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Re: [mythsoc] Fairy Tales

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  • John Rateliff
    Actually, this was only one theory, put forward by a bee-in-her-bonnet scholar* who thought every nursery rhyme was a coded critique of the Tudors. The
    Message 1 of 17 , Jun 13, 2011
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      Actually, this was only one theory, put forward by a bee-in-her-bonnet scholar* who thought every nursery rhyme was a coded critique of the Tudors. The Baring-Goulds do a fairly searing critique of her work in their wonderful ANNOTATED MOTHER GOOSE [1962], which I highly recommend.
          Don't know about THE TWELVE DAYS, but I wdn't have thought one wd have to smuggle Xian doctrine into what is after all a Christmas carol.
         Afraid I don't know Tatar's work; I'll be on the look-out for that.

      --JDR

      *one Katherine Elwes Thomas, in her THE REAL PERSONAGES OF MOTHER GOOSE [1930]

      On Jun 13, 2011, at 8:40 AM, Christopher Couch wrote:
      This might be an addendum, but nursery rhymes were religious and political messages wrapped in metaphor.  An example is "Four and twenty blackbirds," a rhyme referring to the gift of twenty-four land grants to King Henry VIII from Catholic leaders in the hope that the gift would be sufficient to satisfy the king's interest in confiscating all Catholic lands and other assets.  The gift wasn't sufficient.
       
      From the same time period, "The Twelve Days of Christmas" teaches Catholic catechism in code, when Catholic teaching had to be kept secret.
       
      Maria Tatar's annotations to traditional fairy tales might prove helpful as well.
       
      Good luck!
       
      Christopher
    • John Rateliff
      salright. The key is just to remember that it rhymes with Lord Insany , his nickname (unknown to himself, of course) during the brief time he was a visiting
      Message 2 of 17 , Jun 13, 2011
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        'salright. The key is just to remember that it rhymes with "Lord Insany", his nickname (unknown to himself, of course) during the brief time he was a visiting lecturer at the Univ. of Athens.
           Another key Dunsany piece re. Xianity is THE BLESSINGS OF PAN, in which a village vicar in Kent struggles against a local resurgence of paganism. Not his best novel, but a fairly devastating critique.
           Where Dunsany really shines on this topic, I think, is that he understands the mind-set behind idolatry better than any other author I know (certainly better than the authors of the latter parts of the Old Testament, who are utterly baffled why anyone shd want to do such a thing). And of course he was the first to create his own pantheon of fantasy gods: I'd argue his example inspired both Tolkien's Valar and Lovecraft's Cthulhu Mythos.

           All this is straying a bit from the original 'Xian Fairy Tale' topic, but if we're talking Xian fantasy in general I'd also recommend Boyer & Zahorski's VISIONS OF WONDER, part of a series of interesting anthologies they put out in the late seventies and early eighties (THE FANTASTIC IMAGINATION, THE FANTASTIC IMAGINATION II, THE PHOENIX TREE, & best of all FANTASISTS ON FANTASY, wh. includes an essay apiece by MacD and GKC that shd be relevant).

        --John R.

        On Jun 13, 2011, at 1:45 AM, John Davis wrote:

        Speaking of him, but apparently unable to spell his name first thing in the morning. Apologies! John
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: John Davis
        Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 9:42 AM
        Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Fairy Tales

        Speaking of Dunsanay, The King of Elfland's Daughter is both a fairy tale (of sorts), and (in part) an account of Christianity coming into conflict with faery.
         
        John
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2011 2:00 AM
        Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Fairy Tales

        Well, I'd say the place to start would be George MacDonald, especially his short fairy-tales. MacD was both a devout (though highly unorthodox) Xian and a ground-breaking writer of fairy-tales, so there'll be plenty to read and discuss.

        For contrast, they might want to compare a story or two by Dunsany, who makes up his own gods (an entirely different way of getting "religion" into fairy-tales).

        Yet another differing viewpoint might be Kenneth Morris, whose work is suffused with religiosity but rarely overtly religious; a great exception is "The Saint and the Forest God" (in THE SECRET MOUNTAIN and in Doug Anderson's collection THE DRAGON PATH).

        --John R.

        On Jun 10, 2011, at 2:33 PM, hughhdavis@... wrote:
        > A student has asked me about a possible independent study next year looking at religion in fairy tales. As I collect potential materials, I thought I would turn to the collective wisdom of this group for suggestions. Cursory searches turn up many "religion is just a fairy tale"-type blogs.
        > 
        > Thanks in advance, 
        > Hugh Davis




      • Kevin Bowring
        Excuse me if someone already mentioned this, but G. Ronald Murphy s The Owl, the Raven, and the Dove: The Religious Meaning of the Grimms Magic Fairy Tales
        Message 3 of 17 , Jun 14, 2011
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          Excuse me if someone already mentioned this, but G. Ronald Murphy's "The Owl, the Raven, and the Dove: The Religious Meaning of the Grimms' Magic Fairy Tales" would seem to be a reasonable place to start.  It won a Mythsoc award.  Here's the Amazon link for more info:
          http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0195136071/ref=ox_sc_act_title_3?ie=UTF8&m=A7MGM2FC6ASLQ

          Kevin



          --- On Fri, 6/10/11, hughhdavis@... <hughhdavis@...> wrote:

          From: hughhdavis@... <hughhdavis@...>
          Subject: [mythsoc] Fairy Tales
          To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Friday, June 10, 2011, 5:33 PM

           

          A student has asked me about a possible independent study next year looking at religion in fairy tales. As I collect potential materials, I thought I would turn to the collective wisdom of this group for suggestions. Cursory searches turn up many "religion is just a fairy tale"-type blogs.

          Thanks in advance,
          Hugh Davis

        • bernip
          He is also scholar GOH next summer at the Mythcon in Berkeley. Berni Phillips Bratman _____ From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On
          Message 4 of 17 , Jun 14, 2011
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            He is also scholar GOH next summer at the Mythcon in Berkeley.
             
            Berni Phillips Bratman
             


            From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Bowring
            Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 7:18 PM
            To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Fairy Tales

            Excuse me if someone already mentioned this, but G. Ronald Murphy's "The Owl, the Raven, and the Dove: The Religious Meaning of the Grimms' Magic Fairy Tales" would seem to be a reasonable place to start.  It won a Mythsoc award.  Here's the Amazon link for more info:
            http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0195136071/ref=ox_sc_act_title_3?ie=UTF8&m=A7MGM2FC6ASLQ

            Kevin



            --- On Fri, 6/10/11, hughhdavis@... <hughhdavis@...> wrote:

            From: hughhdavis@... <hughhdavis@...>
            Subject: [mythsoc] Fairy Tales
            To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Friday, June 10, 2011, 5:33 PM

             

            A student has asked me about a possible independent study next year looking at religion in fairy tales. As I collect potential materials, I thought I would turn to the collective wisdom of this group for suggestions. Cursory searches turn up many "religion is just a fairy tale"-type blogs.

            Thanks in advance,
            Hugh Davis

          • dale nelson
            This was my review of Murphy s book when it first came out, FWIW. http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/print.php?id=15-05-047-b Dale Nelson
            Message 5 of 17 , Jun 15, 2011
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              This was my review of Murphy's book when it first came out, FWIW.

              http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/print.php?id=15-05-047-b

              Dale Nelson



              From: Kevin Bowring <allegoresis@...>
              To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tue, June 14, 2011 9:18:01 PM
              Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Fairy Tales

               

              Excuse me if someone already mentioned this, but G. Ronald Murphy's "The Owl, the Raven, and the Dove: The Religious Meaning of the Grimms' Magic Fairy Tales" would seem to be a reasonable place to start.  It won a Mythsoc award.  Here's the Amazon link for more info:
              http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0195136071/ref=ox_sc_act_title_3?ie=UTF8&m=A7MGM2FC6ASLQ

              Kevin



              --- On Fri, 6/10/11, hughhdavis@... <hughhdavis@...> wrote:

              From: hughhdavis@... <hughhdavis@...>
              Subject: [mythsoc] Fairy Tales
              To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Friday, June 10, 2011, 5:33 PM

               

              A student has asked me about a possible independent study next year looking at religion in fairy tales. As I collect potential materials, I thought I would turn to the collective wisdom of this group for suggestions. Cursory searches turn up many "religion is just a fairy tale"-type blogs.

              Thanks in advance,
              Hugh Davis

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