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Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

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  • David Bratman
    ... You had said fight crowds. I won t have to fight crowds. I ll just wait in line and read a book, which is what I d be doing at home if I weren t there
    Message 1 of 23 , Nov 12, 2012
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      "Doug Kane" <dougkane@...> wrote:

      >Even if you have a ticket, you are still going to have to wait on a long
      >line to get
      >in.

      You had said "fight crowds." I won't have to fight crowds. I'll just wait
      in line and read a book, which is what I'd be doing at home if I weren't
      there anyway. It would be a strange way to save time by waiting weeks,
      maybe, to get around to seeing the movie just to avoid having to stand in
      line for maybe an hour. Weeks are longer than an hour.

      >As for your having your first reaction influenced by others, I don't think
      >there is
      >much chance of that. You're a pretty strong-willed person by all accounts.

      What, you think I'm afraid that a favorable review would turn my head?
      There's a lot more to reactions and their influence on people than a simple
      yea-or-nay.

      >Besides, I'm pretty sure that you already know what your first reaction
      >will be:
      >horror, mixed with a fair amount of disgust, tinged by anger, and sadness
      >about
      >what could have been.

      And reactions to a movie are more than simply ranking it on a 1-to-10 scale.
      Even leaving aside Jackson's ability to do some things well and enjoyably,
      even from the point of view of complete prior antipathy there is always the
      question of exactly _how_ he will screw it up, and how badly.

      On both accounts, this isn't just a two-state process, on or off, up or
      down, yea or nay. I'm surprised at the attempt not to see that.


      From: David Bratman
      Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 6:21 PM
      To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming



      What makes you think I'd be able to avoid this movie by not seeing it?
      Should I retire from Tolkien fandom permanently, and hide out in a hermitage
      from the world for the next three years? That would be the only way to do
      so. Better I should see it as soon as possible, and not have my first
      reaction influenced by others'.

      As for fighting the crowds, I won't have to. I have a ticket already.



      -----Original Message-----
      From: Doug Kane
      Sent: Nov 9, 2012 5:52 PM
      To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming




      I'm a bit baffled at why you feel compelled to not only go see a film that
      you know with a doubt you will hate, but to even fight the inevitable huge
      crowds to do so when it first opens. But to each his own!


      From: David Bratman
      Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 5:28 PM
      To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [mythsoc] it's coming



      I feel like I've signed my own death certificate.

      I've just bought my ticket to the December 14th premiere of part one of
      the Hobbit movie. (Online at Fandango.)

      Weep with me.


      No virus found in this message.
      Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
      Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2441/5385 - Release Date: 11/09/12






      No virus found in this message.
      Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
      Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2441/5385 - Release Date: 11/09/12
    • James Curcio
      Can we rename this list the curmudgeons of fantasy ? ;P ... Can we rename this list the curmudgeons of fantasy ? ;P On Nov 9, 2012 11:50 PM, Mike Foster
      Message 2 of 23 , Nov 12, 2012
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        Can we rename this list "the curmudgeons of fantasy"? ;P

        On Nov 9, 2012 11:50 PM, "Mike Foster" <mafoster@...> wrote:
         

        You know you already hate it.
         
        But now you will have reasons.
         
        Far Westfarthing smial is re-reading The Hobbit for Nov. 30.  If we don’t get past the chapters with Radagast (how the Fudd did we miss those on our 40 years of previous readings?), there’s always next year.
         
        Mike
         
        Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 10:17 PM
        Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming
         
         

        -----Original Message-----
        >From: David Bratman <mailto:dbratman%40earthlink.net>
        >
        >I feel like I've signed my own death certificate.
        >
        >I've just bought my ticket to the December 14th premiere of part one of the Hobbit movie. (Online at Fandango.)
        >
        >Weep with me.
        >------------------------------------

        You can run, but you can't hide.

        emerdavid

      • Doug Kane
        Fair enough, David. I think I have read most of what you have written about the films, including your essay in Tolkien on Film, your brief comments about
        Message 3 of 23 , Nov 12, 2012
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          Fair enough, David.  I think I have read most of what you have written about the films, including your essay in Tolkien on Film, your brief comments about Howard Shore's score in Middle-earth Minstrel that got blown out of proportion in a review of that book, and the entertaining though sometimes acrimonious discussions on this list, much of which predate my time on it.  I actually agree with much of what I have seen that you have said, though my overall opinion of the films are undoubtedly higher than yours (which actually supports your main point that it isn't a two-state process).  I will say that I am confident that it is highly likely that I have followed the details about the new films more closely than you have, and that I am equally confident that it is quite likely that your reaction overall will be even more negative than it was to the LotR films (though I won't give details; what would be the fun of that?).  The one thing that I can say with complete confidence, however, is that I will find what you have say about the films interesting and worthwhile.
           
          Doug

          Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 1:58 AM
          Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

           

          "Doug Kane" <dougkane@...> wrote:

          >Even if you have a ticket, you are still going to have to wait
          on a long
          >line to get
          >in.

          You had said "fight crowds." I won't have to fight crowds. I'll just wait
          in line and read a book, which is what I'd be doing at home if I weren't
          there anyway. It would be a strange way to save time by waiting weeks,
          maybe, to get around to seeing the movie just to avoid having to stand in
          line for maybe an hour. Weeks are longer than an hour.

          >As for your having your first reaction influenced by
          others, I don't think
          >there is
          >much chance of that. You're a
          pretty strong-willed person by all accounts.

          What, you think I'm afraid that a favorable review would turn my head?
          There's a lot more to reactions and their influence on people than a simple
          yea-or-nay.

          >Besides,
          I'm pretty sure that you already know what your first reaction
          >will
          be:
          >horror, mixed with a fair amount of disgust, tinged by anger, and
          sadness
          >about
          >what could have been.

          And reactions to a movie are more than simply ranking it on a 1-to-10 scale.
          Even leaving aside Jackson's ability to do some things well and enjoyably,
          even from the point of view of complete prior antipathy there is always the
          question of exactly _how_ he will screw it up, and how badly.

          On both accounts, this isn't just a two-state process, on or off, up or
          down, yea or nay. I'm surprised at the attempt not to see that.

          From: David Bratman
          Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 6:21 PM
          To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

          What makes you think I'd be able to avoid this movie by not seeing it?
          Should I retire from Tolkien fandom permanently, and hide out in a hermitage
          from the world for the next three years? That would be the only way to do
          so. Better I should see it as soon as possible, and not have my first
          reaction influenced by others'.

          As for fighting the crowds, I won't have to. I have a ticket already.

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Doug Kane
          Sent: Nov 9, 2012 5:52 PM
          To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

          I'm a bit baffled at why you feel compelled to not only go see a film that
          you know with a doubt you will hate, but to even fight the inevitable huge
          crowds to do so when it first opens. But to each his own!

          From: David Bratman
          Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 5:28 PM
          To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [mythsoc] it's coming

          I feel like I've signed my own death certificate.

          I've just bought my ticket to the December 14th premiere of part one of
          the Hobbit movie. (Online at Fandango.)

          Weep with me.

          No virus found in this message.
          Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
          Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2441/5385 - Release Date: 11/09/12

          No virus found in this message.
          Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
          Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2441/5385 - Release Date: 11/09/12

          No virus found in this message.
          Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
          Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2441/5389 - Release Date: 11/11/12

        • Mich
          Hi all. as a new member to this list and as others have said I to wasn t on this list when the lotr films came out I would like to know where I would be able
          Message 4 of 23 , Nov 12, 2012
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            Hi all. as a new member to this list and as others have said I to wasn't on this list when the lotr films came out I would like to know where I would be able to read David's Rightings on the lotr films and on the scor and all the stuff that he wrote about the lotr films and also on his thoughts on the upcoming Hobbett films? from Mich.
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Doug Kane
            Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 10:22 AM
            Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

             

            Fair enough, David.  I think I have read most of what you have written about the films, including your essay in Tolkien on Film, your brief comments about Howard Shore's score in Middle-earth Minstrel that got blown out of proportion in a review of that book, and the entertaining though sometimes acrimonious discussions on this list, much of which predate my time on it.  I actually agree with much of what I have seen that you have said, though my overall opinion of the films are undoubtedly higher than yours (which actually supports your main point that it isn't a two-state process).  I will say that I am confident that it is highly likely that I have followed the details about the new films more closely than you have, and that I am equally confident that it is quite likely that your reaction overall will be even more negative than it was to the LotR films (though I won't give details; what would be the fun of that?).  The one thing that I can say with complete confidence, however, is that I will find what you have say about the films interesting and worthwhile.
             
            Doug

            Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 1:58 AM
            Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

             

            "Doug Kane" <dougkane@...> wrote:

            >Even if you have a ticket, you are still going to have to wait on a long
            >line to get
            >in.

            You had said "fight crowds." I won't have to fight crowds. I'll just wait
            in line and read a book, which is what I'd be doing at home if I weren't
            there anyway. It would be a strange way to save time by waiting weeks,
            maybe, to get around to seeing the movie just to avoid having to stand in
            line for maybe an hour. Weeks are longer than an hour.

            >As for your having your first reaction influenced by others, I don't think
            >there is
            >much chance of that. You're a pretty strong-willed person by all accounts.

            What, you think I'm afraid that a favorable review would turn my head?
            There's a lot more to reactions and their influence on people than a simple
            yea-or-nay.

            >Besides, I'm pretty sure that you already know what your first reaction
            >will be:
            >horror, mixed with a fair amount of disgust, tinged by anger, and sadness
            >about
            >what could have been.

            And reactions to a movie are more than simply ranking it on a 1-to-10 scale.
            Even leaving aside Jackson's ability to do some things well and enjoyably,
            even from the point of view of complete prior antipathy there is always the
            question of exactly _how_ he will screw it up, and how badly.

            On both accounts, this isn't just a two-state process, on or off, up or
            down, yea or nay. I'm surprised at the attempt not to see that.

            From: David Bratman
            Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 6:21 PM
            To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

            What makes you think I'd be able to avoid this movie by not seeing it?
            Should I retire from Tolkien fandom permanently, and hide out in a hermitage
            from the world for the next three years? That would be the only way to do
            so. Better I should see it as soon as possible, and not have my first
            reaction influenced by others'.

            As for fighting the crowds, I won't have to. I have a ticket already.

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Doug Kane
            Sent: Nov 9, 2012 5:52 PM
            To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

            I'm a bit baffled at why you feel compelled to not only go see a film that
            you know with a doubt you will hate, but to even fight the inevitable huge
            crowds to do so when it first opens. But to each his own!

            From: David Bratman
            Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 5:28 PM
            To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [mythsoc] it's coming

            I feel like I've signed my own death certificate.

            I've just bought my ticket to the December 14th premiere of part one of
            the Hobbit movie. (Online at Fandango.)

            Weep with me.

            No virus found in this message.
            Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
            Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2441/5385 - Release Date: 11/09/12

            No virus found in this message.
            Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
            Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2441/5385 - Release Date: 11/09/12

            No virus found in this message.
            Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
            Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2441/5389 - Release Date: 11/11/12

          • Croft, Janet B.
            David’s essay “Summa Jacksonica: A Reply to Defenses of Peter Jackson’s Lord of the Rings films, after St. Thomas Aquinas” and a number of other
            Message 5 of 23 , Nov 12, 2012
            • 0 Attachment

              David’s essay “Summa Jacksonica: A Reply to Defenses of Peter Jackson’s Lord of the Rings films, after St. Thomas Aquinas” and a number of other articles are available in the Mythopoeic Press’s book Tolkien on Film:

               

              http://www.mythsoc.org/press/tolkien-on-film/

               

               

              Janet Brennan Croft

              Associate Professor
              Head of Access Services
              University of Oklahoma Libraries
              Bizzell 106NW
              Norman OK 73019
              405-325-1918
              Fax 405-325-7618
              jbcroft@...
              http://ou.academia.edu/JanetCroft

              http://libraries.ou.edu/
              Editor of Mythlore
              http://www.mythsoc.org/mythlore.html

              Book Review Editor of Oklahoma Librarian http://www.oklibs.org/oklibrarian/current/index.html

              “Almost as entertaining as the guy with a tank full of scorpions. But not quite.” OKC Mensa, after I lectured on Tolkien and war.

               

              From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mich
              Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 11:39 AM
              To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

               

               

              

              Hi all. as a new member to this list and as others have said I to wasn't on this list when the lotr films came out I would like to know where I would be able to read David's Rightings on the lotr films and on the scor and all the stuff that he wrote about the lotr films and also on his thoughts on the upcoming Hobbett films? from Mich.

              ----- Original Message -----

              Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 10:22 AM

              Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

               

               

              Fair enough, David.  I think I have read most of what you have written about the films, including your essay in Tolkien on Film, your brief comments about Howard Shore's score in Middle-earth Minstrel that got blown out of proportion in a review of that book, and the entertaining though sometimes acrimonious discussions on this list, much of which predate my time on it.  I actually agree with much of what I have seen that you have said, though my overall opinion of the films are undoubtedly higher than yours (which actually supports your main point that it isn't a two-state process).  I will say that I am confident that it is highly likely that I have followed the details about the new films more closely than you have, and that I am equally confident that it is quite likely that your reaction overall will be even more negative than it was to the LotR films (though I won't give details; what would be the fun of that?).  The one thing that I can say with complete confidence, however, is that I will find what you have say about the films interesting and worthwhile.

               

              Doug

               

              Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 1:58 AM

              Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

               

               

              "Doug Kane" <dougkane@...> wrote:

              >Even if you have a ticket, you are still going to have to wait on a long
              >line to get
              >in.

              You had said "fight crowds." I won't have to fight crowds. I'll just wait
              in line and read a book, which is what I'd be doing at home if I weren't
              there anyway. It would be a strange way to save time by waiting weeks,
              maybe, to get around to seeing the movie just to avoid having to stand in
              line for maybe an hour. Weeks are longer than an hour.

              >As for your having your first reaction influenced by others, I don't think
              >there is
              >much chance of that. You're a pretty strong-willed person by all accounts.

              What, you think I'm afraid that a favorable review would turn my head?
              There's a lot more to reactions and their influence on people than a simple
              yea-or-nay.

              >Besides, I'm pretty sure that you already know what your first reaction
              >will be:
              >horror, mixed with a fair amount of disgust, tinged by anger, and sadness
              >about
              >what could have been.

              And reactions to a movie are more than simply ranking it on a 1-to-10 scale.
              Even leaving aside Jackson's ability to do some things well and enjoyably,
              even from the point of view of complete prior antipathy there is always the
              question of exactly _how_ he will screw it up, and how badly.

              On both accounts, this isn't just a two-state process, on or off, up or
              down, yea or nay. I'm surprised at the attempt not to see that.

              From: David Bratman
              Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 6:21 PM
              To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

              What makes you think I'd be able to avoid this movie by not seeing it?
              Should I retire from Tolkien fandom permanently, and hide out in a hermitage
              from the world for the next three years? That would be the only way to do
              so. Better I should see it as soon as possible, and not have my first
              reaction influenced by others'.

              As for fighting the crowds, I won't have to. I have a ticket already.

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Doug Kane
              Sent: Nov 9, 2012 5:52 PM
              To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

              I'm a bit baffled at why you feel compelled to not only go see a film that
              you know with a doubt you will hate, but to even fight the inevitable huge
              crowds to do so when it first opens. But to each his own!

              From: David Bratman
              Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 5:28 PM
              To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [mythsoc] it's coming

              I feel like I've signed my own death certificate.

              I've just bought my ticket to the December 14th premiere of part one of
              the Hobbit movie. (Online at Fandango.)

              Weep with me.

              No virus found in this message.
              Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
              Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2441/5385 - Release Date: 11/09/12

              No virus found in this message.
              Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
              Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2441/5385 - Release Date: 11/09/12

              No virus found in this message.
              Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
              Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2441/5389 - Release Date: 11/11/12

            • Doug Kane
              Which (as Janet is no doubt too modest to point out), is edited by her, and contains her own fine essay Mithril Coats and Tin Ears: ‘Anticipation’ and
              Message 6 of 23 , Nov 12, 2012
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                Which (as Janet is no doubt too modest to point out), is edited by her, and contains her own fine essay "Mithril Coats and Tin Ears: ‘Anticipation’ and ‘Flattening’ in Peter Jackson’s The Lord of the Rings Trilogy." 
                 
                The other essay that I referred to is "Liquid Tolkien: Music, Tolkien, Middle-earth, and More Music" in Middle-earth Minstrel: Essays on Music in Tolkien. Edited by Bradford Lee Eden. Jefferson, N.C.: McFarland, 2010. 140-170.  Although the comments about the score are a very brief portion in an essay about Tolkien-inspired music.
                 
                As for comments made here on this list, there is a searchable archive if someone is intrepid enough to search through it for old discussions about the films.
                 
                Doug

                Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 9:49 AM
                Subject: RE: [mythsoc] it's coming

                 

                David’s essay “Summa Jacksonica: A Reply to Defenses of Peter Jackson’s Lord of the Rings films, after St. Thomas Aquinas” and a number of other articles are available in the Mythopoeic Press’s book Tolkien on Film:

                http://www.mythsoc.org/press/tolkien-on-film/

                Janet Brennan Croft

                Associate Professor
                Head of Access Services
                University of Oklahoma Libraries
                Bizzell 106NW
                Norman OK 73019
                405-325-1918
                Fax 405-325-7618
                jbcroft@...
                http://ou.academia.edu/JanetCroft

                http://libraries.ou.edu/
                Editor of Mythlore
                http://www.mythsoc.org/mythlore.html

                Book Review Editor of Oklahoma Librarian http://www.oklibs.org/oklibrarian/current/index.html

                “Almost as entertaining as the guy with a tank full of scorpions. But not quite.” OKC Mensa, after I lectured on Tolkien and war.

                From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mich
                Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 11:39 AM
                To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

                 

                

                Hi all. as a new member to this list and as others have said I to wasn't on this list when the lotr films came out I would like to know where I would be able to read David's Rightings on the lotr films and on the scor and all the stuff that he wrote about the lotr films and also on his thoughts on the upcoming Hobbett films? from Mich.

                ----- Original Message -----

                From: Doug Kane

                Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 10:22 AM

                Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

                 

                Fair enough, David.  I think I have read most of what you have written about the films, including your essay in Tolkien on Film, your brief comments about Howard Shore's score in Middle-earth Minstrel that got blown out of proportion in a review of that book, and the entertaining though sometimes acrimonious discussions on this list, much of which predate my time on it.  I actually agree with much of what I have seen that you have said, though my overall opinion of the films are undoubtedly higher than yours (which actually supports your main point that it isn't a two-state process).  I will say that I am confident that it is highly likely that I have followed the details about the new films more closely than you have, and that I am equally confident that it is quite likely that your reaction overall will be even more negative than it was to the LotR films (though I won't give details; what would be the fun of that?).  The one thing that I can say with complete confidence, however, is that I will find what you have say about the films interesting and worthwhile.

                Doug

                Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 1:58 AM

                Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

                 

                "Doug Kane" <dougkane@...> wrote:

                >Even if you have a ticket, you are still going to have to wait on a long
                >line to get
                >in.

                You had said "fight crowds." I won't have to fight crowds. I'll just wait
                in line and read a book, which is what I'd be doing at home if I weren't
                there anyway. It would be a strange way to save time by waiting weeks,
                maybe, to get around to seeing the movie just to avoid having to stand in
                line for maybe an hour. Weeks are longer than an hour.

                >As for your having your first reaction influenced by others, I don't think
                >there is
                >much chance of that. You're a pretty strong-willed person by all accounts.

                What, you think I'm afraid that a favorable review would turn my head?
                There's a lot more to reactions and their influence on people than a simple
                yea-or-nay.

                >Besides, I'm pretty sure that you already know what your first reaction
                >will be:
                >horror, mixed with a fair amount of disgust, tinged by anger, and sadness
                >about
                >what could have been.

                And reactions to a movie are more than simply ranking it on a 1-to-10 scale.
                Even leaving aside Jackson's ability to do some things well and enjoyably,
                even from the point of view of complete prior antipathy there is always the
                question of exactly _how_ he will screw it up, and how badly.

                On both accounts, this isn't just a two-state process, on or off, up or
                down, yea or nay. I'm surprised at the attempt not to see that.

                From: David Bratman
                Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 6:21 PM
                To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

                What makes you think I'd be able to avoid this movie by not seeing it?
                Should I retire from Tolkien fandom permanently, and hide out in a hermitage
                from the world for the next three years? That would be the only way to do
                so. Better I should see it as soon as possible, and not have my first
                reaction influenced by others'.

                As for fighting the crowds, I won't have to. I have a ticket already.

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Doug Kane
                Sent: Nov 9, 2012 5:52 PM
                To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

                I'm a bit baffled at why you feel compelled to not only go see a film that
                you know with a doubt you will hate, but to even fight the inevitable huge
                crowds to do so when it first opens. But to each his own!

                From: David Bratman
                Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 5:28 PM
                To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [mythsoc] it's coming

                I feel like I've signed my own death certificate.

                I've just bought my ticket to the December 14th premiere of part one of
                the Hobbit movie. (Online at Fandango.)

                Weep with me.

                No virus found in this message.
                Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2441/5385 - Release Date: 11/09/12

                No virus found in this message.
                Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2441/5385 - Release Date: 11/09/12

                No virus found in this message.
                Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2441/5389 - Release Date: 11/11/12

                No virus found in this message.
                Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2441/5390 - Release Date: 11/12/12

              • David Bratman
                ... From: Doug Kane To: Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 7:22 AM Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it s coming
                Message 7 of 23 , Nov 12, 2012
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                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Doug Kane" <dougkane@...>
                  To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 7:22 AM
                  Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming


                  Fair enough, David. I think I have read most of what you have written about
                  the films, including your essay in Tolkien on Film, your brief comments
                  about Howard Shore's score in Middle-earth Minstrel that got blown out of
                  proportion in a review of that book, and the entertaining though sometimes
                  acrimonious discussions on this list, much of which predate my time on it.
                  I actually agree with much of what I have seen that you have said, though my
                  overall opinion of the films are undoubtedly higher than yours (which
                  actually supports your main point that it isn't a two-state process). I
                  will say that I am confident that it is highly likely that I have followed
                  the details about the new films more closely than you have, and that I am
                  equally confident that it is quite likely that your reaction overall will be
                  even more negative than it was to the LotR films (though I won't give
                  details; what would be the fun of that?). The one thing that I can say with
                  complete confidence, however, is that I will find what you have say about
                  the films interesting and worthwhile.

                  Doug


                  From: David Bratman
                  Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 1:58 AM
                  To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming



                  "Doug Kane" <dougkane@...> wrote:

                  >Even if you have a ticket, you are still going to have to wait on a long
                  >line to get
                  >in.

                  You had said "fight crowds." I won't have to fight crowds. I'll just wait
                  in line and read a book, which is what I'd be doing at home if I weren't
                  there anyway. It would be a strange way to save time by waiting weeks,
                  maybe, to get around to seeing the movie just to avoid having to stand in
                  line for maybe an hour. Weeks are longer than an hour.

                  >As for your having your first reaction influenced by others, I don't think
                  >there is
                  >much chance of that. You're a pretty strong-willed person by all accounts.

                  What, you think I'm afraid that a favorable review would turn my head?
                  There's a lot more to reactions and their influence on people than a simple
                  yea-or-nay.

                  >Besides, I'm pretty sure that you already know what your first reaction
                  >will be:
                  >horror, mixed with a fair amount of disgust, tinged by anger, and sadness
                  >about
                  >what could have been.

                  And reactions to a movie are more than simply ranking it on a 1-to-10 scale.
                  Even leaving aside Jackson's ability to do some things well and enjoyably,
                  even from the point of view of complete prior antipathy there is always the
                  question of exactly _how_ he will screw it up, and how badly.

                  On both accounts, this isn't just a two-state process, on or off, up or
                  down, yea or nay. I'm surprised at the attempt not to see that.

                  From: David Bratman
                  Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 6:21 PM
                  To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

                  What makes you think I'd be able to avoid this movie by not seeing it?
                  Should I retire from Tolkien fandom permanently, and hide out in a hermitage
                  from the world for the next three years? That would be the only way to do
                  so. Better I should see it as soon as possible, and not have my first
                  reaction influenced by others'.

                  As for fighting the crowds, I won't have to. I have a ticket already.

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Doug Kane
                  Sent: Nov 9, 2012 5:52 PM
                  To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

                  I'm a bit baffled at why you feel compelled to not only go see a film that
                  you know with a doubt you will hate, but to even fight the inevitable huge
                  crowds to do so when it first opens. But to each his own!

                  From: David Bratman
                  Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 5:28 PM
                  To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [mythsoc] it's coming

                  I feel like I've signed my own death certificate.

                  I've just bought my ticket to the December 14th premiere of part one of
                  the Hobbit movie. (Online at Fandango.)

                  Weep with me.

                  No virus found in this message.
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                  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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                • Croft, Janet B.
                  Why thank you! I was just talking to my daughter about how Jackson is likely to “anticipate” things in The Hobbit movies, based on the trailers, ratcheting
                  Message 8 of 23 , Nov 12, 2012
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                    Why thank you!

                     

                    I was just talking to my daughter about how Jackson is likely to “anticipate” things in The Hobbit movies, based on the trailers, ratcheting up the violence/horror factors early on and leaving nothing to build up to. If Bilbo is involved in a sword fight with a goblin under the Misty Mountains, as he appears to be, it makes the bravery of drawing a sword on the spiders later a bit anticlimactic.

                     

                    Janet

                     

                    From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Doug Kane
                    Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 12:24 PM
                    To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

                     

                     

                    Which (as Janet is no doubt too modest to point out), is edited by her, and contains her own fine essay "Mithril Coats and Tin Ears: ‘Anticipation’ and ‘Flattening’ in Peter Jackson’s The Lord of the Rings Trilogy." 

                     

                    The other essay that I referred to is "Liquid Tolkien: Music, Tolkien, Middle-earth, and More Music" in Middle-earth Minstrel: Essays on Music in Tolkien. Edited by Bradford Lee Eden. Jefferson, N.C.: McFarland, 2010. 140-170.  Although the comments about the score are a very brief portion in an essay about Tolkien-inspired music.

                     

                    As for comments made here on this list, there is a searchable archive if someone is intrepid enough to search through it for old discussions about the films.

                     

                    Doug

                     

                    Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 9:49 AM

                    Subject: RE: [mythsoc] it's coming

                     

                     

                    David’s essay “Summa Jacksonica: A Reply to Defenses of Peter Jackson’s Lord of the Rings films, after St. Thomas Aquinas” and a number of other articles are available in the Mythopoeic Press’s book Tolkien on Film:

                    http://www.mythsoc.org/press/tolkien-on-film/

                    Janet Brennan Croft

                    Associate Professor
                    Head of Access Services
                    University of Oklahoma Libraries
                    Bizzell 106NW
                    Norman OK 73019
                    405-325-1918
                    Fax 405-325-7618
                    jbcroft@...
                    http://ou.academia.edu/JanetCroft

                    http://libraries.ou.edu/
                    Editor of Mythlore
                    http://www.mythsoc.org/mythlore.html

                    Book Review Editor of Oklahoma Librarian http://www.oklibs.org/oklibrarian/current/index.html

                    “Almost as entertaining as the guy with a tank full of scorpions. But not quite.” OKC Mensa, after I lectured on Tolkien and war.

                    From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mich
                    Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 11:39 AM
                    To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

                     

                    

                    Hi all. as a new member to this list and as others have said I to wasn't on this list when the lotr films came out I would like to know where I would be able to read David's Rightings on the lotr films and on the scor and all the stuff that he wrote about the lotr films and also on his thoughts on the upcoming Hobbett films? from Mich.

                    ----- Original Message -----

                    From: Doug Kane

                    Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 10:22 AM

                    Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

                     

                    Fair enough, David.  I think I have read most of what you have written about the films, including your essay in Tolkien on Film, your brief comments about Howard Shore's score in Middle-earth Minstrel that got blown out of proportion in a review of that book, and the entertaining though sometimes acrimonious discussions on this list, much of which predate my time on it.  I actually agree with much of what I have seen that you have said, though my overall opinion of the films are undoubtedly higher than yours (which actually supports your main point that it isn't a two-state process).  I will say that I am confident that it is highly likely that I have followed the details about the new films more closely than you have, and that I am equally confident that it is quite likely that your reaction overall will be even more negative than it was to the LotR films (though I won't give details; what would be the fun of that?).  The one thing that I can say with complete confidence, however, is that I will find what you have say about the films interesting and worthwhile.

                    Doug

                    Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 1:58 AM

                    Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

                     

                    "Doug Kane" <dougkane@...> wrote:

                    >Even if you have a ticket, you are still going to have to wait on a long
                    >line to get
                    >in.

                    You had said "fight crowds." I won't have to fight crowds. I'll just wait
                    in line and read a book, which is what I'd be doing at home if I weren't
                    there anyway. It would be a strange way to save time by waiting weeks,
                    maybe, to get around to seeing the movie just to avoid having to stand in
                    line for maybe an hour. Weeks are longer than an hour.

                    >As for your having your first reaction influenced by others, I don't think
                    >there is
                    >much chance of that. You're a pretty strong-willed person by all accounts.

                    What, you think I'm afraid that a favorable review would turn my head?
                    There's a lot more to reactions and their influence on people than a simple
                    yea-or-nay.

                    >Besides, I'm pretty sure that you already know what your first reaction
                    >will be:
                    >horror, mixed with a fair amount of disgust, tinged by anger, and sadness
                    >about
                    >what could have been.

                    And reactions to a movie are more than simply ranking it on a 1-to-10 scale.
                    Even leaving aside Jackson's ability to do some things well and enjoyably,
                    even from the point of view of complete prior antipathy there is always the
                    question of exactly _how_ he will screw it up, and how badly.

                    On both accounts, this isn't just a two-state process, on or off, up or
                    down, yea or nay. I'm surprised at the attempt not to see that.

                    From: David Bratman
                    Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 6:21 PM
                    To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

                    What makes you think I'd be able to avoid this movie by not seeing it?
                    Should I retire from Tolkien fandom permanently, and hide out in a hermitage
                    from the world for the next three years? That would be the only way to do
                    so. Better I should see it as soon as possible, and not have my first
                    reaction influenced by others'.

                    As for fighting the crowds, I won't have to. I have a ticket already.

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Doug Kane
                    Sent: Nov 9, 2012 5:52 PM
                    To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

                    I'm a bit baffled at why you feel compelled to not only go see a film that
                    you know with a doubt you will hate, but to even fight the inevitable huge
                    crowds to do so when it first opens. But to each his own!

                    From: David Bratman
                    Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 5:28 PM
                    To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [mythsoc] it's coming

                    I feel like I've signed my own death certificate.

                    I've just bought my ticket to the December 14th premiere of part one of
                    the Hobbit movie. (Online at Fandango.)

                    Weep with me.

                    No virus found in this message.
                    Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                    Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2441/5385 - Release Date: 11/09/12

                    No virus found in this message.
                    Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                    Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2441/5385 - Release Date: 11/09/12

                    No virus found in this message.
                    Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                    Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2441/5389 - Release Date: 11/11/12

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                    Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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                  • David Bratman
                    ... They did. Some people have a very protective attitude towards old Howard. At a much earlier date on some list, possibly here, I first expressed my opinion
                    Message 9 of 23 , Nov 12, 2012
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                      "Doug Kane" <dougkane@...> wrote:

                      >Fair enough, David. I think I have read most of what you have written
                      >about
                      >the films, including your essay in Tolkien on Film, your brief comments
                      >about Howard Shore's score in Middle-earth Minstrel that got blown out of
                      >proportion in a review of that book

                      They did. Some people have a very protective attitude towards old Howard.
                      At a much earlier date on some list, possibly here, I first expressed my
                      opinion that his music was competent hackwork, no more than that, and
                      someone reacted with incredulity that my prejudice against Jackson was so
                      overwhelming that I even took it out on the innocent music. Actually, I'm
                      better-qualified to review classical and pseudo-classical music than I am to
                      review movies: I actually have a job doing it.

                      >I will say that I am confident that it is highly likely that I have
                      >followed
                      >the details about the new films more closely than you have, and that I am
                      >equally confident that it is quite likely that your reaction overall will
                      >be
                      >even more negative than it was to the LotR films (though I won't give
                      >details; what would be the fun of that?).

                      In that case, I thank you for not revealing the details. As I said, that's
                      why I'm going on the first day, to get the most untrammeled reaction that I
                      can.


                      >The one thing that I can say with
                      >complete confidence, however, is that I will find what you have say about
                      >the films interesting and worthwhile.

                      Well, thank you. Every once in a while a novel or movie comes along that's
                      so bad that one reads or sits through it for the sheer pleasure of taking it
                      apart afterwards. I hold out hope that The Hobbit will not be that movie.
                    • David Emerson
                      ... My sentiments exactly! I m looking forward to my fellow David s comments more than to the film itself. David Emerson
                      Message 10 of 23 , Nov 13, 2012
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                        >From: "Doug Kane" <dougkane@...>
                        >
                        >...The one thing that I can say with
                        >complete confidence, however, is that I will find what you [D. Bratman] have say about
                        >the films interesting and worthwhile.

                        My sentiments exactly! I'm looking forward to my fellow David's comments more than to the film itself.


                        David Emerson
                      • Mich
                        I agree I am looking forwerd to people s comments about the film for shure. of korceI will have commentsof myoan as well. from Mich. ... From: David Emerson
                        Message 11 of 23 , Nov 13, 2012
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                          I agree I am looking forwerd to people's comments about the film for shure. of korceI will have commentsof myoan as well. from Mich. 
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 12:00 PM
                          Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

                           

                          >From: "Doug Kane" <dougkane@...>
                          >
                          >...The one thing that I can say with
                          >complete confidence, however, is that I will find what you [D. Bratman] have say about
                          >the films interesting and worthwhile.

                          My sentiments exactly! I'm looking forward to my fellow David's comments more than to the film itself.

                          David Emerson

                        • John Rateliff
                          ... Which reminds me: for those looking forward to Shore s soundtrack, the cd goes on sale December 11th, three days before the movie comes out. Those who want
                          Message 12 of 23 , Nov 13, 2012
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                            On Nov 12, 2012, at 11:26 AM, David Bratman wrote:

                            . . .    Some people have a very protective attitude towards old Howard.
                            At a much earlier date on some list, possibly here, I first expressed my
                            opinion that his music was competent hackwork, no more than that, and
                            someone reacted with incredulity that my prejudice against Jackson was so
                            overwhelming that I even took it out on the innocent music.  Actually, I'm
                            better-qualified to review classical and pseudo-classical music than I am to
                            review movies: I actually have a job doing it.


                            Which reminds me: for those looking forward to Shore's soundtrack, the cd goes on sale December 11th, three days before the movie comes out.


                            Those who want to avoid spoilers shd not look at the list of track titles, though, since they give clues as to which scenes from the original will be included (and also what some of the interpolated scenes must be).

                            --John R.
                          • Doug Kane
                            For those who can t wait that long, it is available for listening at: http://www.empireonline.com/news/story.asp?NID=35757 Doug From: John Rateliff Sent:
                            Message 13 of 23 , Nov 13, 2012
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                              For those who can't wait that long, it is available for listening at:  http://www.empireonline.com/news/story.asp?NID=35757
                               
                              Doug

                              Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 9:57 AM
                              Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming (the music)

                               


                              On Nov 12, 2012, at 11:26 AM, David Bratman wrote:

                              . . .    Some people have a very protective attitude towards old Howard.
                              At a much earlier date on some list, possibly here, I first expressed my
                              opinion that his music was competent hackwork, no more than that, and
                              someone reacted with incredulity that my prejudice against Jackson was so
                              overwhelming that I even took it out on the innocent music.  Actually, I'm
                              better-qualified to review classical and pseudo-classical music than I am to
                              review movies: I actually have a job doing it.


                              Which reminds me: for those looking forward to Shore's soundtrack, the cd goes on sale December 11th, three days before the movie comes out.


                              Those who want to avoid spoilers shd not look at the list of track titles, though, since they give clues as to which scenes from the original will be included (and also what some of the interpolated scenes must be).

                              --John R.


                              No virus found in this message.
                              Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                              Version: 10.0.1427 / Virus Database: 2441/5392 - Release Date: 11/13/12

                            • Jason Fisher
                              Thanks for sharing this, Doug. ... it is available for listening at:  http://www.empireonline.com/news/story.asp?NID=35757 ... much earlier date on some list,
                              Message 14 of 23 , Nov 13, 2012
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                                Thanks for sharing this, Doug.


                                From: Doug Kane <dougkane@...>
                                To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 11:17 AM
                                Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming (the music)

                                 
                                For those who can't wait that long, it is available for listening at:  http://www.empireonline.com/news/story.asp?NID=35757
                                 
                                Doug

                                Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 9:57 AM
                                Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming (the music)

                                 

                                On Nov 12, 2012, at 11:26 AM, David Bratman wrote:

                                . . .    Some people have a very protective attitude towards old Howard.
                                At a much earlier date on some list, possibly here, I first expressed my
                                opinion that his music was competent hackwork, no more than that, and
                                someone reacted with incredulity that my prejudice against Jackson was so
                                overwhelming that I even took it out on the innocent music.  Actually, I'm
                                better-qualified to review classical and pseudo-classical music than I am to
                                review movies: I actually have a job doing it.


                                Which reminds me: for those looking forward to Shore's soundtrack, the cd goes on sale December 11th, three days before the movie comes out.


                                Those who want to avoid spoilers shd not look at the list of track titles, though, since they give clues as to which scenes from the original will be included (and also what some of the interpolated scenes must be).

                                --John R.

                                No virus found in this message.
                                Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                Version: 10.0.1427 / Virus Database: 2441/5392 - Release Date: 11/13/12


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