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Re: [mythsoc] Special issue of l'Arc et le Heaume - Tolkien 1892 - 2012

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  • WendellWag@aol.com
    In a message dated 8/25/2012 9:42:25 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, drussy@yahoo.fr writes: its magazine L Arc et le Heaume The most interesting thing about this
    Message 1 of 6 , Aug 25, 2012
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      In a message dated 8/25/2012 9:42:25 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, drussy@... writes:
       its magazine L'Arc et le Heaume
       
      The most interesting thing about this for me was trying to figure out why the French Tolkien society would give its journal this name.  I could figure out that "l'arc" was "the bow" and "le heaume" was "the helmet," although it's not the most common way to say this.  The most common way to say "helmet" is "casque."  But then I wondered why they used this phrase, since, while bows and helmets appear in Tolkien, I didn't realize it was a standard phrase.  Some searching showed that in the Silmarillion Dor-Cúarthol is referred to as the "Land of Bow and Helm."  I'm not sure why they picked this particular name for their journal.  Did they pick "heaume" rather than "casque" because "helm" is the less common name for the object (rather than "helmet")?  Did they pick it because "heaume" is (presumably) cognate with "helm"?  Excuse my pickiness, but this is fascinating to me.
       
      Wendell Wagner
    • Jason Fisher
      Hi, Wendell, Great question! Fascinating to me too! While I think the best answer will probably come from Vivien (I hope he will chime in), I think you re
      Message 2 of 6 , Aug 25, 2012
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        Hi, Wendell,

        Great question! Fascinating to me too!

        While I think the best answer will probably come from Vivien (I hope he will chime in), I think you're getting warm when you say: "Did they pick 'heaume' rather than 'casque' because [...] 'heaume' is (presumably) cognate with 'helm'?"

        The French word heame is not an actual cognate, but rather a borrowing from the Germanic (F heaume < OF helme < Frankish *helm, OHG helm). Casque, on the other hand, is of purely Italic etymology (F casque < Sp casco < L quassāre). But since Tolkien would surely have preferred a purely Germanic word over a purely Italic one, heame is more suitable than casque. It is also, as you suggest, less mundane and more poetic than casque. Interestingly enough, the English helm comes straight from Old English helm, but English helmet was a re-borrowing from French (which, remember, had gotten the root word from Germanic in the first place). The –et suffix marked a diminutive, so OF healmet, helmet > MF helmet > E helmet. This would have happened sometime toward the end of the 15th century (according to the earliest citation in the OED). The same thing, by the way, happened with casque > casquet > E casket.

        Well, you did say you were interested. ;)

        Best,
        Jason


        From: "WendellWag@..." <WendellWag@...>
        To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2012 8:52 AM
        Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Special issue of l'Arc et le Heaume - Tolkien 1892 - 2012

         
        In a message dated 8/25/2012 9:42:25 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, drussy@... writes:
         its magazine L'Arc et le Heaume
         
        The most interesting thing about this for me was trying to figure out why the French Tolkien society would give its journal this name.  I could figure out that "l'arc" was "the bow" and "le heaume" was "the helmet," although it's not the most common way to say this.  The most common way to say "helmet" is "casque."  But then I wondered why they used this phrase, since, while bows and helmets appear in Tolkien, I didn't realize it was a standard phrase.  Some searching showed that in the Silmarillion Dor-Cúarthol is referred to as the "Land of Bow and Helm."  I'm not sure why they picked this particular name for their journal.  Did they pick "heaume" rather than "casque" because "helm" is the less common name for the object (rather than "helmet")?  Did they pick it because "heaume" is (presumably) cognate with "helm"?  Excuse my pickiness, but this is fascinating to me.
         
        Wendell Wagner


      • WendellWag@aol.com
        I suppose it depends on how you use the term cognate, but I would call helm and heaume cognate because they are both apparently derived from the same
        Message 3 of 6 , Aug 25, 2012
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          I suppose it depends on how you use the term "cognate," but I would call "helm" and "heaume" cognate because they are both apparently derived from the same (unattested, of course) Proto-Germanic term.  The ancestral form of "helm" went from Proto-Germanic (to later Germanic languages) to Anglo-Saxon to Modern English, while the ancestral form of "heaume" went from Proto-Germanic (to later Germanic languages) to Frankish to Old French to Modern French.  Neither language directly borrowed any of these forms from the other, but the ultimate source is the same.  I call such things cognates, but I can understand that other people wouldn't.  Thanks for the etymologies in any case.
           
          Wendell
           
          In a message dated 8/25/2012 1:46:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, visualweasel@... writes:
           

          Hi, Wendell,

          Great question! Fascinating to me too!

          While I think the best answer will probably come from Vivien (I hope he will chime in), I think you're getting warm when you say: "Did they pick 'heaume' rather than 'casque' because [...] 'heaume' is (presumably) cognate with 'helm'?"

          The French word heame is not an actual cognate, but rather a borrowing from the Germanic (F heaume < OF helme < Frankish *helm, OHG helm). Casque, on the other hand, is of purely Italic etymology (F casque < Sp casco < L quassāre). But since Tolkien would surely have preferred a purely Germanic word over a purely Italic one, heame is more suitable than casque. It is also, as you suggest, less mundane and more poetic than casque. Interestingly enough, the English helm comes straight from Old English helm, but English helmet was a re-borrowing from French (which, remember, had gotten the root word from Germanic in the first place). The –et suffix marked a diminutive, so OF healmet, helmet > MF helmet > E helmet. This would have happened sometime toward the end of the 15th century (according to the earliest citation in the OED). The same thing, by the way, happened with casque > casquet > E casket.

          Well, you did say you were interested. ;)

          Best,
          Jason


          From: "WendellWag@..." <WendellWag@...>
          To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2012 8:52 AM
          Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Special issue of l'Arc et le Heaume - Tolkien 1892 - 2012

           
          In a message dated 8/25/2012 9:42:25 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, drussy@... writes:
           its magazine L'Arc et le Heaume
           
          The most interesting thing about this for me was trying to figure out why the French Tolkien society would give its journal this name.  I could figure out that "l'arc" was "the bow" and "le heaume" was "the helmet," although it's not the most common way to say this.  The most common way to say "helmet" is "casque."  But then I wondered why they used this phrase, since, while bows and helmets appear in Tolkien, I didn't realize it was a standard phrase.  Some searching showed that in the Silmarillion Dor-Cúarthol is referred to as the "Land of Bow and Helm."  I'm not sure why they picked this particular name for their journal.  Did they pick "heaume" rather than "casque" because "helm" is the less common name for the object (rather than "helmet")?  Did they pick it because "heaume" is (presumably) cognate with "helm"?  Excuse my pickiness, but this is fascinating to me.
           
          Wendell Wagner


        • Jason Fisher
          Sure. Yours is the broader, more colloquial usage; mine, the narrower, more specific. See, for example, Trask s Dictionary of Historical and Comparative
          Message 4 of 6 , Aug 25, 2012
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            Sure. Yours is the broader, more colloquial usage; mine, the narrower, more specific. See, for example, Trask's Dictionary of Historical and Comparative Linguistics (Edinburgh University Press, 2000), which gives both definitions. Anyway, you're welcome! :)

            Jason


            From: "WendellWag@..." <WendellWag@...>
            To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2012 11:39 AM
            Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Special issue of l'Arc et le Heaume - Tolkien 1892 - 2012

             
            I suppose it depends on how you use the term "cognate," but I would call "helm" and "heaume" cognate because they are both apparently derived from the same (unattested, of course) Proto-Germanic term.  The ancestral form of "helm" went from Proto-Germanic (to later Germanic languages) to Anglo-Saxon to Modern English, while the ancestral form of "heaume" went from Proto-Germanic (to later Germanic languages) to Frankish to Old French to Modern French.  Neither language directly borrowed any of these forms from the other, but the ultimate source is the same.  I call such things cognates, but I can understand that other people wouldn't.  Thanks for the etymologies in any case.
             
            Wendell
             
            In a message dated 8/25/2012 1:46:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, visualweasel@... writes:
             
            Hi, Wendell,

            Great question! Fascinating to me too!

            While I think the best answer will probably come from Vivien (I hope he will chime in), I think you're getting warm when you say: "Did they pick 'heaume' rather than 'casque' because [...] 'heaume' is (presumably) cognate with 'helm'?"

            The French word heame is not an actual cognate, but rather a borrowing from the Germanic (F heaume < OF helme < Frankish *helm, OHG helm). Casque, on the other hand, is of purely Italic etymology (F casque < Sp casco < L quassāre). But since Tolkien would surely have preferred a purely Germanic word over a purely Italic one, heame is more suitable than casque. It is also, as you suggest, less mundane and more poetic than casque. Interestingly enough, the English helm comes straight from Old English helm, but English helmet was a re-borrowing from French (which, remember, had gotten the root word from Germanic in the first place). The –et suffix marked a diminutive, so OF healmet, helmet > MF helmet > E helmet. This would have happened sometime toward the end of the 15th century (according to the earliest citation in the OED). The same thing, by the way, happened with casque > casquet > E casket.

            Well, you did say you were interested. ;)

            Best,
            Jason


            From: "WendellWag@..." <WendellWag@...>
            To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2012 8:52 AM
            Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Special issue of l'Arc et le Heaume - Tolkien 1892 - 2012

             
            In a message dated 8/25/2012 9:42:25 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, drussy@... writes:
             its magazine L'Arc et le Heaume
             
            The most interesting thing about this for me was trying to figure out why the French Tolkien society would give its journal this name.  I could figure out that "l'arc" was "the bow" and "le heaume" was "the helmet," although it's not the most common way to say this.  The most common way to say "helmet" is "casque."  But then I wondered why they used this phrase, since, while bows and helmets appear in Tolkien, I didn't realize it was a standard phrase.  Some searching showed that in the Silmarillion Dor-Cúarthol is referred to as the "Land of Bow and Helm."  I'm not sure why they picked this particular name for their journal.  Did they pick "heaume" rather than "casque" because "helm" is the less common name for the object (rather than "helmet")?  Did they pick it because "heaume" is (presumably) cognate with "helm"?  Excuse my pickiness, but this is fascinating to me.
             
            Wendell Wagner




          • drussy
            I m not expert in etymology at all but, like says Jason, heaume is cognate with helm . And personnally, I find that in French, casque is too modern,
            Message 5 of 6 , Aug 26, 2012
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              I'm not expert in etymology at all but, like says Jason, 'heaume' is cognate with 'helm'. And personnally, I find that in French, 'casque' is too modern, associated with motorbike, whereas 'heaume' is more medieval ;)
              But the basic reason is that the official translation of The Land of Bow and Helm in the Silmarillion is le Pays de l'Arc et du Heaume, like you have guessed it. Why this name more than another, I don't know but I assume that is its originality was appreciate !

              Vivien

              --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, Jason Fisher <visualweasel@...> wrote:
              >
              > Sure. Yours is the broader, more colloquial usage; mine, the narrower, more specific. See, for example, Trask's Dictionary of Historical and Comparative Linguistics (Edinburgh University Press, 2000), which gives both definitions. Anyway, you're welcome! :)
              >
              > Jason
              >
              >
              >
              > >________________________________
              > > From: "WendellWag@..." <WendellWag@...>
              > >To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
              > >Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2012 11:39 AM
              > >Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Special issue of l'Arc et le Heaume - Tolkien 1892 - 2012
              > >
              > >
              > > 
              > >I suppose it depends on how you use the term "cognate," but I would call
              > "helm" and "heaume" cognate because they are both apparently derived from the
              > same (unattested, of course) Proto-Germanic term.  The ancestral form of
              > "helm" went from Proto-Germanic (to later Germanic languages) to Anglo-Saxon to
              > Modern English, while the ancestral form of "heaume" went from Proto-Germanic
              > (to later Germanic languages) to Frankish to Old French to Modern French. 
              > Neither language directly borrowed any of these forms from the other, but
              > the ultimate source is the same.  I call such things cognates, but I can
              > understand that other people wouldn't.  Thanks for the etymologies in any
              > case. 
              > >Wendell
              > > 
              > >In a message dated 8/25/2012 1:46:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
              > visualweasel@... writes:
              > > 
              > >>Hi, Wendell,
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>Great question! Fascinating to me too!
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>While I think the best answer will probably come from Vivien (I hope he will chime in), I think you're getting warm when you say: "Did they pick 'heaume' rather than 'casque' because [...] 'heaume' is (presumably) cognate with 'helm'?"
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>The French word heame is not an actual cognate, but rather a borrowing from the Germanic (F heaume < OF helme < Frankish *helm, OHG helm). Casque, on the other hand, is of purely Italic etymology (F casque < Sp casco < L quassāre). But since Tolkien would surely have preferred a purely Germanic word over a purely Italic one, heame is more suitable than casque. It is also, as you suggest, less mundane and more poetic than casque. Interestingly enough, the English helm comes straight from Old English helm, but English helmet was a re-borrowing from French (which, remember, had gotten the root word from Germanic in the first place). The â€"et suffix marked a diminutive, so OF healmet, helmet > MF helmet > E helmet. This would have happened sometime toward the end of the 15th century (according to the earliest citation in the OED). The same thing, by the way, happened with casque > casquet > E casket.
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>Well, you did say you were interested. ;)
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>Best,
              > >>Jason
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>>________________________________
              > >>> From: "WendellWag@..." <WendellWag@...>
              > >>>To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
              > >>>Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2012 8:52 AM
              > >>>Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Special issue of l'Arc et le Heaume - Tolkien 1892 - 2012
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>> 
              > >>>In a message dated 8/25/2012 9:42:25 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, drussy@... writes: its magazine L'Arc et le Heaume
              > >>> 
              > >>>The most interesting thing about this for me was trying to figure out why the French Tolkien society would give its journal this name.  I could figure out that "l'arc" was "the bow" and "le heaume" was "the helmet," although it's not the most common way to say this.  The most common way to say "helmet" is "casque."  But then I wondered why they used this phrase, since, while bows and helmets appear in Tolkien, I didn't realize it was a standard phrase.  Some searching showed that in the Silmarillion Dor-Cúarthol is referred to as the "Land of Bow and Helm."  I'm not sure why they picked this particular name for their journal.  Did they pick "heaume" rather than "casque" because "helm" is the less common name for the object (rather than "helmet")?  Did they pick it because "heaume" is (presumably) cognate with "helm"?  Excuse my pickiness, but this is fascinating to me.
              > >>> 
              > >>>Wendell Wagner
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
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