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Re: [mythsoc] The Hobbit film

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  • David Bratman
    This is a good summary of the information from LOTR s Appendices A and B regarding The Hobbit. Just a few things: 1) As John Rateliff notes, Fili and Kili s
    Message 1 of 6 , Sep 12, 2012
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      This is a good summary of the information from LOTR's Appendices A and B
      regarding The Hobbit. Just a few things:

      1) As John Rateliff notes, Fili and Kili's birth years are given in the
      House of Durin family tree in Appendix A, the same place as gives Gimli's
      (and those of Thorin, Balin, Dwalin, Oin, Gloin, and Dain). Kili, the
      younger of the two according to this tree, is 15 years older than Gimli.
      The Hobbit contradicts this, but in internal history I would take the family
      tree as definitive.

      2) If you're going to mention that Sauron was in Dol Guldur at the time, you
      should also mention that he was then known in the West as the Necromancer,
      and under that name is actually mentioned in The Hobbit, unlike Gimli,
      Aragorn, Arwen, Galadriel, Saruman, etc etc., none of whom Tolkien had
      invented yet.

      3) Which brings me to your edit about Legolas. Up to this point you've been
      writing "internal" history, that is, positing that Middle-earth existed, in
      the form that Tolkien left it. Now you switch to considering "external"
      history, that is, what Tolkien had written and had in mind at the time. I
      suggest using only one of these viewpoints at a time.

      As regards the questions in your separate post, I think your own choice of
      Gandalf's words for a signature block adequately responds to your question
      as to why Tolkien did not take these matters up.

      (Though I can't help but notice that you've used the very slightly different
      phrasing from the movie, rather than quoting directly from the book.
      (McKellen says "given to us"; Tolkien has "given us." Creeping
      Jacksonification!)

      David Bratman


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Westermeyer GS11 Paul W" <paul.westermeyer@...>
      To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2012 12:10 PM
      Subject: [mythsoc] The Hobbit film


      >A few weeks back I was discussing the upcoming film in the discussion
      >forums of Kenzer7 Company, a role-playing game company that produces the
      >_Knights of the Dinner Table_ magazine and the Hackmaster RPG. Those in the
      >discussion were casual fans of Tolkien so I wrote up the following guide
      >that appears below. I think I got the situation correct, but reviewing it
      >today it occurred to me that there are folks on this list who could likely
      >easily point out any mistakes I made. :) So, just wondering if any glaring
      >errors appear below. :)
      >
      > Hmmm... considering Gimli's age, I wonder if Tolkien gave Fili and Kili's
      > age. I wonder if those two 'young dwarves' were younger or older then
      > Gimli? I'll have to check my LOTR when I get home.
      >
      >
      > Paul Westermeyer
      > paul.westermeyer@...
      >
      > "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."
      > J. R. R. Tolkien, _The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring_
      >
      >
      > -------------------
      >
      > Just some basic info for folks interested in what is supposed to be the
      > situation when the Hobbit begins, according to Tolkien:
      >
      > The Hobbit takes place in T.A. 2941
      >
      > In Rivendell:
      > -Aragorn is 10 years old and lives in Rivendell with his mother Gilraen
      > under Elrond's fosterage.
      > -Arwen, over 2,700 years old, is living in Lorien with her grandparents,
      > Galadriel & Celeborn.
      >
      > In Rohan:
      > Fengel has been king of Rohan for over three decades. He is known for his
      > greed and love of gold. His son Thengel left Rohan because of
      > disagreements with his father, and is living with his wife's family in
      > Gondor instead. Fengel is Theoden's grandfather.
      >
      > Isenguard:
      > Saruman has lived in Orthanc for a couple hundred years, but he rules as
      > the Warden of the Tower under the Stewards of Gondor. He will not declare
      > himself 'independent' of Gondor until after the events of the Hobbit. He
      > has no orcs serving under him, yet, and remains friendly with the Ents &
      > Rohan.
      >
      > In the Shire:
      > Gorbadoc "Broadbelt" Brandybuck is currently head of the Brandybuck family
      > and Master of Buckland since 2910. Grandfather of Frodo Baggins and
      > great-grandfather of Merry Brandybuck.
      > Fortinbras Took II is the Thain of the Shire, having just taken over 2
      > years earlier from his father. He is Bilbo's cousin.
      >
      > In Gondor:
      > Turgon was the current Ruling Steward of Gondor. Gondor is currently
      > somewhat at peace, the continuous conflicts with Minas Morgul and Umbar
      > being at a low ebb. Turgon is Denethor's grandfather.
      >
      > In Mordor:
      > Sauron is not currently in Mordor (he is in southern Mirkwood, in Dol
      > Guldur). Minas Morgul is the capital of Mordor, ruled by the Witch-King.
      > Barad-Dur has not yet been raised.
      >
      > The Fellowship:
      > Aside from Aragorn, only Gandalf, Legolas and Gimli are alive. Gimli is a
      > young dwarf of 62. Most likely he was left behind by his father, in the
      > coal-mines of the Ered Luin - and likely angry at that. Legolas is a
      > mature elf, most likely he is over 3,000 years old at this point but his
      > exact age birth year is never given. He is never mentioned in The Hobbit,
      > but it is likely that he was in his father's halls during the events and
      > fought in the Battle of Five Armies. Indeed, Gloin's anger in the Council
      > of Rivendell concerning the elves' mercy to Gollum ('You were less kind to
      > me' or some similar statement) could be an indication that Gloin and
      > Legolas met during The Hobbit.
      >
      > edit: Legolas isn't mentioned in the Hobbit because he didn't exist as a
      > character at that time, he was invented later. When the Hobbit was
      > written, 'Legolas' was an elf in Gondolin.
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.orgYahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • David Bratman
      On this, I agree. You only get one chance to see a movie for the first time. This is why I m going to see it tomorrow morning, and I don t think those who
      Message 2 of 6 , Dec 13, 2012
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        On this, I agree.  You only get one chance to see a movie for the first time.  This is why I'm going to see it tomorrow morning, and I don't think those who can't do so, or who don't place that quite high a priority on it, should be required to hide out from the list to avoid spoilers.

        Any more than I think that those who dislike the result should be required to hide out, either.

        -----Original Message-----
        From: John Davis
        Sent: Dec 13, 2012 7:08 AM
        To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [mythsoc] The Hobbit film



        As is relatively common on other lists, I wonder if perhaps people can place spoiler alerts on emails discussing the film in any detail? Or at least for a while, until all who wish to see it might reasonably be expected to have seen it.
         
        John


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