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Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

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  • Linda DeMars
    Sometime I ll be seeing it. I was going to go with a diverse group of Tolkien friends---but I think going at Midnight is sort of late since I have a busy
    Message 1 of 23 , Nov 9, 2012
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      Sometime I'll be seeing it.
      I was going to go with a diverse group of Tolkien friends---but I think going at Midnight is sort of late since I have a busy weekend ahead.  Oh  dear, am I getting old?

      Linda

      On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 8:28 PM, David Bratman <dbratman@...> wrote:
       

      I feel like I've signed my own death certificate.

      I've just bought my ticket to the December 14th premiere of part one of the Hobbit movie. (Online at Fandango.)

      Weep with me.


    • Doug Kane
      Even if you have a ticket, you are still going to have to wait on a long line to get in. As for your having your first reaction influenced by others, I don t
      Message 2 of 23 , Nov 10, 2012
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        Even if you have a ticket, you are still going to have to wait on a long line to get in. 
         
        As for your having your first reaction influenced by others, I don't think there is much chance of that.  You're a pretty strong-willed person by all accounts.  Besides, I'm pretty sure that you already know what your first reaction will be:  horror, mixed with a fair amount of disgust, tinged by anger, and sadness about what could have been.

        Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 6:21 PM
        Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

         

        What makes you think I'd be able to avoid this movie by not seeing it?  Should I retire from Tolkien fandom permanently, and hide out in a hermitage from the world for the next three years?  That would be the only way to do so.  Better I should see it as soon as possible, and not have my first reaction influenced by others'.

        As for fighting the crowds, I won't have to.  I have a ticket already.

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Doug Kane
        Sent: Nov 9, 2012 5:52 PM
        To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming



        I'm a bit baffled at why you feel compelled to not only go see a film that you know with a doubt you will hate, but to even fight the inevitable huge crowds to do so when it first opens.  But to each his own!

        Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 5:28 PM
        Subject: [mythsoc] it's coming

         

        I feel like I've signed my own death certificate.

        I've just bought my ticket to the December 14th premiere of part one of the Hobbit movie. (Online at Fandango.)

        Weep with me.

        No virus found in this message.
        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
        Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2441/5385 - Release Date: 11/09/12



        No virus found in this message.
        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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      • R.J. Anderson
        There is indeed hope for the next generation as long as parents read to their children (and/or their children are good readers on their own). I made sure to
        Message 3 of 23 , Nov 10, 2012
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          There is indeed hope for the next generation as long as parents read to their children (and/or their children are good readers on their own).

          I made sure to read THE HOBBIT and LotR aloud to my sons (aged 10 and 7) before I would let them see any of the movies. I managed to get the jump on VOYAGE OF THE DAWN TREADER as well (a movie I still refuse to see, based on even the positive reviews giving me the creeping horrors -- but my oldest son said he liked the sea serpent). 

          Unfortunately I was unable to get ahead of them on PRINCE CASPIAN (which we are reading together now) or THE LION, THE WITCH AND THE WARDROBE -- though the latter was the one movie in the entire set of Narnia and LotR films that I enjoyed and thought was mostly done right, so I didn't feel quite so bad about that.

          Anyway, in spite of my feeling that the LotR films looked pretty but the dialogue and characterization was horrible (and in several cases the casting as well -- Hugo Weaving as Perpetually!Grumpy!Elrond, no thanks), I am still looking forward to THE HOBBIT, which I guess makes me an optimist. At least now I know that my kids will spot the parts that were Definitely Not In The Book and the parts where The Book Was So Much Better, and we can talk about them afterward (as we did with the LotR films). Also, I think Martin Freeman will make a splendid Bilbo, if nothing else, and I have no objection to good-looking dwarves even if they are (the good-looking ones, anyway) all doomed to die in the end.*
          --
          Rebecca

          * Though if Jackson et al have decided to spare Kili so he can make eyes at some cute non-bearded female dwarf just before the closing credits, you will be able to hear my howl of outrage from a thousand leagues away.

          --
          Forget everything you think you know about faeries... 

          KNIFE (2009) | REBEL (2010) | ARROW (2011)
          SWIFT (March 2012)
          by R.J. Anderson
        • David Bratman
          ... You had said fight crowds. I won t have to fight crowds. I ll just wait in line and read a book, which is what I d be doing at home if I weren t there
          Message 4 of 23 , Nov 12, 2012
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            "Doug Kane" <dougkane@...> wrote:

            >Even if you have a ticket, you are still going to have to wait on a long
            >line to get
            >in.

            You had said "fight crowds." I won't have to fight crowds. I'll just wait
            in line and read a book, which is what I'd be doing at home if I weren't
            there anyway. It would be a strange way to save time by waiting weeks,
            maybe, to get around to seeing the movie just to avoid having to stand in
            line for maybe an hour. Weeks are longer than an hour.

            >As for your having your first reaction influenced by others, I don't think
            >there is
            >much chance of that. You're a pretty strong-willed person by all accounts.

            What, you think I'm afraid that a favorable review would turn my head?
            There's a lot more to reactions and their influence on people than a simple
            yea-or-nay.

            >Besides, I'm pretty sure that you already know what your first reaction
            >will be:
            >horror, mixed with a fair amount of disgust, tinged by anger, and sadness
            >about
            >what could have been.

            And reactions to a movie are more than simply ranking it on a 1-to-10 scale.
            Even leaving aside Jackson's ability to do some things well and enjoyably,
            even from the point of view of complete prior antipathy there is always the
            question of exactly _how_ he will screw it up, and how badly.

            On both accounts, this isn't just a two-state process, on or off, up or
            down, yea or nay. I'm surprised at the attempt not to see that.


            From: David Bratman
            Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 6:21 PM
            To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming



            What makes you think I'd be able to avoid this movie by not seeing it?
            Should I retire from Tolkien fandom permanently, and hide out in a hermitage
            from the world for the next three years? That would be the only way to do
            so. Better I should see it as soon as possible, and not have my first
            reaction influenced by others'.

            As for fighting the crowds, I won't have to. I have a ticket already.



            -----Original Message-----
            From: Doug Kane
            Sent: Nov 9, 2012 5:52 PM
            To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming




            I'm a bit baffled at why you feel compelled to not only go see a film that
            you know with a doubt you will hate, but to even fight the inevitable huge
            crowds to do so when it first opens. But to each his own!


            From: David Bratman
            Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 5:28 PM
            To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [mythsoc] it's coming



            I feel like I've signed my own death certificate.

            I've just bought my ticket to the December 14th premiere of part one of
            the Hobbit movie. (Online at Fandango.)

            Weep with me.


            No virus found in this message.
            Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
            Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2441/5385 - Release Date: 11/09/12






            No virus found in this message.
            Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
            Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2441/5385 - Release Date: 11/09/12
          • James Curcio
            Can we rename this list the curmudgeons of fantasy ? ;P ... Can we rename this list the curmudgeons of fantasy ? ;P On Nov 9, 2012 11:50 PM, Mike Foster
            Message 5 of 23 , Nov 12, 2012
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              Can we rename this list "the curmudgeons of fantasy"? ;P

              On Nov 9, 2012 11:50 PM, "Mike Foster" <mafoster@...> wrote:
               

              You know you already hate it.
               
              But now you will have reasons.
               
              Far Westfarthing smial is re-reading The Hobbit for Nov. 30.  If we don’t get past the chapters with Radagast (how the Fudd did we miss those on our 40 years of previous readings?), there’s always next year.
               
              Mike
               
              Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 10:17 PM
              Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming
               
               

              -----Original Message-----
              >From: David Bratman <mailto:dbratman%40earthlink.net>
              >
              >I feel like I've signed my own death certificate.
              >
              >I've just bought my ticket to the December 14th premiere of part one of the Hobbit movie. (Online at Fandango.)
              >
              >Weep with me.
              >------------------------------------

              You can run, but you can't hide.

              emerdavid

            • Doug Kane
              Fair enough, David. I think I have read most of what you have written about the films, including your essay in Tolkien on Film, your brief comments about
              Message 6 of 23 , Nov 12, 2012
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                Fair enough, David.  I think I have read most of what you have written about the films, including your essay in Tolkien on Film, your brief comments about Howard Shore's score in Middle-earth Minstrel that got blown out of proportion in a review of that book, and the entertaining though sometimes acrimonious discussions on this list, much of which predate my time on it.  I actually agree with much of what I have seen that you have said, though my overall opinion of the films are undoubtedly higher than yours (which actually supports your main point that it isn't a two-state process).  I will say that I am confident that it is highly likely that I have followed the details about the new films more closely than you have, and that I am equally confident that it is quite likely that your reaction overall will be even more negative than it was to the LotR films (though I won't give details; what would be the fun of that?).  The one thing that I can say with complete confidence, however, is that I will find what you have say about the films interesting and worthwhile.
                 
                Doug

                Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 1:58 AM
                Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

                 

                "Doug Kane" <dougkane@...> wrote:

                >Even if you have a ticket, you are still going to have to wait
                on a long
                >line to get
                >in.

                You had said "fight crowds." I won't have to fight crowds. I'll just wait
                in line and read a book, which is what I'd be doing at home if I weren't
                there anyway. It would be a strange way to save time by waiting weeks,
                maybe, to get around to seeing the movie just to avoid having to stand in
                line for maybe an hour. Weeks are longer than an hour.

                >As for your having your first reaction influenced by
                others, I don't think
                >there is
                >much chance of that. You're a
                pretty strong-willed person by all accounts.

                What, you think I'm afraid that a favorable review would turn my head?
                There's a lot more to reactions and their influence on people than a simple
                yea-or-nay.

                >Besides,
                I'm pretty sure that you already know what your first reaction
                >will
                be:
                >horror, mixed with a fair amount of disgust, tinged by anger, and
                sadness
                >about
                >what could have been.

                And reactions to a movie are more than simply ranking it on a 1-to-10 scale.
                Even leaving aside Jackson's ability to do some things well and enjoyably,
                even from the point of view of complete prior antipathy there is always the
                question of exactly _how_ he will screw it up, and how badly.

                On both accounts, this isn't just a two-state process, on or off, up or
                down, yea or nay. I'm surprised at the attempt not to see that.

                From: David Bratman
                Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 6:21 PM
                To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

                What makes you think I'd be able to avoid this movie by not seeing it?
                Should I retire from Tolkien fandom permanently, and hide out in a hermitage
                from the world for the next three years? That would be the only way to do
                so. Better I should see it as soon as possible, and not have my first
                reaction influenced by others'.

                As for fighting the crowds, I won't have to. I have a ticket already.

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Doug Kane
                Sent: Nov 9, 2012 5:52 PM
                To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

                I'm a bit baffled at why you feel compelled to not only go see a film that
                you know with a doubt you will hate, but to even fight the inevitable huge
                crowds to do so when it first opens. But to each his own!

                From: David Bratman
                Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 5:28 PM
                To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [mythsoc] it's coming

                I feel like I've signed my own death certificate.

                I've just bought my ticket to the December 14th premiere of part one of
                the Hobbit movie. (Online at Fandango.)

                Weep with me.

                No virus found in this message.
                Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2441/5385 - Release Date: 11/09/12

                No virus found in this message.
                Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2441/5385 - Release Date: 11/09/12

                No virus found in this message.
                Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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              • Mich
                Hi all. as a new member to this list and as others have said I to wasn t on this list when the lotr films came out I would like to know where I would be able
                Message 7 of 23 , Nov 12, 2012
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                  Hi all. as a new member to this list and as others have said I to wasn't on this list when the lotr films came out I would like to know where I would be able to read David's Rightings on the lotr films and on the scor and all the stuff that he wrote about the lotr films and also on his thoughts on the upcoming Hobbett films? from Mich.
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Doug Kane
                  Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 10:22 AM
                  Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

                   

                  Fair enough, David.  I think I have read most of what you have written about the films, including your essay in Tolkien on Film, your brief comments about Howard Shore's score in Middle-earth Minstrel that got blown out of proportion in a review of that book, and the entertaining though sometimes acrimonious discussions on this list, much of which predate my time on it.  I actually agree with much of what I have seen that you have said, though my overall opinion of the films are undoubtedly higher than yours (which actually supports your main point that it isn't a two-state process).  I will say that I am confident that it is highly likely that I have followed the details about the new films more closely than you have, and that I am equally confident that it is quite likely that your reaction overall will be even more negative than it was to the LotR films (though I won't give details; what would be the fun of that?).  The one thing that I can say with complete confidence, however, is that I will find what you have say about the films interesting and worthwhile.
                   
                  Doug

                  Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 1:58 AM
                  Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

                   

                  "Doug Kane" <dougkane@...> wrote:

                  >Even if you have a ticket, you are still going to have to wait on a long
                  >line to get
                  >in.

                  You had said "fight crowds." I won't have to fight crowds. I'll just wait
                  in line and read a book, which is what I'd be doing at home if I weren't
                  there anyway. It would be a strange way to save time by waiting weeks,
                  maybe, to get around to seeing the movie just to avoid having to stand in
                  line for maybe an hour. Weeks are longer than an hour.

                  >As for your having your first reaction influenced by others, I don't think
                  >there is
                  >much chance of that. You're a pretty strong-willed person by all accounts.

                  What, you think I'm afraid that a favorable review would turn my head?
                  There's a lot more to reactions and their influence on people than a simple
                  yea-or-nay.

                  >Besides, I'm pretty sure that you already know what your first reaction
                  >will be:
                  >horror, mixed with a fair amount of disgust, tinged by anger, and sadness
                  >about
                  >what could have been.

                  And reactions to a movie are more than simply ranking it on a 1-to-10 scale.
                  Even leaving aside Jackson's ability to do some things well and enjoyably,
                  even from the point of view of complete prior antipathy there is always the
                  question of exactly _how_ he will screw it up, and how badly.

                  On both accounts, this isn't just a two-state process, on or off, up or
                  down, yea or nay. I'm surprised at the attempt not to see that.

                  From: David Bratman
                  Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 6:21 PM
                  To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

                  What makes you think I'd be able to avoid this movie by not seeing it?
                  Should I retire from Tolkien fandom permanently, and hide out in a hermitage
                  from the world for the next three years? That would be the only way to do
                  so. Better I should see it as soon as possible, and not have my first
                  reaction influenced by others'.

                  As for fighting the crowds, I won't have to. I have a ticket already.

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Doug Kane
                  Sent: Nov 9, 2012 5:52 PM
                  To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

                  I'm a bit baffled at why you feel compelled to not only go see a film that
                  you know with a doubt you will hate, but to even fight the inevitable huge
                  crowds to do so when it first opens. But to each his own!

                  From: David Bratman
                  Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 5:28 PM
                  To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [mythsoc] it's coming

                  I feel like I've signed my own death certificate.

                  I've just bought my ticket to the December 14th premiere of part one of
                  the Hobbit movie. (Online at Fandango.)

                  Weep with me.

                  No virus found in this message.
                  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                  Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2441/5385 - Release Date: 11/09/12

                  No virus found in this message.
                  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                  Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2441/5385 - Release Date: 11/09/12

                  No virus found in this message.
                  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                  Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2441/5389 - Release Date: 11/11/12

                • Croft, Janet B.
                  David’s essay “Summa Jacksonica: A Reply to Defenses of Peter Jackson’s Lord of the Rings films, after St. Thomas Aquinas” and a number of other
                  Message 8 of 23 , Nov 12, 2012
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                    David’s essay “Summa Jacksonica: A Reply to Defenses of Peter Jackson’s Lord of the Rings films, after St. Thomas Aquinas” and a number of other articles are available in the Mythopoeic Press’s book Tolkien on Film:

                     

                    http://www.mythsoc.org/press/tolkien-on-film/

                     

                     

                    Janet Brennan Croft

                    Associate Professor
                    Head of Access Services
                    University of Oklahoma Libraries
                    Bizzell 106NW
                    Norman OK 73019
                    405-325-1918
                    Fax 405-325-7618
                    jbcroft@...
                    http://ou.academia.edu/JanetCroft

                    http://libraries.ou.edu/
                    Editor of Mythlore
                    http://www.mythsoc.org/mythlore.html

                    Book Review Editor of Oklahoma Librarian http://www.oklibs.org/oklibrarian/current/index.html

                    “Almost as entertaining as the guy with a tank full of scorpions. But not quite.” OKC Mensa, after I lectured on Tolkien and war.

                     

                    From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mich
                    Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 11:39 AM
                    To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

                     

                     

                    

                    Hi all. as a new member to this list and as others have said I to wasn't on this list when the lotr films came out I would like to know where I would be able to read David's Rightings on the lotr films and on the scor and all the stuff that he wrote about the lotr films and also on his thoughts on the upcoming Hobbett films? from Mich.

                    ----- Original Message -----

                    Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 10:22 AM

                    Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

                     

                     

                    Fair enough, David.  I think I have read most of what you have written about the films, including your essay in Tolkien on Film, your brief comments about Howard Shore's score in Middle-earth Minstrel that got blown out of proportion in a review of that book, and the entertaining though sometimes acrimonious discussions on this list, much of which predate my time on it.  I actually agree with much of what I have seen that you have said, though my overall opinion of the films are undoubtedly higher than yours (which actually supports your main point that it isn't a two-state process).  I will say that I am confident that it is highly likely that I have followed the details about the new films more closely than you have, and that I am equally confident that it is quite likely that your reaction overall will be even more negative than it was to the LotR films (though I won't give details; what would be the fun of that?).  The one thing that I can say with complete confidence, however, is that I will find what you have say about the films interesting and worthwhile.

                     

                    Doug

                     

                    Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 1:58 AM

                    Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

                     

                     

                    "Doug Kane" <dougkane@...> wrote:

                    >Even if you have a ticket, you are still going to have to wait on a long
                    >line to get
                    >in.

                    You had said "fight crowds." I won't have to fight crowds. I'll just wait
                    in line and read a book, which is what I'd be doing at home if I weren't
                    there anyway. It would be a strange way to save time by waiting weeks,
                    maybe, to get around to seeing the movie just to avoid having to stand in
                    line for maybe an hour. Weeks are longer than an hour.

                    >As for your having your first reaction influenced by others, I don't think
                    >there is
                    >much chance of that. You're a pretty strong-willed person by all accounts.

                    What, you think I'm afraid that a favorable review would turn my head?
                    There's a lot more to reactions and their influence on people than a simple
                    yea-or-nay.

                    >Besides, I'm pretty sure that you already know what your first reaction
                    >will be:
                    >horror, mixed with a fair amount of disgust, tinged by anger, and sadness
                    >about
                    >what could have been.

                    And reactions to a movie are more than simply ranking it on a 1-to-10 scale.
                    Even leaving aside Jackson's ability to do some things well and enjoyably,
                    even from the point of view of complete prior antipathy there is always the
                    question of exactly _how_ he will screw it up, and how badly.

                    On both accounts, this isn't just a two-state process, on or off, up or
                    down, yea or nay. I'm surprised at the attempt not to see that.

                    From: David Bratman
                    Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 6:21 PM
                    To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

                    What makes you think I'd be able to avoid this movie by not seeing it?
                    Should I retire from Tolkien fandom permanently, and hide out in a hermitage
                    from the world for the next three years? That would be the only way to do
                    so. Better I should see it as soon as possible, and not have my first
                    reaction influenced by others'.

                    As for fighting the crowds, I won't have to. I have a ticket already.

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Doug Kane
                    Sent: Nov 9, 2012 5:52 PM
                    To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

                    I'm a bit baffled at why you feel compelled to not only go see a film that
                    you know with a doubt you will hate, but to even fight the inevitable huge
                    crowds to do so when it first opens. But to each his own!

                    From: David Bratman
                    Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 5:28 PM
                    To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [mythsoc] it's coming

                    I feel like I've signed my own death certificate.

                    I've just bought my ticket to the December 14th premiere of part one of
                    the Hobbit movie. (Online at Fandango.)

                    Weep with me.

                    No virus found in this message.
                    Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                    Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2441/5385 - Release Date: 11/09/12

                    No virus found in this message.
                    Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                    Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2441/5385 - Release Date: 11/09/12

                    No virus found in this message.
                    Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                    Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2441/5389 - Release Date: 11/11/12

                  • Doug Kane
                    Which (as Janet is no doubt too modest to point out), is edited by her, and contains her own fine essay Mithril Coats and Tin Ears: ‘Anticipation’ and
                    Message 9 of 23 , Nov 12, 2012
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                      Which (as Janet is no doubt too modest to point out), is edited by her, and contains her own fine essay "Mithril Coats and Tin Ears: ‘Anticipation’ and ‘Flattening’ in Peter Jackson’s The Lord of the Rings Trilogy." 
                       
                      The other essay that I referred to is "Liquid Tolkien: Music, Tolkien, Middle-earth, and More Music" in Middle-earth Minstrel: Essays on Music in Tolkien. Edited by Bradford Lee Eden. Jefferson, N.C.: McFarland, 2010. 140-170.  Although the comments about the score are a very brief portion in an essay about Tolkien-inspired music.
                       
                      As for comments made here on this list, there is a searchable archive if someone is intrepid enough to search through it for old discussions about the films.
                       
                      Doug

                      Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 9:49 AM
                      Subject: RE: [mythsoc] it's coming

                       

                      David’s essay “Summa Jacksonica: A Reply to Defenses of Peter Jackson’s Lord of the Rings films, after St. Thomas Aquinas” and a number of other articles are available in the Mythopoeic Press’s book Tolkien on Film:

                      http://www.mythsoc.org/press/tolkien-on-film/

                      Janet Brennan Croft

                      Associate Professor
                      Head of Access Services
                      University of Oklahoma Libraries
                      Bizzell 106NW
                      Norman OK 73019
                      405-325-1918
                      Fax 405-325-7618
                      jbcroft@...
                      http://ou.academia.edu/JanetCroft

                      http://libraries.ou.edu/
                      Editor of Mythlore
                      http://www.mythsoc.org/mythlore.html

                      Book Review Editor of Oklahoma Librarian http://www.oklibs.org/oklibrarian/current/index.html

                      “Almost as entertaining as the guy with a tank full of scorpions. But not quite.” OKC Mensa, after I lectured on Tolkien and war.

                      From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mich
                      Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 11:39 AM
                      To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

                       

                      

                      Hi all. as a new member to this list and as others have said I to wasn't on this list when the lotr films came out I would like to know where I would be able to read David's Rightings on the lotr films and on the scor and all the stuff that he wrote about the lotr films and also on his thoughts on the upcoming Hobbett films? from Mich.

                      ----- Original Message -----

                      From: Doug Kane

                      Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 10:22 AM

                      Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

                       

                      Fair enough, David.  I think I have read most of what you have written about the films, including your essay in Tolkien on Film, your brief comments about Howard Shore's score in Middle-earth Minstrel that got blown out of proportion in a review of that book, and the entertaining though sometimes acrimonious discussions on this list, much of which predate my time on it.  I actually agree with much of what I have seen that you have said, though my overall opinion of the films are undoubtedly higher than yours (which actually supports your main point that it isn't a two-state process).  I will say that I am confident that it is highly likely that I have followed the details about the new films more closely than you have, and that I am equally confident that it is quite likely that your reaction overall will be even more negative than it was to the LotR films (though I won't give details; what would be the fun of that?).  The one thing that I can say with complete confidence, however, is that I will find what you have say about the films interesting and worthwhile.

                      Doug

                      Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 1:58 AM

                      Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

                       

                      "Doug Kane" <dougkane@...> wrote:

                      >Even if you have a ticket, you are still going to have to wait on a long
                      >line to get
                      >in.

                      You had said "fight crowds." I won't have to fight crowds. I'll just wait
                      in line and read a book, which is what I'd be doing at home if I weren't
                      there anyway. It would be a strange way to save time by waiting weeks,
                      maybe, to get around to seeing the movie just to avoid having to stand in
                      line for maybe an hour. Weeks are longer than an hour.

                      >As for your having your first reaction influenced by others, I don't think
                      >there is
                      >much chance of that. You're a pretty strong-willed person by all accounts.

                      What, you think I'm afraid that a favorable review would turn my head?
                      There's a lot more to reactions and their influence on people than a simple
                      yea-or-nay.

                      >Besides, I'm pretty sure that you already know what your first reaction
                      >will be:
                      >horror, mixed with a fair amount of disgust, tinged by anger, and sadness
                      >about
                      >what could have been.

                      And reactions to a movie are more than simply ranking it on a 1-to-10 scale.
                      Even leaving aside Jackson's ability to do some things well and enjoyably,
                      even from the point of view of complete prior antipathy there is always the
                      question of exactly _how_ he will screw it up, and how badly.

                      On both accounts, this isn't just a two-state process, on or off, up or
                      down, yea or nay. I'm surprised at the attempt not to see that.

                      From: David Bratman
                      Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 6:21 PM
                      To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

                      What makes you think I'd be able to avoid this movie by not seeing it?
                      Should I retire from Tolkien fandom permanently, and hide out in a hermitage
                      from the world for the next three years? That would be the only way to do
                      so. Better I should see it as soon as possible, and not have my first
                      reaction influenced by others'.

                      As for fighting the crowds, I won't have to. I have a ticket already.

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Doug Kane
                      Sent: Nov 9, 2012 5:52 PM
                      To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

                      I'm a bit baffled at why you feel compelled to not only go see a film that
                      you know with a doubt you will hate, but to even fight the inevitable huge
                      crowds to do so when it first opens. But to each his own!

                      From: David Bratman
                      Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 5:28 PM
                      To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [mythsoc] it's coming

                      I feel like I've signed my own death certificate.

                      I've just bought my ticket to the December 14th premiere of part one of
                      the Hobbit movie. (Online at Fandango.)

                      Weep with me.

                      No virus found in this message.
                      Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                      Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2441/5385 - Release Date: 11/09/12

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                      Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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                    • David Bratman
                      ... From: Doug Kane To: Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 7:22 AM Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it s coming
                      Message 10 of 23 , Nov 12, 2012
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                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Doug Kane" <dougkane@...>
                        To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 7:22 AM
                        Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming


                        Fair enough, David. I think I have read most of what you have written about
                        the films, including your essay in Tolkien on Film, your brief comments
                        about Howard Shore's score in Middle-earth Minstrel that got blown out of
                        proportion in a review of that book, and the entertaining though sometimes
                        acrimonious discussions on this list, much of which predate my time on it.
                        I actually agree with much of what I have seen that you have said, though my
                        overall opinion of the films are undoubtedly higher than yours (which
                        actually supports your main point that it isn't a two-state process). I
                        will say that I am confident that it is highly likely that I have followed
                        the details about the new films more closely than you have, and that I am
                        equally confident that it is quite likely that your reaction overall will be
                        even more negative than it was to the LotR films (though I won't give
                        details; what would be the fun of that?). The one thing that I can say with
                        complete confidence, however, is that I will find what you have say about
                        the films interesting and worthwhile.

                        Doug


                        From: David Bratman
                        Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 1:58 AM
                        To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming



                        "Doug Kane" <dougkane@...> wrote:

                        >Even if you have a ticket, you are still going to have to wait on a long
                        >line to get
                        >in.

                        You had said "fight crowds." I won't have to fight crowds. I'll just wait
                        in line and read a book, which is what I'd be doing at home if I weren't
                        there anyway. It would be a strange way to save time by waiting weeks,
                        maybe, to get around to seeing the movie just to avoid having to stand in
                        line for maybe an hour. Weeks are longer than an hour.

                        >As for your having your first reaction influenced by others, I don't think
                        >there is
                        >much chance of that. You're a pretty strong-willed person by all accounts.

                        What, you think I'm afraid that a favorable review would turn my head?
                        There's a lot more to reactions and their influence on people than a simple
                        yea-or-nay.

                        >Besides, I'm pretty sure that you already know what your first reaction
                        >will be:
                        >horror, mixed with a fair amount of disgust, tinged by anger, and sadness
                        >about
                        >what could have been.

                        And reactions to a movie are more than simply ranking it on a 1-to-10 scale.
                        Even leaving aside Jackson's ability to do some things well and enjoyably,
                        even from the point of view of complete prior antipathy there is always the
                        question of exactly _how_ he will screw it up, and how badly.

                        On both accounts, this isn't just a two-state process, on or off, up or
                        down, yea or nay. I'm surprised at the attempt not to see that.

                        From: David Bratman
                        Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 6:21 PM
                        To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

                        What makes you think I'd be able to avoid this movie by not seeing it?
                        Should I retire from Tolkien fandom permanently, and hide out in a hermitage
                        from the world for the next three years? That would be the only way to do
                        so. Better I should see it as soon as possible, and not have my first
                        reaction influenced by others'.

                        As for fighting the crowds, I won't have to. I have a ticket already.

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Doug Kane
                        Sent: Nov 9, 2012 5:52 PM
                        To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

                        I'm a bit baffled at why you feel compelled to not only go see a film that
                        you know with a doubt you will hate, but to even fight the inevitable huge
                        crowds to do so when it first opens. But to each his own!

                        From: David Bratman
                        Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 5:28 PM
                        To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [mythsoc] it's coming

                        I feel like I've signed my own death certificate.

                        I've just bought my ticket to the December 14th premiere of part one of
                        the Hobbit movie. (Online at Fandango.)

                        Weep with me.

                        No virus found in this message.
                        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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                        No virus found in this message.
                        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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                      • Croft, Janet B.
                        Why thank you! I was just talking to my daughter about how Jackson is likely to “anticipate” things in The Hobbit movies, based on the trailers, ratcheting
                        Message 11 of 23 , Nov 12, 2012
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                          Why thank you!

                           

                          I was just talking to my daughter about how Jackson is likely to “anticipate” things in The Hobbit movies, based on the trailers, ratcheting up the violence/horror factors early on and leaving nothing to build up to. If Bilbo is involved in a sword fight with a goblin under the Misty Mountains, as he appears to be, it makes the bravery of drawing a sword on the spiders later a bit anticlimactic.

                           

                          Janet

                           

                          From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Doug Kane
                          Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 12:24 PM
                          To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

                           

                           

                          Which (as Janet is no doubt too modest to point out), is edited by her, and contains her own fine essay "Mithril Coats and Tin Ears: ‘Anticipation’ and ‘Flattening’ in Peter Jackson’s The Lord of the Rings Trilogy." 

                           

                          The other essay that I referred to is "Liquid Tolkien: Music, Tolkien, Middle-earth, and More Music" in Middle-earth Minstrel: Essays on Music in Tolkien. Edited by Bradford Lee Eden. Jefferson, N.C.: McFarland, 2010. 140-170.  Although the comments about the score are a very brief portion in an essay about Tolkien-inspired music.

                           

                          As for comments made here on this list, there is a searchable archive if someone is intrepid enough to search through it for old discussions about the films.

                           

                          Doug

                           

                          Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 9:49 AM

                          Subject: RE: [mythsoc] it's coming

                           

                           

                          David’s essay “Summa Jacksonica: A Reply to Defenses of Peter Jackson’s Lord of the Rings films, after St. Thomas Aquinas” and a number of other articles are available in the Mythopoeic Press’s book Tolkien on Film:

                          http://www.mythsoc.org/press/tolkien-on-film/

                          Janet Brennan Croft

                          Associate Professor
                          Head of Access Services
                          University of Oklahoma Libraries
                          Bizzell 106NW
                          Norman OK 73019
                          405-325-1918
                          Fax 405-325-7618
                          jbcroft@...
                          http://ou.academia.edu/JanetCroft

                          http://libraries.ou.edu/
                          Editor of Mythlore
                          http://www.mythsoc.org/mythlore.html

                          Book Review Editor of Oklahoma Librarian http://www.oklibs.org/oklibrarian/current/index.html

                          “Almost as entertaining as the guy with a tank full of scorpions. But not quite.” OKC Mensa, after I lectured on Tolkien and war.

                          From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mich
                          Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 11:39 AM
                          To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

                           

                          

                          Hi all. as a new member to this list and as others have said I to wasn't on this list when the lotr films came out I would like to know where I would be able to read David's Rightings on the lotr films and on the scor and all the stuff that he wrote about the lotr films and also on his thoughts on the upcoming Hobbett films? from Mich.

                          ----- Original Message -----

                          From: Doug Kane

                          Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 10:22 AM

                          Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

                           

                          Fair enough, David.  I think I have read most of what you have written about the films, including your essay in Tolkien on Film, your brief comments about Howard Shore's score in Middle-earth Minstrel that got blown out of proportion in a review of that book, and the entertaining though sometimes acrimonious discussions on this list, much of which predate my time on it.  I actually agree with much of what I have seen that you have said, though my overall opinion of the films are undoubtedly higher than yours (which actually supports your main point that it isn't a two-state process).  I will say that I am confident that it is highly likely that I have followed the details about the new films more closely than you have, and that I am equally confident that it is quite likely that your reaction overall will be even more negative than it was to the LotR films (though I won't give details; what would be the fun of that?).  The one thing that I can say with complete confidence, however, is that I will find what you have say about the films interesting and worthwhile.

                          Doug

                          Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 1:58 AM

                          Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

                           

                          "Doug Kane" <dougkane@...> wrote:

                          >Even if you have a ticket, you are still going to have to wait on a long
                          >line to get
                          >in.

                          You had said "fight crowds." I won't have to fight crowds. I'll just wait
                          in line and read a book, which is what I'd be doing at home if I weren't
                          there anyway. It would be a strange way to save time by waiting weeks,
                          maybe, to get around to seeing the movie just to avoid having to stand in
                          line for maybe an hour. Weeks are longer than an hour.

                          >As for your having your first reaction influenced by others, I don't think
                          >there is
                          >much chance of that. You're a pretty strong-willed person by all accounts.

                          What, you think I'm afraid that a favorable review would turn my head?
                          There's a lot more to reactions and their influence on people than a simple
                          yea-or-nay.

                          >Besides, I'm pretty sure that you already know what your first reaction
                          >will be:
                          >horror, mixed with a fair amount of disgust, tinged by anger, and sadness
                          >about
                          >what could have been.

                          And reactions to a movie are more than simply ranking it on a 1-to-10 scale.
                          Even leaving aside Jackson's ability to do some things well and enjoyably,
                          even from the point of view of complete prior antipathy there is always the
                          question of exactly _how_ he will screw it up, and how badly.

                          On both accounts, this isn't just a two-state process, on or off, up or
                          down, yea or nay. I'm surprised at the attempt not to see that.

                          From: David Bratman
                          Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 6:21 PM
                          To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

                          What makes you think I'd be able to avoid this movie by not seeing it?
                          Should I retire from Tolkien fandom permanently, and hide out in a hermitage
                          from the world for the next three years? That would be the only way to do
                          so. Better I should see it as soon as possible, and not have my first
                          reaction influenced by others'.

                          As for fighting the crowds, I won't have to. I have a ticket already.

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Doug Kane
                          Sent: Nov 9, 2012 5:52 PM
                          To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

                          I'm a bit baffled at why you feel compelled to not only go see a film that
                          you know with a doubt you will hate, but to even fight the inevitable huge
                          crowds to do so when it first opens. But to each his own!

                          From: David Bratman
                          Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 5:28 PM
                          To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [mythsoc] it's coming

                          I feel like I've signed my own death certificate.

                          I've just bought my ticket to the December 14th premiere of part one of
                          the Hobbit movie. (Online at Fandango.)

                          Weep with me.

                          No virus found in this message.
                          Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                          Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2441/5385 - Release Date: 11/09/12

                          No virus found in this message.
                          Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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                        • David Bratman
                          ... They did. Some people have a very protective attitude towards old Howard. At a much earlier date on some list, possibly here, I first expressed my opinion
                          Message 12 of 23 , Nov 12, 2012
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                            "Doug Kane" <dougkane@...> wrote:

                            >Fair enough, David. I think I have read most of what you have written
                            >about
                            >the films, including your essay in Tolkien on Film, your brief comments
                            >about Howard Shore's score in Middle-earth Minstrel that got blown out of
                            >proportion in a review of that book

                            They did. Some people have a very protective attitude towards old Howard.
                            At a much earlier date on some list, possibly here, I first expressed my
                            opinion that his music was competent hackwork, no more than that, and
                            someone reacted with incredulity that my prejudice against Jackson was so
                            overwhelming that I even took it out on the innocent music. Actually, I'm
                            better-qualified to review classical and pseudo-classical music than I am to
                            review movies: I actually have a job doing it.

                            >I will say that I am confident that it is highly likely that I have
                            >followed
                            >the details about the new films more closely than you have, and that I am
                            >equally confident that it is quite likely that your reaction overall will
                            >be
                            >even more negative than it was to the LotR films (though I won't give
                            >details; what would be the fun of that?).

                            In that case, I thank you for not revealing the details. As I said, that's
                            why I'm going on the first day, to get the most untrammeled reaction that I
                            can.


                            >The one thing that I can say with
                            >complete confidence, however, is that I will find what you have say about
                            >the films interesting and worthwhile.

                            Well, thank you. Every once in a while a novel or movie comes along that's
                            so bad that one reads or sits through it for the sheer pleasure of taking it
                            apart afterwards. I hold out hope that The Hobbit will not be that movie.
                          • David Emerson
                            ... My sentiments exactly! I m looking forward to my fellow David s comments more than to the film itself. David Emerson
                            Message 13 of 23 , Nov 13, 2012
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                              >From: "Doug Kane" <dougkane@...>
                              >
                              >...The one thing that I can say with
                              >complete confidence, however, is that I will find what you [D. Bratman] have say about
                              >the films interesting and worthwhile.

                              My sentiments exactly! I'm looking forward to my fellow David's comments more than to the film itself.


                              David Emerson
                            • Mich
                              I agree I am looking forwerd to people s comments about the film for shure. of korceI will have commentsof myoan as well. from Mich. ... From: David Emerson
                              Message 14 of 23 , Nov 13, 2012
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                                I agree I am looking forwerd to people's comments about the film for shure. of korceI will have commentsof myoan as well. from Mich. 
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 12:00 PM
                                Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming

                                 

                                >From: "Doug Kane" <dougkane@...>
                                >
                                >...The one thing that I can say with
                                >complete confidence, however, is that I will find what you [D. Bratman] have say about
                                >the films interesting and worthwhile.

                                My sentiments exactly! I'm looking forward to my fellow David's comments more than to the film itself.

                                David Emerson

                              • John Rateliff
                                ... Which reminds me: for those looking forward to Shore s soundtrack, the cd goes on sale December 11th, three days before the movie comes out. Those who want
                                Message 15 of 23 , Nov 13, 2012
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                                  On Nov 12, 2012, at 11:26 AM, David Bratman wrote:

                                  . . .    Some people have a very protective attitude towards old Howard.
                                  At a much earlier date on some list, possibly here, I first expressed my
                                  opinion that his music was competent hackwork, no more than that, and
                                  someone reacted with incredulity that my prejudice against Jackson was so
                                  overwhelming that I even took it out on the innocent music.  Actually, I'm
                                  better-qualified to review classical and pseudo-classical music than I am to
                                  review movies: I actually have a job doing it.


                                  Which reminds me: for those looking forward to Shore's soundtrack, the cd goes on sale December 11th, three days before the movie comes out.


                                  Those who want to avoid spoilers shd not look at the list of track titles, though, since they give clues as to which scenes from the original will be included (and also what some of the interpolated scenes must be).

                                  --John R.
                                • Doug Kane
                                  For those who can t wait that long, it is available for listening at: http://www.empireonline.com/news/story.asp?NID=35757 Doug From: John Rateliff Sent:
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Nov 13, 2012
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                                    For those who can't wait that long, it is available for listening at:  http://www.empireonline.com/news/story.asp?NID=35757
                                     
                                    Doug

                                    Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 9:57 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming (the music)

                                     


                                    On Nov 12, 2012, at 11:26 AM, David Bratman wrote:

                                    . . .    Some people have a very protective attitude towards old Howard.
                                    At a much earlier date on some list, possibly here, I first expressed my
                                    opinion that his music was competent hackwork, no more than that, and
                                    someone reacted with incredulity that my prejudice against Jackson was so
                                    overwhelming that I even took it out on the innocent music.  Actually, I'm
                                    better-qualified to review classical and pseudo-classical music than I am to
                                    review movies: I actually have a job doing it.


                                    Which reminds me: for those looking forward to Shore's soundtrack, the cd goes on sale December 11th, three days before the movie comes out.


                                    Those who want to avoid spoilers shd not look at the list of track titles, though, since they give clues as to which scenes from the original will be included (and also what some of the interpolated scenes must be).

                                    --John R.


                                    No virus found in this message.
                                    Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                    Version: 10.0.1427 / Virus Database: 2441/5392 - Release Date: 11/13/12

                                  • Jason Fisher
                                    Thanks for sharing this, Doug. ... it is available for listening at:  http://www.empireonline.com/news/story.asp?NID=35757 ... much earlier date on some list,
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Nov 13, 2012
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                                      Thanks for sharing this, Doug.


                                      From: Doug Kane <dougkane@...>
                                      To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 11:17 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming (the music)

                                       
                                      For those who can't wait that long, it is available for listening at:  http://www.empireonline.com/news/story.asp?NID=35757
                                       
                                      Doug

                                      Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 9:57 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [mythsoc] it's coming (the music)

                                       

                                      On Nov 12, 2012, at 11:26 AM, David Bratman wrote:

                                      . . .    Some people have a very protective attitude towards old Howard.
                                      At a much earlier date on some list, possibly here, I first expressed my
                                      opinion that his music was competent hackwork, no more than that, and
                                      someone reacted with incredulity that my prejudice against Jackson was so
                                      overwhelming that I even took it out on the innocent music.  Actually, I'm
                                      better-qualified to review classical and pseudo-classical music than I am to
                                      review movies: I actually have a job doing it.


                                      Which reminds me: for those looking forward to Shore's soundtrack, the cd goes on sale December 11th, three days before the movie comes out.


                                      Those who want to avoid spoilers shd not look at the list of track titles, though, since they give clues as to which scenes from the original will be included (and also what some of the interpolated scenes must be).

                                      --John R.

                                      No virus found in this message.
                                      Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                      Version: 10.0.1427 / Virus Database: 2441/5392 - Release Date: 11/13/12


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