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a quick question

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  • John Rateliff
    Here s a quick question for the linguistically inclined. How is the name of the original form of Tolkien s earliest Elven language, QENYA, pronounced? Is it
    Message 1 of 9 , Jan 28, 2013
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      Here's a quick question for the linguistically inclined.
      How is the name of the original form of Tolkien's earliest Elven language, QENYA, pronounced?
      Is it KEN-YAH or is it KWEN-YAH?
      I've always assumed the latter, but decided it's better to ask the experts.
      Elucidation much appreciated.
      --John R.
    • Jason Fisher
      It s pronounced like KWEN-YAH. See the Qenyaqetsa in Parma Eldalamberon 12, p. 15, where the table of consonants makes it clear that q = kw. Best, Jason ...
      Message 2 of 9 , Jan 28, 2013
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        It's pronounced like KWEN-YAH. See the "Qenyaqetsa" in Parma Eldalamberon 12, p. 15, where the table of consonants makes it clear that q = kw.

        Best,
        Jason


        From: John Rateliff <sacnoth@...>
        To: "Mythsoc (mythsoc@yahoogroups.com)" <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 3:50 PM
        Subject: [mythsoc] a quick question

         
        Here's a quick question for the linguistically inclined.
        How is the name of the original form of Tolkien's earliest Elven language, QENYA, pronounced?
        Is it KEN-YAH or is it KWEN-YAH?
        I've always assumed the latter, but decided it's better to ask the experts.
        Elucidation much appreciated.
        --John R.


      • Mich
        it s KWEN-YAH it sounds like it would have a q in it. so it is KWEN-YAH hth. from Mich. ... From: John Rateliff To: Mythsoc (mythsoc@yahoogroups.com) Sent:
        Message 3 of 9 , Jan 28, 2013
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          it's KWEN-YAH
           it sounds like it would have a q in it. so it is KWEN-YAH
           hth. from Mich.
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 6:50 PM
          Subject: [mythsoc] a quick question

           

          Here's a quick question for the linguistically inclined.
          How is the name of the original form of Tolkien's earliest Elven language, QENYA, pronounced?
          Is it KEN-YAH or is it KWEN-YAH?
          I've always assumed the latter, but decided it's better to ask the experts.
          Elucidation much appreciated.
          --John R.

        • Andrew Higgins
          John Hello. I was in Oxford this weekend doing a marathon of archival work at the Bod Library for my Phd and thought of our wonderful lunch at the Lamb and
          Message 4 of 9 , Jan 28, 2013
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            John

            Hello.  I was in Oxford this weekend doing a marathon of archival work at the Bod Library for my Phd and thought of our wonderful lunch at the Lamb and the Flag with Dimitra.

            I believe it is KWEN-YAH - I have always followed the Consonant Guide on Page 15 of Parma 12 where the voiceless explosive is q-kw.  Although I have heard Verlyn Flieger who am watching right now talk about On Fairy-stories on our Mythgard Class pronounce it as Kenya - but I use the KW.

            Sorry to not be coming to Valpariso - your talk on how The Hobbit influenced The Silmarillion sounds really intriguing and hope to read it some day!  

            Best, Andy

            On Jan 28, 2013, at 11:50 PM, John Rateliff <sacnoth@...> wrote:

             

            Here's a quick question for the linguistically inclined.
            How is the name of the original form of Tolkien's earliest Elven language, QENYA, pronounced?
            Is it KEN-YAH or is it KWEN-YAH?
            I've always assumed the latter, but decided it's better to ask the experts.
            Elucidation much appreciated.
            --John R.

          • Patrick Wynne
            _Qenya_ is pronounced exactly the same as _Quenya_, i.e., [KWEN-ya]. — Pat ... _Qenya_ is pronounced exactly the same as _Quenya_, i.e., [KWEN-ya]. — Pat
            Message 5 of 9 , Jan 28, 2013
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              _Qenya_ is pronounced exactly the same as _Quenya_, i.e., [KWEN-ya].

              — Pat

              On Jan 28, 2013, at 5:50 PM, John Rateliff <sacnoth@...> wrote:

               

              Here's a quick question for the linguistically inclined.
              How is the name of the original form of Tolkien's earliest Elven language, QENYA, pronounced?
              Is it KEN-YAH or is it KWEN-YAH?
              I've always assumed the latter, but decided it's better to ask the experts.
              Elucidation much appreciated.
              --John R.


            • John Rateliff
              Thanks all. I d assumed KW was right, given the line in Tolkien s prefatory note to THE HOBBIT: There was no rune for Q (use CW) --THE ANNOTATED HOBBIT,
              Message 6 of 9 , Jan 28, 2013
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                Thanks all. I'd assumed 'KW' was right, given the line in Tolkien's prefatory note to THE HOBBIT: "There was no rune for Q (use CW)" --THE ANNOTATED HOBBIT, p. [27]. But then I cd easily have been wrong. It's nice to get confirmation, and to find such unanimity in the response. Again, many thanks!

                --John R.


                On Jan 28, 2013, at 3:50 PM, John Rateliff wrote:
                > Here's a quick question for the linguistically inclined.
                > How is the name of the original form of Tolkien's earliest Elven language, QENYA, pronounced?
                > Is it KEN-YAH or is it KWEN-YAH?
                > I've always assumed the latter, but decided it's better to ask the experts.
                > Elucidation much appreciated.
                > --John R.
              • Jason Fisher
                Well, actually, John, just to pick nits, I m not sure Tolkien meant the same thing in the prefatory note to The Hobbit. There, I think what he actually meant
                Message 7 of 9 , Jan 29, 2013
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                  Well, actually, John, just to pick nits, I'm not sure Tolkien meant the same thing in the prefatory note to The Hobbit. There, I think what he actually meant was to use CW *in place of QU*, because there is no Q. He was addressing young people after all, and talking about using runes to write English, and the authentic ones, not his invented ones. Splitting hairs, I suppose, but I don't think this prefatory note would have been a very solid argument re: the pronunciation of Qenya. :)

                  Best,
                  Jase


                  From: John Rateliff <sacnoth@...>
                  To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 11:01 PM
                  Subject: Re: [mythsoc] a quick question

                   
                  Thanks all. I'd assumed 'KW' was right, given the line in Tolkien's prefatory note to THE HOBBIT: "There was no rune for Q (use CW)" --THE ANNOTATED HOBBIT, p. [27]. But then I cd easily have been wrong. It's nice to get confirmation, and to find such unanimity in the response. Again, many thanks!

                  --John R.

                  On Jan 28, 2013, at 3:50 PM, John Rateliff wrote:
                  > Here's a quick question for the linguistically inclined.
                  > How is the name of the original form of Tolkien's earliest Elven language, QENYA, pronounced?
                  > Is it KEN-YAH or is it KWEN-YAH?
                  > I've always assumed the latter, but decided it's better to ask the experts.
                  > Elucidation much appreciated.
                  > --John R.



                • IcelofAngeln
                  ... However, in the context of TH Tolkien was referring to the Anglo-Saxon runes used in that book, not the Cirth. A-S indeed had no Q, although the sound
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jan 29, 2013
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                    --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, John Rateliff wrote:
                    >
                    > Thanks all. I'd assumed 'KW' was right, given the line in Tolkien's prefatory note to THE HOBBIT: "There was no rune for Q (use CW)" --THE ANNOTATED HOBBIT, p. [27]. But then I cd easily have been wrong. It's nice to get confirmation, and to find such unanimity in the response. Again, many thanks!
                    >



                    However, in the context of TH Tolkien was referring to the Anglo-Saxon runes used in that book, not the Cirth. A-S indeed had no "Q," although the sound existed and was written as "CW."
                  • David Giraudeau
                    Note also that, interestingly, Tolkien sometimes used very different ways to spell /kw/, such as (PE12:ix-x) : The inside back cover of the notebook contains
                    Message 9 of 9 , Jan 31, 2013
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                      Note also that, interestingly,  Tolkien sometimes used very different ways to spell /kw/, such as (PE12:ix-x) :

                      The inside back cover of the notebook contains an array of unglossed words and phrases. Their purpose seems to be to explore certain variant spelling conventions, such as q vs. cw vs. cu.
                      [...]
                      Other words on the page include: Qildaracte; cwilda, cuilda, cuela, cuelume, quelume, qelume, cwelume; cwandi, cwanwi; Cvildare, Cwildare; Cvottar, Cwottar; Carquila, Carqila; Saquila, Saqila; sinqi, sinqui, sincui, sincvi, sincwi; sinco, sincwi, sincor; tiastáva tiulusse; tuilindo, tuile, tyulusse; Twile, Tuile; Tyastava; and Ciule. Some forms later scribbled out include cuiule, cuyule, Cwile. Cialma, and Qiule.

                      See also minkwe 'eleven' (VT48:7)  or tolokwe 'eighteen'' (VT48:21)

                      Cordially,

                      David
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