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Re: [mythsoc] A book on how Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings

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  • Doug Kane
    Great, I hope you enjoy it! And I definitely agree with John that there probably should be such a book. Hmmmm? Doug From: WendellWag@aol.com Sent: Saturday,
    Message 1 of 16 , May 5, 2012
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      Great, I hope you enjoy it!
       
      And I definitely agree with John that there probably should be such a book.  Hmmmm?
       
      Doug

      Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2012 7:00 PM
      Subject: Re: [mythsoc] A book on how Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings

       

      Thanks, Doug.  Incidentally, I just bought your book Arda Reconstructed.
       
      Wendell Wagner
       
      In a message dated 5/5/2012 9:56:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, dougkane@... writes:
       

      Honestly, I think the best answer it too suggest that they read the three and half volumes of HoMe dedicated to the history of The Lord of the Rings.  You could also suggest Wayne and Christina's LotR Reader's Companion, but I don't think that would help much.  Probably the LotR section of their Reader's Guide would be more helpful.  Other than that, I can think off hand of any specific book dedicated to how LotR was written.
       
      Now if they wanted to know how The Silmarillion was created, I would know just what to suggest.
       
      Doug Kane

      Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2012 6:20 PM
      Subject: [mythsoc] A book on how Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings

       

      I'd like to reply to the first post in this thread on a message board:
       
       
      It's someone who has a theory about how Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings.  It's clear that he hasn't actually read any scholarship on the subject.  I could, of course, simply tell him to read the entire twelve-volumes of The History of Middle-earth, but he'd just be annoyed by that.  Is there a single book that gives the history of how Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings?  I'm not sure to what extent this could be separated from the history of how he wrote The Silmarillion and The Hobbit.  Please, no false modesty.  If one of you wrote such a book about this subject, let me know.  I'd like to be able to explain to the guy how it would be useful to read the scholarship on the subject rather than just guessing on his own.
       
      Wendell Wagner

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    • Larry Swain
      How about Wayne and Christina s Companion and Guide? While not specifically on Tolkien s writing style or history of creation of LoTR, the Chronology in my
      Message 2 of 16 , May 5, 2012
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        How about Wayne and Christina's Companion and Guide?  While not specifically on Tolkien's writing style or history of creation of LoTR, the Chronology in my view gives one all that needs be known.
         
        Larry Swain
         
         
        On Sat, May 5, 2012, at 07:10 PM, John Rateliff wrote:
         

         

        On May 5, 2012, at 6:20 PM, WendellWag@... wrote:
        . . .  I could, of course, simply tell him to read the entire twelve-volumes of The History of Middle-earth, but he'd just be annoyed by that.  Is there a single book that gives the history of how Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings?  I'm not sure to what extent this could be separated from the history of how he wrote The Silmarillion and The Hobbit.  
        I don't know of any one book that does this. 
           If there is one,  I look forward to finding out about it.
               If there isn't, perhaps somebody shd write one.
         
        --JDR (who can point you towards that sort of thing re. THE HOBBIT but not LotR).

         

         
        -- 
        http://www.fastmail.fm - mmm... Fastmail...
        
      • Doug Kane
        Pssst, Larry, I already suggested the LotR section of the Reader s Guide portion of the Companion and Guide. From: Larry Swain Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2012
        Message 3 of 16 , May 5, 2012
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          Pssst, Larry, I already suggested the LotR section of the Reader's Guide portion of the Companion and Guide.

          Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2012 7:25 PM
          Subject: Re: [mythsoc] A book on how Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings

           

          How about Wayne and Christina's Companion and Guide?  While not specifically on Tolkien's writing style or history of creation of LoTR, the Chronology in my view gives one all that needs be known.
           
          Larry Swain
           
           
          On Sat, May 5, 2012, at 07:10 PM, John Rateliff wrote:
           

           

          On May 5, 2012, at 6:20 PM, WendellWag@... wrote:
          . . .  I could, of course, simply tell him to read the entire twelve-volumes of The History of Middle-earth, but he'd just be annoyed by that.  Is there a single book that gives the history of how Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings?  I'm not sure to what extent this could be separated from the history of how he wrote The Silmarillion and The Hobbit.  
          I don't know of any one book that does this. 
             If there is one,  I look forward to finding out about it.
                 If there isn't, perhaps somebody shd write one.
           
          --JDR (who can point you towards that sort of thing re. THE HOBBIT but not LotR).

           

           
          -- 
          http://www.fastmail.fm - mmm... Fastmail...
          

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        • scribbler@scribblerworks.us
          I threw my two cents into the discussion on the Straight Dope board. It seems to me that the Original Poster just hadn t taken the time to look further than
          Message 4 of 16 , May 5, 2012
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            I threw my two cents into the discussion on the Straight Dope board. It
            seems to me that the Original Poster just hadn't taken the time to look
            further than his own ideas.

            He seemed to have a fair grasp of genre conventions, but precious little
            sense of the genre history. I spent maybe 5 minutes figuring out WHAT
            genre writers were likely in print before JRRT began writing his early
            stuff during WW I, and came up with only William Morris and Lord Dunsany.
            The other notables post-date JRRT's beginning work.

            And I admit to being flabbergasted by the claim that JRRT wasn't
            interested in foreshadowing! Years and years ago, I made a couple
            beginning notes for a papre on that in LOTR, but never got far. Maybe the
            time has come for it?

            Sarah

            > Great, I hope you enjoy it!
            >
            > And I definitely agree with John that there probably should be such a
            > book. Hmmmm?
            >
            > Doug
            >
            >
            > From: WendellWag@...
            > Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2012 7:00 PM
            > To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [mythsoc] A book on how Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Thanks, Doug. Incidentally, I just bought your book Arda Reconstructed.
            >
            > Wendell Wagner
            >
            > In a message dated 5/5/2012 9:56:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
            > dougkane@... writes:
            >
            >
            > Honestly, I think the best answer it too suggest that they read the
            > three and half volumes of HoMe dedicated to the history of The Lord of
            > the Rings. You could also suggest Wayne and Christina's LotR Reader's
            > Companion, but I don't think that would help much. Probably the LotR
            > section of their Reader's Guide would be more helpful. Other than that,
            > I can think off hand of any specific book dedicated to how LotR was
            > written.
            >
            > Now if they wanted to know how The Silmarillion was created, I would
            > know just what to suggest.
            >
            > Doug Kane
            >
            >
            > From: WendellWag@...
            > Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2012 6:20 PM
            > To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [mythsoc] A book on how Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > I'd like to reply to the first post in this thread on a message board:
            >
            > http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=650518
            >
            > It's someone who has a theory about how Tolkien wrote The Lord of the
            > Rings. It's clear that he hasn't actually read any scholarship on the
            > subject. I could, of course, simply tell him to read the entire
            > twelve-volumes of The History of Middle-earth, but he'd just be annoyed
            > by that. Is there a single book that gives the history of how Tolkien
            > wrote The Lord of the Rings? I'm not sure to what extent this could be
            > separated from the history of how he wrote The Silmarillion and The
            > Hobbit. Please, no false modesty. If one of you wrote such a book
            > about this subject, let me know. I'd like to be able to explain to the
            > guy how it would be useful to read the scholarship on the subject rather
            > than just guessing on his own.
            >
            > Wendell Wagner
            >
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            > 05/05/12
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            >
            >
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            >
          • David Bratman
            That s a frustrating post to read, because the author is obviously intelligent and has what could be some potentially insightful things to say about narrative
            Message 5 of 16 , May 6, 2012
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              That's a frustrating post to read, because the author is obviously
              intelligent and has what could be some potentially insightful things to say
              about narrative viewpoint in LOTR, but it's all buried beneath this
              fantastic stuff about Tolkien's presumed intentions which has no authority
              at all, and merely suggests what would be in this person's mind if she(?)
              had been the one writing the story. It's particularly brazen to criticize
              Tolkien for abandoning intentions that you have no idea that he ever had in
              the first place. It's intriguing to suggest that the other hobbits were
              included for the deliberate, aforethought purpose of having backups around
              to cover the parts of the story Frodo couldn't narrate, but it doesn't fit
              in with anything we know from the drafts or Tolkien's work habits about how
              he constructed his story, and if Fatty was originally intended to cover the
              home front, then what about Odo? (A question which would probably be a
              complete non-sequitur to this person.) A point worth thought: if there's
              one interpretation of a work that shows it hanging together and making
              sense, and another interpretation which makes the author out to be an
              incompetent blunderer, which is more likely, or more useful for the reader?

              Apart from the documentary evidence in the History, the things this person
              most needs to read are not books, but a lot of articles, some of them rather
              hard to find. The papers by Paul Edmund Thomas and Christina Scull in the
              Blackwelder proceedings, though not addressing these specific points, would
              give a very clear idea of what kind of book Tolkien thought he was writing
              and how he went about doing it. But they're not likely to be easy to hand.

              On the question of whether Aragorn is a real, sympathetic and human
              character or merely a cardboard archetype designed to be espied from a
              distance, however, one should turn immediately to the Aragorn chapter in
              Paul Kocher's Master of Middle-earth, a book that's been around and easily
              available for forty years.
            • Larry Swain
              So you did. And I suggested the Chronology. Feel free to disagree. You are aware of course that it s a 2-volume work and suggesting one volume isn t the
              Message 6 of 16 , May 6, 2012
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                So you did.  And I suggested the Chronology.  Feel free to disagree.  You are aware of course that it's a 2-volume work and suggesting one volume isn't the same as the other.
                --
                Larry Swain
                 
                 
                On Sat, May 5, 2012, at 07:30 PM, Doug Kane wrote:
                 

                 

                Pssst, Larry, I already suggested the LotR section of the Reader's Guide portion of the Companion and Guide.
                 
                Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2012 7:25 PM
                Subject: Re: [mythsoc] A book on how Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings
                 
                 

                 

                How about Wayne and Christina's Companion and Guide?  While not specifically on Tolkien's writing style or history of creation of LoTR, the Chronology in my view gives one all that needs be known.
                 
                Larry Swain
                 
                 
                On Sat, May 5, 2012, at 07:10 PM, John Rateliff wrote:
                 

                 

                On May 5, 2012, at 6:20 PM, WendellWag@... wrote:
                . . .  I could, of course, simply tell him to read the entire twelve-volumes of The History of Middle-earth, but he'd just be annoyed by that.  Is there a single book that gives the history of how Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings?  I'm not sure to what extent this could be separated from the history of how he wrote The Silmarillion and The Hobbit.  
                I don't know of any one book that does this. 
                   If there is one,  I look forward to finding out about it.
                       If there isn't, perhaps somebody shd write one.
                 
                --JDR (who can point you towards that sort of thing re. THE HOBBIT but not LotR).

                 

                 
                 
                -- 
                http://www.fastmail.fm - mmm... Fastmail...
                

                 

                 

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              • Doug Kane
                Ah, I missed your reference to the Chronology. My apologies. From: Larry Swain Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2012 10:12 AM To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re:
                Message 7 of 16 , May 6, 2012
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                  Ah, I missed your reference to the Chronology.  My apologies. 
                  Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2012 10:12 AM
                  Subject: Re: [mythsoc] A book on how Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings

                   

                  So you did.  And I suggested the Chronology.  Feel free to disagree.  You are aware of course that it's a 2-volume work and suggesting one volume isn't the same as the other.
                  --
                  Larry Swain
                   
                   
                  On Sat, May 5, 2012, at 07:30 PM, Doug Kane wrote:
                   

                   

                  Pssst, Larry, I already suggested the LotR section of the Reader's Guide portion of the Companion and Guide.
                   
                  Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2012 7:25 PM
                  Subject: Re: [mythsoc] A book on how Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings
                   
                   

                   

                  How about Wayne and Christina's Companion and Guide?  While not specifically on Tolkien's writing style or history of creation of LoTR, the Chronology in my view gives one all that needs be known.
                   
                  Larry Swain
                   
                   
                  On Sat, May 5, 2012, at 07:10 PM, John Rateliff wrote:
                   

                   

                  On May 5, 2012, at 6:20 PM, WendellWag@... wrote:
                  . . .  I could, of course, simply tell him to read the entire twelve-volumes of The History of Middle-earth, but he'd just be annoyed by that.  Is there a single book that gives the history of how Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings?  I'm not sure to what extent this could be separated from the history of how he wrote The Silmarillion and The Hobbit.  
                  I don't know of any one book that does this. 
                     If there is one,  I look forward to finding out about it.
                         If there isn't, perhaps somebody shd write one.
                   
                  --JDR (who can point you towards that sort of thing re. THE HOBBIT but not LotR).

                   

                   
                  -- 
                  http://www.fastmail.fm - mmm... Fastmail...
                  

                   

                   

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                • Morgan Thomsen
                  Sounds like an interesting exchange! Where can it be found? (I tried to find a reference, without any success.) Thanks, Morgan
                  Message 8 of 16 , May 6, 2012
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                    Sounds like an interesting exchange! Where can it be found? (I tried to find a reference, without any success.)

                    Thanks,

                    Morgan

                    On May 6, 2012 04:14 "John Rateliff" <sacnoth@...> wrote:


                    Anyone else here remember the amusing little exchange between JRRT and
                    Ch. Moorman? Moorman had a theory that Malory never had the chance to
                    revise his work and asked Tolkien if the same was true of him, only to
                    be told otherwise in no uncertain terms.

                    --JDR


                  • Larry Swain
                    No problem. BTW, I was just at the board again, and the OP in the thread claims that any author who stops the flow of the plot in order to engage in
                    Message 9 of 16 , May 6, 2012
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                      No problem.  BTW, I was just at the board again, and the OP in the thread claims that any author who stops the flow of the plot in order to engage in exposition has failed as an author.  I find that comment very very telling.
                       
                      Now that I think about it, could someone who hasn't really used The Companion and Guide, and who hasn't read much if any other Tolkien scholarship, use either volume independently with any degree of success?  I'm beginning to think we need to make a quick reading list for the OP. 
                      --
                      Larry Swain
                       
                       
                      On Sun, May 6, 2012, at 10:36 AM, Doug Kane wrote:
                       

                       

                      Ah, I missed your reference to the Chronology.  My apologies. 
                      Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2012 10:12 AM
                      Subject: Re: [mythsoc] A book on how Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings
                       
                       

                       

                      So you did.  And I suggested the Chronology.  Feel free to disagree.  You are aware of course that it's a 2-volume work and suggesting one volume isn't the same as the other.
                      --
                      Larry Swain
                       
                       
                      On Sat, May 5, 2012, at 07:30 PM, Doug Kane wrote:
                       

                       

                      Pssst, Larry, I already suggested the LotR section of the Reader's Guide portion of the Companion and Guide.
                       
                      Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2012 7:25 PM
                      Subject: Re: [mythsoc] A book on how Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings
                       
                       

                       

                      How about Wayne and Christina's Companion and Guide?  While not specifically on Tolkien's writing style or history of creation of LoTR, the Chronology in my view gives one all that needs be known.
                       
                      Larry Swain
                       
                       
                      On Sat, May 5, 2012, at 07:10 PM, John Rateliff wrote:
                       

                       

                      On May 5, 2012, at 6:20 PM, WendellWag@... wrote:
                      . . .  I could, of course, simply tell him to read the entire twelve-volumes of The History of Middle-earth, but he'd just be annoyed by that.  Is there a single book that gives the history of how Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings?  I'm not sure to what extent this could be separated from the history of how he wrote The Silmarillion and The Hobbit.  
                      I don't know of any one book that does this. 
                         If there is one,  I look forward to finding out about it.
                             If there isn't, perhaps somebody shd write one.
                       
                      --JDR (who can point you towards that sort of thing re. THE HOBBIT but not LotR).

                       

                       
                       
                      -- 
                      http://www.fastmail.fm - mmm... Fastmail...
                      

                       

                       

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                    • Cristina
                      Some of the letters do give snippets of insights on JRRT s writing process.
                      Message 10 of 16 , May 7, 2012
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                        Some of the letters do give snippets of insights on JRRT's writing process.

                        --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, Larry Swain <theswain@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > No problem. BTW, I was just at the board again, and the OP in
                        > the thread claims that any author who stops the flow of the plot
                        > in order to engage in exposition has failed as an author. I find
                        > that comment very very telling.
                        >
                        > Now that I think about it, could someone who hasn't really used
                        > The Companion and Guide, and who hasn't read much if any other
                        > Tolkien scholarship, use either volume independently with any
                        > degree of success? I'm beginning to think we need to make a
                        > quick reading list for the OP.
                        > --
                        > Larry Swain
                        > [1]theswain@...
                        >
                        >
                        > On Sun, May 6, 2012, at 10:36 AM, Doug Kane wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Ah, I missed your reference to the Chronology. My apologies.
                        > From: [2]Larry Swain
                        > Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2012 10:12 AM
                        > To: [3]mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [mythsoc] A book on how Tolkien wrote The Lord of
                        > the Rings
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > So you did. And I suggested the Chronology. Feel free to
                        > disagree. You are aware of course that it's a 2-volume work and
                        > suggesting one volume isn't the same as the other.
                        > --
                        > Larry Swain
                        > [4]theswain@...
                        >
                        >
                        > On Sat, May 5, 2012, at 07:30 PM, Doug Kane wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Pssst, Larry, I already suggested the LotR section of the
                        > Reader's Guide portion of the Companion and Guide.
                        >
                        > From: [5]Larry Swain
                        > Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2012 7:25 PM
                        > To: [6]mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [mythsoc] A book on how Tolkien wrote The Lord of
                        > the Rings
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > How about Wayne and Christina's Companion and Guide? While not
                        > specifically on Tolkien's writing style or history of creation of
                        > LoTR, the Chronology in my view gives one all that needs be
                        > known.
                        >
                        > Larry Swain
                        > [7]theswain@...
                        >
                        >
                        > On Sat, May 5, 2012, at 07:10 PM, John Rateliff wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > On May 5, 2012, at 6:20 PM, [8]WendellWag@... wrote:
                        >
                        > . . . I could, of course, simply tell him to read the entire
                        > twelve-volumes of The History of Middle-earth, but he'd just be
                        > annoyed by that. Is there a single book that gives the history
                        > of how Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings? I'm not sure to what
                        > extent this could be separated from the history of how he
                        > wrote The Silmarillion and The Hobbit.
                        >
                        > I don't know of any one book that does this.
                        > If there is one, I look forward to finding out about it.
                        > If there isn't, perhaps somebody shd write one.
                        >
                        > --JDR (who can point you towards that sort of thing re. THE
                        > HOBBIT but not LotR).
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --
                        > http://www.fastmail.fm - mmm... Fastmail...
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > No virus found in this message.
                        > Checked by AVG - [9]www.avg.com
                        > Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2425/4980 - Release Date:
                        > 05/05/12
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                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --
                        > http://www.fastmail.fm - mmm... Fastmail...
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > No virus found in this message.
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                        > 05/06/12
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                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > References
                        >
                        > 1. mailto:theswain@...
                        > 2. mailto:theswain@...
                        > 3. mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                        > 4. mailto:theswain@...
                        > 5. mailto:theswain@...
                        > 6. mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                        > 7. mailto:theswain@...
                        > 8. mailto:WendellWag@...
                        > 9. http://www.avg.com/
                        > 10. http://www.avg.com/
                        > 11. mailto:dougkane@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5Bmythsoc%5D%20A%20book%20on%20how%20Tolkien%20wrote%20The%20Lord%20of%20the%20Rings
                        > 12. mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5Bmythsoc%5D%20A%20book%20on%20how%20Tolkien%20wrote%20The%20Lord%20of%20the%20Rings
                        > 13. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mythsoc/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJva3U0cW00BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQ1NzM3BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTAyMDIyNwRtc2dJZAMyMzA4MgRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzEzMzYzMjU4MDg-?act=reply&messageNum=23082
                        > 14. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mythsoc/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJjdTI0YWlqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQ1NzM3BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTAyMDIyNwRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNudHBjBHN0aW1lAzEzMzYzMjU4MDg-
                        > 15. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mythsoc/message/23071;_ylc=X3oDMTM0aWhxa20yBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQ1NzM3BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTAyMDIyNwRtc2dJZAMyMzA4MgRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzEzMzYzMjU4MDgEdHBjSWQDMjMwNzE-
                        > 16. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mythsoc;_ylc=X3oDMTJjcWV2NmEzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQ1NzM3BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTAyMDIyNwRzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzEzMzYzMjU4MDg-
                        > 17. http://www.mythsoc.org/
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                      • WendellWag@aol.com
                        Thanks to everyone who replied to my question about how to explain to someone with a theory of how Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings by pointing them to the
                        Message 11 of 16 , May 12, 2012
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                          Thanks to everyone who replied to my question about how to explain to someone with a theory of how Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings by pointing them to the scholarship on the subject.  Thanks especially to Sarah Beach for registering for the message board in order to post some information about this subject.  As happens far too often when you explain to someone that they don't know enough about the subject that they are pontificating about, the person who started the thread just disappeared after enough people told him that he was wrong about much that he wrote about.
                           
                          Wendell Wagner
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