumed the latter, but decided it's better to ask the experts.
          Elucidation much appreciated.
          --John R.


        • John Rateliff
          Thanks all. I d assumed KW was right, given the line in Tolkien s prefatory note to THE HOBBIT: There was no rune for Q (use CW) --THE ANNOTATED HOBBIT,
          Message 4 of 9 , Jan 28, 2013
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            Thanks all. I'd assumed 'KW' was right, given the line in Tolkien's prefatory note to THE HOBBIT: "There was no rune for Q (use CW)" --THE ANNOTATED HOBBIT, p. [27]. But then I cd easily have been wrong. It's nice to get confirmation, and to find such unanimity in the response. Again, many thanks!

            --John R.


            On Jan 28, 2013, at 3:50 PM, John Rateliff wrote:
            > Here's a quick question for the linguistically inclined.
            > How is the name of the original form of Tolkien's earliest Elven language, QENYA, pronounced?
            > Is it KEN-YAH or is it KWEN-YAH?
            > I've always assumed the latter, but decided it's better to ask the experts.
            > Elucidation much appreciated.
            > --John R.
          • Jason Fisher
            Well, actually, John, just to pick nits, I m not sure Tolkien meant the same thing in the prefatory note to The Hobbit. There, I think what he actually meant
            Message 5 of 9 , Jan 29, 2013
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              Well, actually, John, just to pick nits, I'm not sure Tolkien meant the same thing in the prefatory note to The Hobbit. There, I think what he actually meant was to use CW *in place of QU*, because there is no Q. He was addressing young people after all, and talking about using runes to write English, and the authentic ones, not his invented ones. Splitting hairs, I suppose, but I don't think this prefatory note would have been a very solid argument re: the pronunciation of Qenya. :)

              Best,
              Jase


              From: John Rateliff <sacnoth@...>
              To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:01 PM
              Subject: Re: [mythsoc] a quick question

               
              Thanks all. I'd assumed 'KW' was right, given the line in Tolkien's prefatory note to THE HOBBIT: "There was no rune for Q (use CW)" --THE ANNOTATED HOBBIT, p. [27]. But then I cd easily have been wrong. It's nice to get confirmation, and to find such unanimity in the response. Again, many thanks!

              --John R.

              On Jan 28, 2013, at 3:50 PM, John Rateliff wrote:
              > Here's a quick question for the linguistically inclined.
              > How is the name of the original form of Tolkien's earliest Elven language, QENYA, pronounced?
              > Is it KEN-YAH or is it KWEN-YAH?
              > I've always assumed the latter, but decided it's better to ask the experts.
              > Elucidation much appreciated.
              > --John R.



            • IcelofAngeln
              ... However, in the context of TH Tolkien was referring to the Anglo-Saxon runes used in that book, not the Cirth. A-S indeed had no Q, although the sound
              Message 6 of 9 , Jan 29, 2013
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                --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, John Rateliff wrote:
                >
                > Thanks all. I'd assumed 'KW' was right, given the line in Tolkien's prefatory note to THE HOBBIT: "There was no rune for Q (use CW)" --THE ANNOTATED HOBBIT, p. [27]. But then I cd easily have been wrong. It's nice to get confirmation, and to find such unanimity in the response. Again, many thanks!
                >



                However, in the context of TH Tolkien was referring to the Anglo-Saxon runes used in that book, not the Cirth. A-S indeed had no "Q," although the sound existed and was written as "CW."
              • David Giraudeau
                Note also that, interestingly, Tolkien sometimes used very different ways to spell /kw/, such as (PE12:ix-x) : The inside back cover of the notebook contains
                Message 7 of 9 , Jan 31, 2013
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                  Note also that, interestingly,  Tolkien sometimes used very different ways to spell /kw/, such as (PE12:ix-x) :

                  The inside back cover of the notebook contains an array of unglossed words and phrases. Their purpose seems to be to explore certain variant spelling conventions, such as q vs. cw vs. cu.
                  [...]
                  Other words on the page include: Qildaracte; cwilda, cuilda, cuela, cuelume, quelume, qelume, cwelume; cwandi, cwanwi; Cvildare, Cwildare; Cvottar, Cwottar; Carquila, Carqila; Saquila, Saqila; sinqi, sinqui, sincui, sincvi, sincwi; sinco, sincwi, sincor; tiastáva tiulusse; tuilindo, tuile, tyulusse; Twile, Tuile; Tyastava; and Ciule. Some forms later scribbled out include cuiule, cuyule, Cwile. Cialma, and Qiule.

                  See also minkwe 'eleven' (VT48:7)  or tolokwe 'eighteen'' (VT48:21)

                  Cordially,

                  David
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