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Re : [mythsoc] Created Languages

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  • Scott Hubbard
    I agree. You can tell that on Star Wars, for example, the alien languages are really just English with different words. The pauses, syntactical appearance of
    Message 1 of 14 , Aug 25, 2011
      I agree. You can tell that on Star Wars, for example, the "alien" languages are really just English with different words. The pauses, syntactical appearance of proper nouns, and emphases give this away without having to know what the made-up words themselves are. Korean is much more different than these languages from another galaxy.
       


      De : "WendellWag@..." <WendellWag@...>
      À : mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
      Envoyé le : Jeudi 25 Août 2011 5h54
      Objet : Re: [mythsoc] Created Languages

       
      In a message dated 8/25/2011 4:45:07 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, asthiggins@... writes:
      There is also Arika Orient's recent book on art languages - In the Land of Invented Languages has a good overview
       
      It's Arika Okrent.  Do you have some sort of automatic spelling-corrector in your iPad?
       
      I'm not sure any of the books mentioned teach anything useful about how to create invented languages.  They have lots of personal stories about the inventors of the languages and about the history of the creation of the languages, but they don't go into any real detail about how to invent them.  I don't think that there's anywhere to learn about this except from standard textbooks on linguistics.  You can learn there about the diversity of forms of languages, all the ways that languages differ in phonology, in syntax, in morphology, in semantics, etc.  Most creators of invented languages don't actually know much about linguistics and don't understand just how different from the language (or languages) they grew up with some languages can be.  They thus produce languages that aren't really that different from their own.  This is why most invented languages go nowhere beyond the self-published book that the inventor puts out about how wonderful the new language is.
       
      Wendell Wagner


    • scribbler@scribblerworks.us
      Whoa! What????? Excuse me, but I hope to God that is approved by the authors, because it is part of ML agreements that after the publication in ML, ALL RIGHTS
      Message 2 of 14 , Aug 25, 2011
        Whoa! What?????

        Excuse me, but I hope to God that is approved by the authors, because it
        is part of ML agreements that after the publication in ML, ALL RIGHTS
        REVERT TO THE AUTHORS, and if ML articles are being sold on Amazon without
        their permissions IT IS COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT!!! (Not to say a matter of
        cheating authors out of money!)

        For TEN DOLLARS????

        Sarah


        >
        >
        > --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Higgins <asthiggins@...> wrote:
        >>
        >> There is this interesting website which I have not explored enough
        >> http://www.zompist.com/kit.html
        >
        > Yes, the associated book "The Language Construction Kit" by Marc
        > Rosenfelder got a favorable review from, IIRC, Harley Sims in Mythlore a
        > while back. He certainly wrote an unfavorable review of Okrent's book in
        > Mythlore, in Nov. 2010. (I myself liked Okrent's book a lot.)
        >
        > BTW, I was surprised to find that Amazon sells Mythlore articles for
        > download at $10.00 a pop.
        > http://www.amazon.com/Land-Invented-Languages-Esperanto-Language/dp/B004EHVYEG
        >
        > Considering that you can buy an individual issue from mythsoc for $15 and
        > a yearly subscription for $33 ($25 for mythsoc members), that seems
        > ridiculously overpriced. Is there any possibility of making past issues of
        > Mythlore available online on the mythsoc site or getting them onto JSTOR?
        >
        > -- Ernie
        >
        >
      • Alana Joli Abbott
        Amazon does this for a bunch of stuff available from Gale products, also -- basically, if it s available through Gale s Power Search or Highbeam Research, it
        Message 3 of 14 , Aug 25, 2011
          Amazon does this for a bunch of stuff available from Gale products, also -- basically, if it's available through Gale's Power Search or Highbeam Research, it can end up at Amazon for that per article price. Most of the reference books like Contemporary Authors are up for that same rate, too.

          If Mythlore gets syndicated through any of those digital databases, that's probably how Amazon's getting the license.

          -Alana

          On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 11:45 AM, <scribbler@...> wrote:
           

          Whoa! What?????

          Excuse me, but I hope to God that is approved by the authors, because it
          is part of ML agreements that after the publication in ML, ALL RIGHTS
          REVERT TO THE AUTHORS, and if ML articles are being sold on Amazon without
          their permissions IT IS COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT!!! (Not to say a matter of
          cheating authors out of money!)

          For TEN DOLLARS????

          Sarah



          >
          >
          > --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Higgins <asthiggins@...> wrote:
          >>
          >> There is this interesting website which I have not explored enough
          >> http://www.zompist.com/kit.html
          >
          > Yes, the associated book "The Language Construction Kit" by Marc
          > Rosenfelder got a favorable review from, IIRC, Harley Sims in Mythlore a
          > while back. He certainly wrote an unfavorable review of Okrent's book in
          > Mythlore, in Nov. 2010. (I myself liked Okrent's book a lot.)
          >
          > BTW, I was surprised to find that Amazon sells Mythlore articles for
          > download at $10.00 a pop.
          > http://www.amazon.com/Land-Invented-Languages-Esperanto-Language/dp/B004EHVYEG
          >
          > Considering that you can buy an individual issue from mythsoc for $15 and
          > a yearly subscription for $33 ($25 for mythsoc members), that seems
          > ridiculously overpriced. Is there any possibility of making past issues of
          > Mythlore available online on the mythsoc site or getting them onto JSTOR?
          >
          > -- Ernie
          >
          >




          --
          Alana Joli Abbott, Freelance Writer and Editor (http://www.virgilandbeatrice.com)
          Author of Into the Reach and Departure, available at http://tinyurl.com/aja-ebooks
          Columnist, "The Town with Five Main Streets," http://branford.patch.com/columns/the-town-with-five-main-streets

          --
          For updates on my writings, join my mailing list at http://groups.google.com/group/alanajoliabbottfans

        • scribbler@scribblerworks.us
          I checked out the Amazon link after I reacted. It SAYS reprinted by permission - so I m going to assume that it was Harley himself that put it up there. But
          Message 4 of 14 , Aug 25, 2011
            I checked out the Amazon link after I reacted. It SAYS reprinted by
            permission - so I'm going to assume that it was Harley himself that put it
            up there.

            But still.... $10.00 for a 5 page paper? Wow.

            (And here I am, posting on my own website, pieces of my non-Tolkien
            scholarship for free!)

            Sarah


            > Whoa! What?????
            >
            > Excuse me, but I hope to God that is approved by the authors, because it
            > is part of ML agreements that after the publication in ML, ALL RIGHTS
            > REVERT TO THE AUTHORS, and if ML articles are being sold on Amazon without
            > their permissions IT IS COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT!!! (Not to say a matter of
            > cheating authors out of money!)
            >
            > For TEN DOLLARS????
            >
            > Sarah
            >
            >
            >>
            >>
            >> --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Higgins <asthiggins@...> wrote:
            >>>
            >>> There is this interesting website which I have not explored enough
            >>> http://www.zompist.com/kit.html
            >>
            >> Yes, the associated book "The Language Construction Kit" by Marc
            >> Rosenfelder got a favorable review from, IIRC, Harley Sims in Mythlore a
            >> while back. He certainly wrote an unfavorable review of Okrent's book in
            >> Mythlore, in Nov. 2010. (I myself liked Okrent's book a lot.)
            >>
            >> BTW, I was surprised to find that Amazon sells Mythlore articles for
            >> download at $10.00 a pop.
            >> http://www.amazon.com/Land-Invented-Languages-Esperanto-Language/dp/B004EHVYEG
            >>
            >> Considering that you can buy an individual issue from mythsoc for $15
            >> and
            >> a yearly subscription for $33 ($25 for mythsoc members), that seems
            >> ridiculously overpriced. Is there any possibility of making past issues
            >> of
            >> Mythlore available online on the mythsoc site or getting them onto
            >> JSTOR?
            >>
            >> -- Ernie
            >>
            >>
            >
            >
            >
          • Croft, Janet B.
            That s exactly it. I don t think we get many sales that way - Lisa would know - but it s part of our agreement with Gale that they can sell copies of articles
            Message 5 of 14 , Aug 25, 2011

              That’s exactly it. I don’t think we get many sales that way – Lisa would know – but it’s part of our agreement with Gale that they can sell copies of articles through Amazon and other vendors and we get our cut. This is spelled out in Mythlore’s contract with its authors, or at least it has been since I became editor.

               

              Mythlore currently has agreements with Gale, Ebsco, and ProQuest and appears in several of their library subscription databases and their subcontracted products (2002 on in Gale’s Expanded Academic ASAP, 2006 on in ProQuest’s Literature Online, and I forget what it is in EBSCO – probably 2002.). ProQuest has a new product for individual consumers which will be out this fall, and we’ve been invited to join but have not decided yet. We have not been invited by JSTOR or Project MUSE yet, but I’m hopeful. We continue to look at ways to offer Mythlore electronically, but in the meantime, you can always contact me directly if you need a scan of an article for scholarly purposes – don’t pay that ridiculous Amazon price!

               

              These companies have been very good about contacting us when they get other requested uses of our articles, like reprinting them in an critical anthology. In those cases I pass the decision on to the author.

               

              Janet Brennan Croft

              Associate Professor
              Head of Access Services
              University of Oklahoma Libraries
              Bizzell 104NW
              Norman OK 73019
              405-325-1918
              Fax 405-325-7618
              jbcroft@...
              http://ou.academia.edu/JanetCroft/CurriculumVitae
              http://libraries.ou.edu/
              Editor of Mythlore
              http://www.mythsoc.org/mythlore.html

              Book Review Editor of Oklahoma Librarian http://www.oklibs.org/oklibrarian/current/index.html

              "Humans need fantasy to be human. To be the place where the rising ape meets the falling angel." -Terry Pratchett

               

              From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Alana Joli Abbott
              Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 10:54 AM
              To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Created Languages

               

               

              Amazon does this for a bunch of stuff available from Gale products, also -- basically, if it's available through Gale's Power Search or Highbeam Research, it can end up at Amazon for that per article price. Most of the reference books like Contemporary Authors are up for that same rate, too.

               

              If Mythlore gets syndicated through any of those digital databases, that's probably how Amazon's getting the license.

               

              -Alana

              On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 11:45 AM, <scribbler@...> wrote:

               

              Whoa! What?????

              Excuse me, but I hope to God that is approved by the authors, because it
              is part of ML agreements that after the publication in ML, ALL RIGHTS
              REVERT TO THE AUTHORS, and if ML articles are being sold on Amazon without
              their permissions IT IS COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT!!! (Not to say a matter of
              cheating authors out of money!)

              For TEN DOLLARS????

              Sarah



              >
              >
              > --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Higgins <asthiggins@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> There is this interesting website which I have not explored enough
              >> http://www.zompist.com/kit.html
              >
              > Yes, the associated book "The Language Construction Kit" by Marc
              > Rosenfelder got a favorable review from, IIRC, Harley Sims in Mythlore a
              > while back. He certainly wrote an unfavorable review of Okrent's book in
              > Mythlore, in Nov. 2010. (I myself liked Okrent's book a lot.)
              >
              > BTW, I was surprised to find that Amazon sells Mythlore articles for
              > download at $10.00 a pop.
              > http://www.amazon.com/Land-Invented-Languages-Esperanto-Language/dp/B004EHVYEG
              >
              > Considering that you can buy an individual issue from mythsoc for $15 and
              > a yearly subscription for $33 ($25 for mythsoc members), that seems
              > ridiculously overpriced. Is there any possibility of making past issues of
              > Mythlore available online on the mythsoc site or getting them onto JSTOR?
              >
              > -- Ernie
              >
              >



               

              --
              Alana Joli Abbott, Freelance Writer and Editor (http://www.virgilandbeatrice.com)

              Author of Into the Reach and Departure, available at http://tinyurl.com/aja-ebooks
              Columnist, "The Town with Five Main Streets," http://branford.patch.com/columns/the-town-with-five-main-streets

              --
              For updates on my writings, join my mailing list at http://groups.google.com/group/alanajoliabbottfans

               

            • David Bratman
              ... Wait a minute. I think you re confusing two different purposes of invented languages here. The self-published ones that proclaim their wonderfulness are
              Message 6 of 14 , Aug 25, 2011
                WendellWag@... wrote:

                >Most
                >creators of invented languages don't actually know much about linguistics and
                >don't understand just how different from the language (or languages) they
                >grew up with some languages can be. They thus produce languages that
                >aren't really that different from their own. This is why most invented
                >languages go nowhere beyond the self-published book that the inventor puts out
                >about how wonderful the new language is.

                Wait a minute. I think you're confusing two different purposes of invented languages here. The self-published ones that proclaim their wonderfulness are intended as practical universal languages, such as Esperanto. In these, similarity to existing languages and ease of use is a virtue, as the purpose is to create a common mode of communication that's privileged to none.

                It's literary languages, such as Tolkien's, where aesthetic virtues are paramount and striking differences from common languages are sought, and most inventors of full-scale literary languages are well-versed in these linguistic matters. The inventor of Klingon deliberately sought out the most exotic, from an English-speaker's point of view, characteristics from a wide variety of languages and put them all in one package for the most alien effect he could get.

                Literary languages in turn are not to be confused with the efforts of authors who make up a few words to sprinkle through their novels for the effect of an invented language that has no further body. Some of these authors have a talent for well-wrought names (Dunsany is a master in this respect), but many are very weak.
              • Alana Joli Abbott
                FWIW, most public libraries have access to one of those three databases for *free* for library patrons. So you can always check to see if they re available
                Message 7 of 14 , Aug 25, 2011
                  FWIW, most public libraries have access to one of those three databases for free for library patrons. So you can always check to see if they're available through your library before paying amazon as well.

                  -Alana

                  On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 12:09 PM, Croft, Janet B. <jbcroft@...> wrote:
                   

                  That’s exactly it. I don’t think we get many sales that way – Lisa would know – but it’s part of our agreement with Gale that they can sell copies of articles through Amazon and other vendors and we get our cut. This is spelled out in Mythlore’s contract with its authors, or at least it has been since I became editor.

                   

                  Mythlore currently has agreements with Gale, Ebsco, and ProQuest and appears in several of their library subscription databases and their subcontracted products (2002 on in Gale’s Expanded Academic ASAP, 2006 on in ProQuest’s Literature Online, and I forget what it is in EBSCO – probably 2002.). ProQuest has a new product for individual consumers which will be out this fall, and we’ve been invited to join but have not decided yet. We have not been invited by JSTOR or Project MUSE yet, but I’m hopeful. We continue to look at ways to offer Mythlore electronically, but in the meantime, you can always contact me directly if you need a scan of an article for scholarly purposes – don’t pay that ridiculous Amazon price!

                   

                  These companies have been very good about contacting us when they get other requested uses of our articles, like reprinting them in an critical anthology. In those cases I pass the decision on to the author.

                   

                  Janet Brennan Croft

                  Associate Professor
                  Head of Access Services
                  University of Oklahoma Libraries
                  Bizzell 104NW
                  Norman OK 73019
                  405-325-1918
                  Fax 405-325-7618
                  jbcroft@...
                  http://ou.academia.edu/JanetCroft/CurriculumVitae
                  http://libraries.ou.edu/
                  Editor of Mythlore
                  http://www.mythsoc.org/mythlore.html

                  Book Review Editor of Oklahoma Librarian http://www.oklibs.org/oklibrarian/current/index.html

                  "Humans need fantasy to be human. To be the place where the rising ape meets the falling angel." -Terry Pratchett

                   

                  From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Alana Joli Abbott
                  Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 10:54 AM
                  To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Created Languages

                   

                   

                  Amazon does this for a bunch of stuff available from Gale products, also -- basically, if it's available through Gale's Power Search or Highbeam Research, it can end up at Amazon for that per article price. Most of the reference books like Contemporary Authors are up for that same rate, too.

                   

                  If Mythlore gets syndicated through any of those digital databases, that's probably how Amazon's getting the license.

                   

                  -Alana

                  On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 11:45 AM, <scribbler@...> wrote:

                   

                  Whoa! What?????

                  Excuse me, but I hope to God that is approved by the authors, because it
                  is part of ML agreements that after the publication in ML, ALL RIGHTS
                  REVERT TO THE AUTHORS, and if ML articles are being sold on Amazon without
                  their permissions IT IS COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT!!! (Not to say a matter of
                  cheating authors out of money!)

                  For TEN DOLLARS????

                  Sarah



                  >
                  >
                  > --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Higgins <asthiggins@...> wrote:
                  >>
                  >> There is this interesting website which I have not explored enough
                  >> http://www.zompist.com/kit.html
                  >
                  > Yes, the associated book "The Language Construction Kit" by Marc
                  > Rosenfelder got a favorable review from, IIRC, Harley Sims in Mythlore a
                  > while back. He certainly wrote an unfavorable review of Okrent's book in
                  > Mythlore, in Nov. 2010. (I myself liked Okrent's book a lot.)
                  >
                  > BTW, I was surprised to find that Amazon sells Mythlore articles for
                  > download at $10.00 a pop.
                  > http://www.amazon.com/Land-Invented-Languages-Esperanto-Language/dp/B004EHVYEG
                  >
                  > Considering that you can buy an individual issue from mythsoc for $15 and
                  > a yearly subscription for $33 ($25 for mythsoc members), that seems
                  > ridiculously overpriced. Is there any possibility of making past issues of
                  > Mythlore available online on the mythsoc site or getting them onto JSTOR?
                  >
                  > -- Ernie
                  >
                  >



                   

                  --

                  Alana Joli Abbott, Freelance Writer and Editor (http://www.virgilandbeatrice.com)

                  Author of Into the Reach and Departure, available at http://tinyurl.com/aja-ebooks
                  Columnist, "The Town with Five Main Streets," http://branford.patch.com/columns/the-town-with-five-main-streets

                  --
                  For updates on my writings, join my mailing list at http://groups.google.com/group/alanajoliabbottfans

                   




                  --
                  Alana Joli Abbott, Freelance Writer and Editor (http://www.virgilandbeatrice.com)
                  Author of Into the Reach and Departure, available at http://tinyurl.com/aja-ebooks
                  Columnist, "The Town with Five Main Streets," http://branford.patch.com/columns/the-town-with-five-main-streets

                  --
                  For updates on my writings, join my mailing list at http://groups.google.com/group/alanajoliabbottfans

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