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Re: [mythsoc] Hobbit trailer

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  • WendellWag@aol.com
    I think the people at WETA largely stole the visual side of the Peter Jackson movies of The Lord of the Rings from the 40-year tradition of fan art which
    Message 1 of 17 , Sep 19, 2012
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      I think the people at WETA largely stole the visual side of the Peter Jackson movies of The Lord of the Rings from the 40-year tradition of fan art which preceded the movies.  They compensated some of these artists by hiring them to do various artistic things for the films.  They didn't compensate others of them at all.
       
      Wendell Wagner
       
      In a message dated 9/19/2012 3:42:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jamescurcio@... writes:
      I think the people at weta did an amazing job bringing the visual/art direction side of lord of rings to life
    • Bill West
      Actually, the at work is from Alan Lee and John Howe who are professional artists who ve done the artwork for editions of the books and the calendars. I m
      Message 2 of 17 , Sep 19, 2012
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        Actually, the at work is from Alan Lee and John Howe who are professional artists
        who've done the artwork for editions of the books and the calendars.

        I 'm looking forward to the Hobbit movies.

        Bill West

        On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 12:09 AM, <WendellWag@...> wrote:
         

        I think the people at WETA largely stole the visual side of the Peter Jackson movies of The Lord of the Rings from the 40-year tradition of fan art which preceded the movies.  They compensated some of these artists by hiring them to do various artistic things for the films.  They didn't compensate others of them at all.
         
        Wendell Wagner
         
        In a message dated 9/19/2012 3:42:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jamescurcio@... writes:
        I think the people at weta did an amazing job bringing the visual/art direction side of lord of rings to life


      • Mich
        when I whent to the Gathering of The Fellowship back in 2006 I almost got to meet Alan Lee. I to am looking forwerd to the Hobbett Movies. from Mich. ... From:
        Message 3 of 17 , Sep 19, 2012
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          when I whent to the Gathering of The Fellowship back in 2006 I almost got to meet Alan Lee. I to am looking forwerd to the Hobbett Movies. from Mich.
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Bill West
          Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2012 12:23 AM
          Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Hobbit trailer

           

          Actually, the at work is from Alan Lee and John Howe who are professional artists
          who've done the artwork for editions of the books and the calendars.

          I 'm looking forward to the Hobbit movies.

          Bill West

          On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 12:09 AM, <WendellWag@...> wrote:
           

          I think the people at WETA largely stole the visual side of the Peter Jackson movies of The Lord of the Rings from the 40-year tradition of fan art which preceded the movies.  They compensated some of these artists by hiring them to do various artistic things for the films.  They didn't compensate others of them at all.
           
          Wendell Wagner
           
          In a message dated 9/19/2012 3:42:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jamescurcio@... writes:
          I think the people at weta did an amazing job bringing the visual/art direction side of lord of rings to life


        • WendellWag@aol.com
          Which is what I said. They compensated some of the artists whose artistic visions of Tolkien they used. Others they didn t. Wendell Wagner In a message
          Message 4 of 17 , Sep 19, 2012
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            Which is what I said.  They compensated some of the artists whose artistic visions of Tolkien they used.  Others they didn't.
             
            Wendell Wagner
             
            In a message dated 9/20/2012 12:24:03 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, billwest48@... writes:
            Actually, the at work is from Alan Lee and John Howe who are professional artists
          • David Bratman
            Wow, you guys are really determined to turn me into a Jackson-defender. Alan Lee and John Howe (besides being professionals and not fan artists, which is
            Message 5 of 17 , Sep 19, 2012
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              Wow, you guys are really determined to turn me into a Jackson-defender.

              Alan Lee and John Howe (besides being professionals and not fan artists,
              which is beside the point) didn't have their work stolen and then
              compensated for by being hired "to do various artistic things." They were
              in on the project as conceptual artists from an early stage. The movies
              look like their work because they designed the movies.

              As for other artists, I can't offhand thing of any other Tolkien artists,
              fan or pro, whose work the movies' visual style strongly resembles, except
              in a general way. (Dramatic mountains are going to look like dramatic
              mountains no matter who draws them; pseudo-medieval traveling clothes all
              have a vague resemblance; Tolkien's descriptions of Bag End or Gollum are
              enough to guide many, though far from all, artists in a specific general
              direction; etc.)



              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <WendellWag@...>
              To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 9:09 PM
              Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Hobbit trailer


              >I think the people at WETA largely stole the visual side of the Peter
              > Jackson movies of The Lord of the Rings from the 40-year tradition of fan
              > art
              > which preceded the movies. They compensated some of these artists by
              > hiring
              > them to do various artistic things for the films. They didn't compensate
              > others of them at all.
              >
              > Wendell Wagner
              >
              >
              > In a message dated 9/19/2012 3:42:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
              > jamescurcio@... writes:
              >
              > I think the people at weta did an amazing job bringing the visual/art
              > direction side of lord of rings to life
              >
            • John D Rateliff
              Hi Wendell Certainly there s a long tradition of both fan and professional art, w plenty good and bad on both sides of that divide. Can you suggest some
              Message 6 of 17 , Sep 20, 2012
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                Hi Wendell

                Certainly there's a long tradition of both fan and professional art, w plenty good and bad on both sides of that divide. Can you suggest some examples of earlier fan art you think Jackson et al have drawn on? 

                Yrs,
                John R.
                -----Original Message-----
                From: WendellWag@...
                Sent: Sep 20, 2012 5:09 AM
                To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Hobbit trailer



                I think the people at WETA largely stole the visual side of the Peter Jackson movies of The Lord of the Rings from the 40-year tradition of fan art which preceded the movies.  They compensated some of these artists by hiring them to do various artistic things for the films.  They didn't compensate others of them at all.
                 
                Wendell Wagner
                 
                In a message dated 9/19/2012 3:42:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jamescurcio@... writes:
                I think the people at weta did an amazing job bringing the visual/art direction side of lord of rings to life


              • James Curcio
                Life s tough in the aluminum siding business.
                Message 7 of 17 , Sep 20, 2012
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                  Life's tough in the aluminum siding business.

                  On Sep 20, 2012 12:09 AM, <WendellWag@...> wrote:
                   

                  I think the people at WETA largely stole the visual side of the Peter Jackson movies of The Lord of the Rings from the 40-year tradition of fan art which preceded the movies.  They compensated some of these artists by hiring them to do various artistic things for the films.  They didn't compensate others of them at all.
                   
                  Wendell Wagner
                   
                  In a message dated 9/19/2012 3:42:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jamescurcio@... writes:
                  I think the people at weta did an amazing job bringing the visual/art direction side of lord of rings to life
                • Westermeyer GS11 Paul W
                  ... I was employing a rhetorical technique, I didn t actually freeze frame or count seconds. I was referring to the fact that almost none of the dialogue in
                  Message 8 of 17 , Sep 20, 2012
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                    > Posted by: "David Bratman" dbratman@... dbratman1
                    > Date: Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:48 pm ((PDT))
                    >
                    > The new trailer (well, new to me, anyway) shows Thror's map for about three
                    > seconds near the beginning; is that the authentic Tolkien you were
                    > referring to?

                    I was employing a rhetorical technique, I didn't actually freeze frame or count seconds. I was referring to the fact that almost none of the dialogue in the trailer was actually from the Hobbit, and parts that were from the Hobbit were shifted and used oddly (Bilbo speaking some of the descriptive text as if it were dialogue, for example).

                    I'm afraid the general trajectory of the films will continue. Fellowship was, Imo, the best of the films and it was the film most true to the source. Each film after that drew further and further from the source material, as Jackson began to feel empowered by the film success to corrupt the source material. I'm worried these will shift even more in that direction. :(


                    Paul Westermeyer
                    paul.westermeyer@...

                    "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
                    J. R. R. Tolkien, _The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring_
                  • James Curcio
                    As I m sure you knew, Jackson didn t want to direct the Hobbit. But he did jump in when it was clear the production might be endangered if he didn t. I don t
                    Message 9 of 17 , Sep 20, 2012
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                      As I'm sure you knew, Jackson didn't want to direct the Hobbit. But he did jump in when it was clear the production might be endangered if he didn't. I don't know. I really try to avoid the sour grapes effect. But that's just me. I'm not saying I'm happy with everything, but as I said previously, I don't think it is an easy job. No matter how they approach production they are going to piss off or alienate someone (or some many ones.) It comes down to what will make the most profit, in theory, and that is more coming from the studio than the director.

                      J

                      On Sep 20, 2012 9:00 AM, "Westermeyer GS11 Paul W" <paul.westermeyer@...> wrote:
                       

                      > Posted by: "David Bratman" dbratman@... dbratman1
                      > Date: Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:48 pm ((PDT))
                      >
                      > The new trailer (well, new to me, anyway) shows Thror's map for about three
                      > seconds near the beginning; is that the authentic Tolkien you were
                      > referring to?

                      I was employing a rhetorical technique, I didn't actually freeze frame or count seconds. I was referring to the fact that almost none of the dialogue in the trailer was actually from the Hobbit, and parts that were from the Hobbit were shifted and used oddly (Bilbo speaking some of the descriptive text as if it were dialogue, for example).

                      I'm afraid the general trajectory of the films will continue. Fellowship was, Imo, the best of the films and it was the film most true to the source. Each film after that drew further and further from the source material, as Jackson began to feel empowered by the film success to corrupt the source material. I'm worried these will shift even more in that direction. :(

                      Paul Westermeyer
                      paul.westermeyer@...

                      "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
                      J. R. R. Tolkien, _The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring_

                    • David Bratman
                      ... That was true of the LOTR films as well. Chunks of dialogue actually from the book, as opposed to loosely paraphrased, stood out like little nuggets. ...
                      Message 10 of 17 , Sep 20, 2012
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                        "Westermeyer GS11 Paul W" <paul.westermeyer@...> worte:

                        > I was referring to the fact that almost none of the dialogue in the
                        > trailer was actually
                        > from the Hobbit,

                        That was true of the LOTR films as well. Chunks of dialogue actually from
                        the book, as opposed to loosely paraphrased, stood out like little nuggets.

                        > and parts that were from the Hobbit were shifted and used oddly (Bilbo
                        > speaking some
                        > of the descriptive text as if it were dialogue, for example).

                        Treating the narrator of The Hobbit as Bilbo's voice has a very long
                        tradition, a tradition extending back as far as The Lord of the Rings.
                        "That house," LOTR says of Rivendell, "was, as Bilbo had long ago reported,"
                        and then it quotes (slightly reworded, but only slightly) from the narration
                        of The Hobbit.

                        > I'm afraid the general trajectory of the films will continue. Fellowship
                        > was, Imo, the best of
                        > the films and it was the film most true to the source. Each film after
                        > that drew further and
                        > further from the source material, as Jackson began to feel empowered by
                        > the film success
                        > to corrupt the source material.

                        My opinion is different on several grounds. As a movie by itself, divorced
                        from the source material, I liked #2 best; it was the most coherent. I
                        cannot think of any grounds on which it makes sense to say that #1 was "most
                        true to the source"; it's a little like discussing which malignant dictator
                        was the least genocidal. And it's not even true that Jackson felt more
                        empowered to corrupt as he went along. Movie #1 was plotted on a trajectory
                        to send Arwen to Helm's Deep in #2, but Jackson caved to perceived fan
                        pressure (though his substitution was just as corrupting of the source and
                        made less sense on its own terms). The original storyboards had Aragorn and
                        Sauron fighting in single combat in #3; this was, fortunately, dropped
                        before filming. What Jackson felt as he went along was more empowered to
                        defend his changes as actual improvements on the book, and not just things
                        he had to do for adaptation purposes.
                      • not_thou
                        ... There s a web page, apparently dating to early in 2006, that is devoted to the proposition that Jackson s movies borrowed some of Ted Nasmith s images
                        Message 11 of 17 , Sep 20, 2012
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                          --- "David Bratman" <dbratman@...> wrote:
                          >> As for other artists, I can't offhand thing of any
                          >> other Tolkien artists, fan or pro, whose work the
                          >> movies' visual style strongly resembles, except in
                          >> a general way. (Dramatic mountains are going to look
                          >> like dramatic mountains no matter who draws them;
                          >> pseudo-medieval traveling clothes all have a vague
                          >> resemblance; Tolkien's descriptions of Bag End or
                          >> Gollum are enough to guide many, though far from all,
                          >> artists in a specific general direction; etc.)


                          There's a web page, apparently dating to early in 2006, that is devoted to the proposition that Jackson's movies borrowed some of Ted Nasmith's images without credit:

                          http://tednasmith.narod.ru/

                          Some comment on the subject appears halfway down the following page (see the second part of question E) from a twelve-part discussion, later that year, of the "Designing Middle-earth" DVD feature:

                          http://users.bestweb.net/~jfgm/MovieDesignTTT/01ConceptDesigners.htm

                          And here is further attention to and doubt about the claim, at a little more length (if a bit self-contradictory on my part, I see!), from a different discussion in 2008:

                          http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=76579#76579

                          -Merlin
                        • IcelofAngeln
                          ... Little nuggets of gold in a matrix of iron pyrite (and a fair amount of mylar) It s absolutely amazing how much everything elevates in those moments where
                          Message 12 of 17 , Sep 20, 2012
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                            --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "David Bratman" <dbratman@...> wrote:

                            >
                            > That was true of the LOTR films as well. Chunks of dialogue actually from
                            > the book, as opposed to loosely paraphrased, stood out like little nuggets.


                            Little nuggets of gold in a matrix of iron pyrite (and a fair amount of mylar)

                            It's absolutely amazing how much everything elevates in those moments where PBJ actually give us Genuine Tolkien Text (tm).
                          • James Curcio
                            Yes, it can be quite noticeable
                            Message 13 of 17 , Sep 20, 2012
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                              Yes, it can be quite noticeable

                              On Sep 20, 2012 10:28 PM, "IcelofAngeln" <solicitr@...> wrote:
                               



                              --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "David Bratman" <dbratman@...> wrote:

                              >
                              > That was true of the LOTR films as well. Chunks of dialogue actually from
                              > the book, as opposed to loosely paraphrased, stood out like little nuggets.

                              Little nuggets of gold in a matrix of iron pyrite (and a fair amount of mylar)

                              It's absolutely amazing how much everything elevates in those moments where PBJ actually give us Genuine Tolkien Text (tm).

                            • lord_of_the_teleri
                              Hi everyone, I haven t had the time to have a closer look at the links provided for this discussion but off the top off my head Ted Nasmith images do very
                              Message 14 of 17 , Sep 24, 2012
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                                Hi everyone,

                                I haven't had the time to have a closer look at the links provided for this discussion but off the top off my head Ted Nasmith' images do very well come to mind - particularly the "parting shot" of Boromir's death with Aragorn embracing him; an almost 1-to-1 rendering by PJ.

                                It might be worth asking René van Rossenberg about this as he has, according to legend, sent a fairly huge parcel with basically every art publication available at the time to a certain director at the end of the nineties (the bulk being Lee, Howe, Nasmith). Not that he couldn't have found out from other sources but I do believe that the early stages of such a project may very well influence the overall outcome, even it it may take several years to finish.

                                I had been impressed with most advance material of the LotR film trilogy at the time but the trailers on the Hobbit, especially the most recent one, have been underwhelming; the aesthetics are too much LotR -2.0 to me. I may not be a fan of del Toro but he would have brought a fresh approach to this project which could have given it the edge that is not PJ, PJ, PJ.

                                The Hobbit isn't the prequel to the Lord of the Rings; the Lord of the Rings is a sequel to the Hobbit. Unfortunately, history has reversed their positions which will lead (and has already led) to many misunderstandings - including the upcoming Hobbit film trilogy.

                                Best wishes,

                                Marcel Aubron-Bülles
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