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tolkien's 1960 Hobbett?

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  • Mich
    ok now I have to ask was Tolkien planning on re wrighting the Hobbett in 1960? since my ricorded books version of the hobbett says that it was published in
    Message 1 of 6 , Nov 12, 2012
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      ok now I have to ask was Tolkien planning on re wrighting the Hobbett in 1960? since my ricorded books version of the hobbett says that it was published in 1937 and then it was renewd in 1938 and again in 1966 and also in Humphrey Carpinder's byography of Tolkien J.R.R. Tolkien a byography it makes no menchen of a re right of the hobbett at least I don't think it does I will have to go back and check though. from Mich. 
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 2:53 PM
      Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Thoughts on the upcoming Hobbit Movie

       

      Well, as there's already a crowd . . . ;) 

      I shan't say what are the minority views here -- I agree with David that it isn't a binary thing, and so I suspect that we, in the end when all nuances are accounted for, are all a minority of one  :-) 

      It is, for instance, my impression that there are not many who would agree with me that it is a great pity that Tolkien abandoned his 1960 Hobbit - that he should have kept at it because it was a great improvement on his  story. I find that the attitude of the narrative voice in The Hobbit is occasionally overbearing or patronizing (where others see it as ironic), and I even find that is approaches the snide a couple of times. 

      But regardless of my own views on The Hobbit, I do find it is delightfully ironic that Peter Jackson is probably going to create a set of films that are closer in tone to what Tolkien wanted to achieve with his 1960 version than is any of the published editions of the book. Jackson will, judging both by the trailers so far and by anything else I've seen, try to target the same segment as he did with his adaptations of The Lord of the Rings, but while this target audience necessitated a drastic de-maturing of Tolkien's story, it will mean a maturing of the story of The Hobbit.

      For this reason, and because I am less attached to The Hobbit than I am to its sequel, I think I am likely to be more comfortable with the changes in tone and feel that Jackson will inevitably introduce (and also because I imagine that I am better prepared this time round than I was in 2003). 

      Anyway, I'll be there with all the family - probably not on the 12th, but some time before Christmas we'll take an evening out to enjoy the film and each other's company. 

      Best,
      Troels




      On 12 November 2012 19:03, Jason Fisher <visualweasel@...> wrote:


      I'll chime in too.

      I think I am in the minority on this list, being both very serious about Tolkien but also a fan of the Peter Jackson films. My chief concern with The Hobbit films was that Peter Jackson would feel compelled to match the tone of The Lord of the Rings -- that is to say, he would attempt to film something like Tolkien's 1960 revisions of The Hobbit (fortunately abandoned at Rivendell). So the more cartoonish the elements revealed in the trailers have been, the more encouraged I've been. At first, I thought Jackson went overboard trying to make all thirteen dwarves look completely distinct from one another, but I quickly realized that this was a good idea. They're all sort of interchangeable in the novel (some don't even have their own dialogue in the book), but remember their technicolor beards, hoods, and cloaks? Dwalin has a *blue* beard, for Heaven's sake! So the cartoonish and humorous elements are welcome, especially in the first half (or first third, perhaps I should say), since they'll better reflect the children's adventure tale that The Hobbit really is. I loved that little bit we glimpsed of the dwarves washing up in Bag End. As for inventions of Jackson's, we'll see, but I will say that I liked that bit with Radagast tickling a hedgehog. Again, the tone looks right. I do suspect Jackson will still overreach, both in plot and tone, especially with the Necromancer and White Council stuff, but probably also with the goblins, the storm giants, the trolls, etc., but as Gerry said, in some ways this is Jackson's story, and no longer Tolkien's. I'm looking forward to seeing what he comes up with.

      Best,
      Jason


      From: Gerry Blair <gerryblair68@...>
      To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 5:25 AM
      Subject: [mythsoc] Thoughts on the upcoming Hobbit Movie

       
      I am looking forward to seeing The Hobbit film despite any misgivings I may have. I will admit the first time I saw the dwarves they seemed almost cartoon like and obviously “fake” looking, though how an imaginary being could look real I don’t know. I did know this was not how I imagined them, but they have begun to grow on me. I do give MR. Jackson credit for having made an entertaining movie from LOTR, visually stunning, some things very cool and much like I had imagined them, others not so much. I never went to the theater to see the LOTR films because I am a firm believer that movies seldom if ever can do justice to a book. Yet after seeing them at home on DVD, they were fun to watch. I’m quite sure I will go to a theater to see The Hobbit; I won’t be able to resist. I think what disturbs me the most is after seeing the films I tend to see things as they appear in the films not as I would if it were left only to the imagination, and some how I think that is how it is should be, seen in the eye of one’s own imagination. I think there in the minds eye is the real magic of Faërie. When I see the movie I’ll remember this is not Tolkien’s story it is Peter Jackson’s. Yet being a Tolkien fan it is very cool to see some pretty good attempts to capture the magic of Faërie on film.







      --
          Love while you've got
              love to give.
          Live while you've got
              life to live.
       - Piet Hein, /Memento Vivere/

    • John Rateliff
      Hi Mich Here s a brief run down. Tolkien wrote THE HOBBIT between 1930 and 1932/33 (at least, that s our best guess). It was published in 1937. In about
      Message 2 of 6 , Nov 12, 2012
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        Hi Mich
           Here's a brief run down.
           Tolkien wrote THE HOBBIT between 1930 and 1932/33 (at least, that's our best guess). It was published in 1937.
           In about 1944/47 he re-wrote the Gollum chapter to better suit that character as he'd been developed in THE LORD OF THE RINGS. This revision was published as the "second edition" of THE HOBBIT in 1951.
           While finishing up LotR, he drafted "THE QUEST OF EREBOR", which wd have been part of Appendix A; it briefly retells the events of "An Unexpected Party" from Gandalf's point of view.
           In 1960, Tolkien decided to re-write the whole HOBBIT in the style of THE LORD OF THE RINGS, but abandoned the attempt when the party reached Rivendell. This fragment was published for the first time in my THE HISTORY OF THE HOBBIT in 2007.
           In 1965, Tolkien made a number of relatively small changes throughout THE HOBBIT; this was published as the "third edition".

           I hope this helps.
        --John R.   


        On Nov 12, 2012, at 1:13 PM, Mich wrote:
        ok now I have to ask was Tolkien planning on re wrighting the Hobbett in 1960? since my ricorded books version of the hobbett says that it was published in 1937 and then it was renewd in 1938 and again in 1966 and also in Humphrey Carpinder's byography of Tolkien J.R.R. Tolkien a byography it makes no menchen of a re right of the hobbett at least I don't think it does I will have to go back and check though. from Mich. 



        ----- Original Message -----
        <snip>
        It is, for instance, my impression that there are not many who would agree with me that it is a great pity that Tolkien abandoned his 1960 Hobbit - that he should have kept at it because it was a great improvement on his  story. I find that the attitude of the narrative voice in The Hobbit is occasionally overbearing or patronizing (where others see it as ironic), and I even find that is approaches the snide a couple of times. 

        But regardless of my own views on The Hobbit, I do find it is delightfully ironic that Peter Jackson is probably going to create a set of films that are closer in tone to what Tolkien wanted to achieve with his 1960 version than is any of the published editions of the book. Jackson will, judging both by the trailers so far and by anything else I've seen, try to target the same segment as he did with his adaptations of The Lord of the Rings, but while this target audience necessitated a drastic de-maturing of Tolkien's story, it will mean a maturing of the story of The Hobbit. . . . . 

      • Mich
        Hi yes it does help for sure. it does make me wonder though. having the unab books of the hobbit and lotr dun by recorded books and red by Rob inglis I wonder
        Message 3 of 6 , Nov 13, 2012
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          Hi yes it does help for sure. it does make me wonder though. having the unab books of the hobbit and lotr dun by recorded books and red by Rob inglis I wonder witch version of the books were used in the recording of these books. I also have the appendices of lotr on cd 16 of rotk. I don't remember though reading anything about  "THE QUEST OF EREBOR in any of those books. and the only timeI have first herd of this was in the trailers for the upcoming hobbit films dun by pj. I wonder do you know if any of these books you reference like the history of the hobbit are out in audio format? or any accessible format? from Mich. 
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 11:01 PM
          Subject: [mythsoc] Tolkien's 1960 Hobbit

           

          Hi Mich
             Here's a brief run down.
             Tolkien wrote THE HOBBIT between 1930 and 1932/33 (at least, that's our best guess). It was published in 1937.
             In about 1944/47 he re-wrote the Gollum chapter to better suit that character as he'd been developed in THE LORD OF THE RINGS. This revision was published as the "second edition" of THE HOBBIT in 1951.
             While finishing up LotR, he drafted "THE QUEST OF EREBOR", which wd have been part of Appendix A; it briefly retells the events of "An Unexpected Party" from Gandalf's point of view.
             In 1960, Tolkien decided to re-write the whole HOBBIT in the style of THE LORD OF THE RINGS, but abandoned the attempt when the party reached Rivendell. This fragment was published for the first time in my THE HISTORY OF THE HOBBIT in 2007.
             In 1965, Tolkien made a number of relatively small changes throughout THE HOBBIT; this was published as the "third edition".

             I hope this helps.
          --John R.   


          On Nov 12, 2012, at 1:13 PM, Mich wrote:
          ok now I have to ask was Tolkien planning on re wrighting the Hobbett in 1960? since my ricorded books version of the hobbett says that it was published in 1937 and then it was renewd in 1938 and again in 1966 and also in Humphrey Carpinder's byography of Tolkien J.R.R. Tolkien a byography it makes no menchen of a re right of the hobbett at least I don't think it does I will have to go back and check though. from Mich. 



          ----- Original Message -----
          <snip>
          It is, for instance, my impression that there are not many who would agree with me that it is a great pity that Tolkien abandoned his 1960 Hobbit - that he should have kept at it because it was a great improvement on his  story. I find that the attitude of the narrative voice in The Hobbit is occasionally overbearing or patronizing (where others see it as ironic), and I even find that is approaches the snide a couple of times. 

          But regardless of my own views on The Hobbit, I do find it is delightfully ironic that Peter Jackson is probably going to create a set of films that are closer in tone to what Tolkien wanted to achieve with his 1960 version than is any of the published editions of the book. Jackson will, judging both by the trailers so far and by anything else I've seen, try to target the same segment as he did with his adaptations of The Lord of the Rings, but while this target audience necessitated a drastic de-maturing of Tolkien's story, it will mean a maturing of the story of The Hobbit. . . . . 

        • Croft, Janet B.
          The Quest of Erebor was published as a chapter in _Unfinished Tales_. Janet Brennan Croft Editor of Mythlore http://www.mythsoc.org/mythlore.html Almost as
          Message 4 of 6 , Nov 13, 2012
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            “The Quest of Erebor” was published as a chapter in _Unfinished Tales_.

             

            Janet Brennan Croft

            Editor of Mythlore http://www.mythsoc.org/mythlore.html

            “Almost as entertaining as the guy with a tank full of scorpions. But not quite.” OKC Mensa, after I lectured on Tolkien and war.

             

            From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mich
            Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 9:49 AM
            To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien's 1960 Hobbit

             

             

            Hi yes it does help for sure. it does make me wonder though. having the unab books of the hobbit and lotr dun by recorded books and red by Rob inglis I wonder witch version of the books were used in the recording of these books. I also have the appendices of lotr on cd 16 of rotk. I don't remember though reading anything about  "THE QUEST OF EREBOR in any of those books. and the only timeI have first herd of this was in the trailers for the upcoming hobbit films dun by pj. I wonder do you know if any of these books you reference like the history of the hobbit are out in audio format? or any accessible format? from Mich. 

            ----- Original Message -----

            Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 11:01 PM

            Subject: [mythsoc] Tolkien's 1960 Hobbit

             

             

            Hi Mich

               Here's a brief run down.

               Tolkien wrote THE HOBBIT between 1930 and 1932/33 (at least, that's our best guess). It was published in 1937.

               In about 1944/47 he re-wrote the Gollum chapter to better suit that character as he'd been developed in THE LORD OF THE RINGS. This revision was published as the "second edition" of THE HOBBIT in 1951.

               While finishing up LotR, he drafted "THE QUEST OF EREBOR", which wd have been part of Appendix A; it briefly retells the events of "An Unexpected Party" from Gandalf's point of view.

               In 1960, Tolkien decided to re-write the whole HOBBIT in the style of THE LORD OF THE RINGS, but abandoned the attempt when the party reached Rivendell. This fragment was published for the first time in my THE HISTORY OF THE HOBBIT in 2007.

               In 1965, Tolkien made a number of relatively small changes throughout THE HOBBIT; this was published as the "third edition".

             

               I hope this helps.

            --John R.   

             

             

            On Nov 12, 2012, at 1:13 PM, Mich wrote:

            ok now I have to ask was Tolkien planning on re wrighting the Hobbett in 1960? since my ricorded books version of the hobbett says that it was published in 1937 and then it was renewd in 1938 and again in 1966 and also in Humphrey Carpinder's byography of Tolkien J.R.R. Tolkien a byography it makes no menchen of a re right of the hobbett at least I don't think it does I will have to go back and check though. from Mich. 

             

             



            ----- Original Message -----

            <snip>

            It is, for instance, my impression that there are not many who would agree with me that it is a great pity that Tolkien abandoned his 1960 Hobbit - that he should have kept at it because it was a great improvement on his  story. I find that the attitude of the narrative voice in The Hobbit is occasionally overbearing or patronizing (where others see it as ironic), and I even find that is approaches the snide a couple of times. 

             

            But regardless of my own views on The Hobbit, I do find it is delightfully ironic that Peter Jackson is probably going to create a set of films that are closer in tone to what Tolkien wanted to achieve with his 1960 version than is any of the published editions of the book. Jackson will, judging both by the trailers so far and by anything else I've seen, try to target the same segment as he did with his adaptations of The Lord of the Rings, but while this target audience necessitated a drastic de-maturing of Tolkien's story, it will mean a maturing of the story of The Hobbit. . . . . 

             

          • Doug Kane
            And a different version as an appendix to The Annotated Hobbit. From: Croft, Janet B. Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 8:14 AM To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
            Message 5 of 6 , Nov 13, 2012
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              And a different version as an appendix to The Annotated Hobbit.

              Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 8:14 AM
              Subject: RE: [mythsoc] Tolkien's 1960 Hobbit

               

              “The Quest of Erebor” was published as a chapter in _Unfinished Tales_.

              Janet Brennan Croft

              Editor of Mythlore http://www.mythsoc.org/mythlore.html

              “Almost as entertaining as the guy with a tank full of scorpions. But not quite.” OKC Mensa, after I lectured on Tolkien and war.

              From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mich
              Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 9:49 AM
              To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien's 1960 Hobbit

               

              Hi yes it does help for sure. it does make me wonder though. having the unab books of the hobbit and lotr dun by recorded books and red by Rob inglis I wonder witch version of the books were used in the recording of these books. I also have the appendices of lotr on cd 16 of rotk. I don't remember though reading anything about  "THE QUEST OF EREBOR in any of those books. and the only timeI have first herd of this was in the trailers for the upcoming hobbit films dun by pj. I wonder do you know if any of these books you reference like the history of the hobbit are out in audio format? or any accessible format? from Mich. 

              ----- Original Message -----

              Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 11:01 PM

              Subject: [mythsoc] Tolkien's 1960 Hobbit

               

              Hi Mich

                 Here's a brief run down.

                 Tolkien wrote THE HOBBIT between 1930 and 1932/33 (at least, that's our best guess). It was published in 1937.

                 In about 1944/47 he re-wrote the Gollum chapter to better suit that character as he'd been developed in THE LORD OF THE RINGS. This revision was published as the "second edition" of THE HOBBIT in 1951.

                 While finishing up LotR, he drafted "THE QUEST OF EREBOR", which wd have been part of Appendix A; it briefly retells the events of "An Unexpected Party" from Gandalf's point of view.

                 In 1960, Tolkien decided to re-write the whole HOBBIT in the style of THE LORD OF THE RINGS, but abandoned the attempt when the party reached Rivendell. This fragment was published for the first time in my THE HISTORY OF THE HOBBIT in 2007.

                 In 1965, Tolkien made a number of relatively small changes throughout THE HOBBIT; this was published as the "third edition".

                 I hope this helps.

              --John R.   

              On Nov 12, 2012, at 1:13 PM, Mich wrote:

              ok now I have to ask was Tolkien planning on re wrighting the Hobbett in 1960? since my ricorded books version of the hobbett says that it was published in 1937 and then it was renewd in 1938 and again in 1966 and also in Humphrey Carpinder's byography of Tolkien J.R.R. Tolkien a byography it makes no menchen of a re right of the hobbett at least I don't think it does I will have to go back and check though. from Mich. 



              ----- Original Message -----

              <snip>

              It is, for instance, my impression that there are not many who would agree with me that it is a great pity that Tolkien abandoned his 1960 Hobbit - that he should have kept at it because it was a great improvement on his  story. I find that the attitude of the narrative voice in The Hobbit is occasionally overbearing or patronizing (where others see it as ironic), and I even find that is approaches the snide a couple of times. 

              But regardless of my own views on The Hobbit, I do find it is delightfully ironic that Peter Jackson is probably going to create a set of films that are closer in tone to what Tolkien wanted to achieve with his 1960 version than is any of the published editions of the book. Jackson will, judging both by the trailers so far and by anything else I've seen, try to target the same segment as he did with his adaptations of The Lord of the Rings, but while this target audience necessitated a drastic de-maturing of Tolkien's story, it will mean a maturing of the story of The Hobbit. . . . . 

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            • John Rateliff
              Hi again. Others have partly answered this already, but just to confirm: the Rob Inglis recordings (which I ve always found too monotone for my taste) are of
              Message 6 of 6 , Nov 13, 2012
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                Hi again.
                   Others have partly answered this already, but just to confirm: the Rob Inglis recordings (which I've always found too monotone for my taste) are of the third (or possibly fourth) edition text of THE HOBBIT and the second edition of THE LORD OF THE RINGS. Both texts have since been changed in relatively minor ways that don't much affect just reading or listening to the story.  THE QUEST OF EREBOR has never appeared in any edition of THE LORD OF THE RINGS, having been cut by Tolkien himself before publication.* Instead, it was first published in UNFINISHED TALES. Another version (i.e., a different draft) appears as an appendix in the second edition of THE ANNOTATED HOBBIT. In addition, Christopher Tolkien gives a detailed account with some excerpts of how it was first drafted, and how it would have fit into LotR, in the twelfth and final volume of THE HISTORY OF MIDDLE-EARTH: THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH (HME.XII.282). I don't think any of these have audio versions, unfortunately.
                   Mind you, as I understand it the movie people don't have permissions to use any material from UNFINISHED TALES, and they certainly don't for HME, so their borrowings will have to be limited to what's in LotR and its Appendices.

                --John R.

                *rather like he cut the Epilogue of LotR, which you shd definitely track down if you haven't read it yet; it appears (in two different versions) in HME.IX.114ff



                On Nov 13, 2012, at 7:49 AM, Mich wrote:
                Hi yes it does help for sure. it does make me wonder though. having the unab books of the hobbit and lotr dun by recorded books and red by Rob inglis I wonder witch version of the books were used in the recording of these books. I also have the appendices of lotr on cd 16 of rotk. I don't remember though reading anything about  "THE QUEST OF EREBOR in any of those books. and the only timeI have first herd of this was in the trailers for the upcoming hobbit films dun by pj. I wonder do you know if any of these books you reference like the history of the hobbit are out in audio format? or any accessible format? from Mich. 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 11:01 PM
                Subject: [mythsoc] Tolkien's 1960 Hobbit


                Hi Mich
                   Here's a brief run down.
                   Tolkien wrote THE HOBBIT between 1930 and 1932/33 (at least, that's our best guess). It was published in 1937.
                   In about 1944/47 he re-wrote the Gollum chapter to better suit that character as he'd been developed in THE LORD OF THE RINGS. This revision was published as the "second edition" of THE HOBBIT in 1951.
                   While finishing up LotR, he drafted "THE QUEST OF EREBOR", which wd have been part of Appendix A; it briefly retells the events of "An Unexpected Party" from Gandalf's point of view.
                   In 1960, Tolkien decided to re-write the whole HOBBIT in the style of THE LORD OF THE RINGS, but abandoned the attempt when the party reached Rivendell. This fragment was published for the first time in my THE HISTORY OF THE HOBBIT in 2007.
                   In 1965, Tolkien made a number of relatively small changes throughout THE HOBBIT; this was published as the "third edition".

                   I hope this helps.
                _
                --John R.   

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