Re: [mythsoc] Source for alleged Tolkien quotation?
- It sounds v. unlike Tolkien, and I wd treat it as purely apocryphal until shown good evidence to the contrary.Mostly particularly because it expresses a point of view that I don't think Tolkien shared. Ezra Pound, yes; JRRT, no, so far as I know.--John R.On Jan 29, 2012, at 4:46 PM, Troels Forchhammer wrote:
On Mon, Jan 30, 2012, at 01:07 PM, John Rateliff wrote:It sounds v. unlike Tolkien, and I wd treat it as purely apocryphal until shown good evidence to the contrary.Mostly particularly because it expresses a point of view that I don't think Tolkien shared. Ezra Pound, yes; JRRT, no, so far as I know.--John R.On Jan 29, 2012, at 4:46 PM, Troels Forchhammer wrote:I agree with John, here. The apocryphal quote seems pacifist and at least anti-war to me. But Tolkien was neither of those things, and we need only look at his creative output or his letters specifically to his sons during WWII to see what he thought of war. I doubt he'd paint either himself or his friends as all orcs anymore than both sides in the War of the Rings are all orcs.Just my .1/2Larry Swain
-- http://www.fastmail.fm - Same, same, but different...
>> On Jan 29, 2012, at 4:46 PM, Troels Forchhammer wrote:...
>>> The statement in question is "We were all orcs in the Great War"Greetings:
>>> While Tolkien is known to have said that there were orcs on both
>>> sides (e.g. _Letters_ no. 71 to Christopher Tolkien in May 1944), but
>>> the statement that they were _all_ orcs would seem to contradict his
>>> statements that there were also good people on both sides (as well as
>>> include himself among the orcs) - while I obviously cannot be sure,
>>> this doesn't strike me as something Tolkien would be likely to say.
>>> Can anyone here identify where this comes from? If this group also
>>> draws a blank, I am inclined to believe that it is a mistake.
John Garth's "Tolkien and the Great War" certainly covers topics
directly related to the alleged quotation. It is an indirect argument,
from silence, to be sure; nevertheless, had the quotation been genuine
one would certainly expect Garth to have at least mentioned it. He did not.
Garth does quote Letter 71, in T&TGW, pg. 219 that "in real life [Orcs]
are on both sides" -- but also quotes Tolkien, that both sides include
"plain naturally honest men, and angels" as well.
I would add as someone who has experienced combat, that characterizing
all of ones comrades as essentially evil is a betrayal. It dishonors not
only ones own service, but that of those who did not come home. (That is
why I despise John Kerry even more than Jane Fonda, when I bother to
think about either of them, which is seldom.) What did Tolkien think of
the TCBSers Smith and Gilson? Orcs?
I find the body of JRRT's comments on the Great War, and war in general,
so at variance with the idea that "we were all Orcs" that if someone
came up with a specific reference I would drive at my next opportunity
to the Wade Center and look for it.
I wouldn't find it, I am all but certain.
former sergeant, US Army Vietnam