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Fairy Tales

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  • hughhdavis@gmail.com
    A student has asked me about a possible independent study next year looking at religion in fairy tales. As I collect potential materials, I thought I would
    Message 1 of 17 , Jun 10, 2011
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      A student has asked me about a possible independent study next year looking at religion in fairy tales. As I collect potential materials, I thought I would turn to the collective wisdom of this group for suggestions. Cursory searches turn up many "religion is just a fairy tale"-type blogs.

      Thanks in advance,
      Hugh Davis
    • John Rateliff
      Well, I d say the place to start would be George MacDonald, especially his short fairy-tales. MacD was both a devout (though highly unorthodox) Xian and a
      Message 2 of 17 , Jun 10, 2011
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        Well, I'd say the place to start would be George MacDonald, especially his short fairy-tales. MacD was both a devout (though highly unorthodox) Xian and a ground-breaking writer of fairy-tales, so there'll be plenty to read and discuss.

        For contrast, they might want to compare a story or two by Dunsany, who makes up his own gods (an entirely different way of getting "religion" into fairy-tales).

        Yet another differing viewpoint might be Kenneth Morris, whose work is suffused with religiosity but rarely overtly religious; a great exception is "The Saint and the Forest God" (in THE SECRET MOUNTAIN and in Doug Anderson's collection THE DRAGON PATH).

        --John R.


        On Jun 10, 2011, at 2:33 PM, hughhdavis@... wrote:
        > A student has asked me about a possible independent study next year looking at religion in fairy tales. As I collect potential materials, I thought I would turn to the collective wisdom of this group for suggestions. Cursory searches turn up many "religion is just a fairy tale"-type blogs.
        >
        > Thanks in advance,
        > Hugh Davis
      • dale nelson
        Good luck to your student, especially if he/she is interested in something other than an accumulation of Jungian material. Did N. F. S. Grundtvig work with
        Message 3 of 17 , Jun 10, 2011
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          Good luck to your student, especially if he/she is interested in something other than an accumulation of Jungian material.

          Did N. F. S. Grundtvig work with fairy/folk tales?  He was one of Denmark's most notable pastors and also wrote about Beowulf.  Jorgen Moe was a minister (he being, with Asbjornsen, the great presenter of Norwegian tales).  

          Dale


          From: "hughhdavis@..." <hughhdavis@...>
          To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Fri, June 10, 2011 4:33:20 PM
          Subject: [mythsoc] Fairy Tales

           

          A student has asked me about a possible independent study next year looking at religion in fairy tales. As I collect potential materials, I thought I would turn to the collective wisdom of this group for suggestions. Cursory searches turn up many "religion is just a fairy tale"-type blogs.

          Thanks in advance,
          Hugh Davis

        • Alana Abbott
          ... And here I was actually going to suggest that Jung might have some applicable material. :) I think we used *Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious* in
          Message 4 of 17 , Jun 10, 2011
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            Good luck to your student, especially if he/she is interested in something other than an accumulation of Jungian material.

            And here I was actually going to suggest that Jung might have some applicable material. :) I think we used Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious in the mythic imagination class I took in college. We also used Hamlet's Mill by de Santillana and von Deschen, which I think could have some ideas that would translate well. I thought that Barfield's Saving the Appearances had some resonance with "On Fairy Stories," and thus found it useful, but that may have been the context in which I was reading it, as it doesn't really refer back to fairy tales, per se.

            It may also depend on the angle. Christianity features as a power opposing the fairy elements in a number of fairy stories; conversion of fairies happens in Irish tales ("Children of Lir" among others), etc. etc. I suspect that people have written about those aspects in scholarly books about the particularly groupings of fairy tales (rather than on the whole), but have no real reason for that suspicion except that I think someone ought to have.

            I'd certainly be interested in finding out what conclusions your student eventually comes to!

            -Alana
            --
            Alana Joli Abbott, Freelance Writer and Editor (http://www.virgilandbeatrice.com)
            Author of Into the Reach and Departure, available at http://tinyurl.com/aja-ebooks
            Columnist, "The Town with Five Main Streets," http://branford.patch.com/columns/the-town-with-five-main-streets
            Contributor to Origins Award winner, Serenity Adventures: http://tinyurl.com/serenity-adventures
            --
            For updates on my writings, join my mailing list at http://groups.google.com/group/alanajoliabbottfans

          • davise@cs.nyu.edu
            A couple of Oscar Wilde s stories: The Selfish Giant , The Young King , and The Happy Prince . Some of Hans Christian Andersen s stories: Certainly The
            Message 5 of 17 , Jun 11, 2011
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              A couple of Oscar Wilde's stories: "The Selfish Giant", "The Young King", and "The Happy Prince". Some of Hans Christian Andersen's stories: Certainly "The Marsh King's Daughter", I think some others,
              but I don't know Andersen at all well.

              -- Ernie

              --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, hughhdavis@... wrote:
              >
              > A student has asked me about a possible independent study next year looking at religion in fairy tales. As I collect potential materials, I thought I would turn to the collective wisdom of this group for suggestions. Cursory searches turn up many "religion is just a fairy tale"-type blogs.
              >
              > Thanks in advance,
              > Hugh Davis
              >
            • Hugh Davis
              Thanks already for the great replies. I had thought about Andersen, as I remembered several of his stories involving faith, and I definitely am looking into
              Message 6 of 17 , Jun 11, 2011
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                Thanks already for the great replies. I had thought about Andersen, as I remembered several of his stories involving faith, and I definitely am looking into George MacDonald. If anyone knows of studies, I would be very appreciative as well.
              • Dennis Tweten
                The book “Faerie Gold” edited by Kathryn Lindskoog and Ranelda Mack Hunsicker has a number of fairy tales by different authors. I don’t think all of the
                Message 7 of 17 , Jun 11, 2011
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                  The book “Faerie Gold” edited by Kathryn Lindskoog and Ranelda Mack Hunsicker has a number of fairy tales by different authors.  I don’t think all of the authors are Christians but it might be another place to look.
                  - Dennis
                • dale nelson
                  Ah -- so you are talking about literary fairy tales (but maybe also folk tales?). Undine is about the soul... Christina Rossetti s Goblin Market might be
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jun 11, 2011
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                    Ah -- so you are talking about literary fairy tales (but maybe also folk tales?).  Undine is about the soul...  Christina Rossetti's Goblin Market might be appropriate...

                    Dale


                    From: Hugh Davis <hughhdavis@...>
                    To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sat, June 11, 2011 9:40:56 AM
                    Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Fairy Tales

                     

                    Thanks already for the great replies. I had thought about Andersen, as I remembered several of his stories involving faith, and I definitely am looking into George MacDonald. If anyone knows of studies, I would be very appreciative as well.

                  • John Davis
                    Speaking of Dunsanay, The King of Elfland s Daughter is both a fairy tale (of sorts), and (in part) an account of Christianity coming into conflict with faery.
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jun 13, 2011
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                      Speaking of Dunsanay, The King of Elfland's Daughter is both a fairy tale (of sorts), and (in part) an account of Christianity coming into conflict with faery.
                       
                      John
                       
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2011 2:00 AM
                      Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Fairy Tales

                       

                      Well, I'd say the place to start would be George MacDonald, especially his short fairy-tales. MacD was both a devout (though highly unorthodox) Xian and a ground-breaking writer of fairy-tales, so there'll be plenty to read and discuss.

                      For contrast, they might want to compare a story or two by Dunsany, who makes up his own gods (an entirely different way of getting "religion" into fairy-tales).

                      Yet another differing viewpoint might be Kenneth Morris, whose work is suffused with religiosity but rarely overtly religious; a great exception is "The Saint and the Forest God" (in THE SECRET MOUNTAIN and in Doug Anderson's collection THE DRAGON PATH).

                      --John R.

                      On Jun 10, 2011, at 2:33 PM, hughhdavis@... wrote:
                      > A student has asked me about a possible independent study next year looking at religion in fairy tales. As I collect potential materials, I thought I would turn to the collective wisdom of this group for suggestions. Cursory searches turn up many "religion is just a fairy tale"-type blogs.
                      >
                      > Thanks in advance,
                      > Hugh Davis

                    • John Davis
                      Speaking of him, but apparently unable to spell his name first thing in the morning. Apologies! John ... From: John Davis To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com Sent:
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jun 13, 2011
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                        Speaking of him, but apparently unable to spell his name first thing in the morning. Apologies! John
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 9:42 AM
                        Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Fairy Tales

                        Speaking of Dunsanay, The King of Elfland's Daughter is both a fairy tale (of sorts), and (in part) an account of Christianity coming into conflict with faery.
                         
                        John
                         
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2011 2:00 AM
                        Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Fairy Tales

                         

                        Well, I'd say the place to start would be George MacDonald, especially his short fairy-tales. MacD was both a devout (though highly unorthodox) Xian and a ground-breaking writer of fairy-tales, so there'll be plenty to read and discuss.

                        For contrast, they might want to compare a story or two by Dunsany, who makes up his own gods (an entirely different way of getting "religion" into fairy-tales).

                        Yet another differing viewpoint might be Kenneth Morris, whose work is suffused with religiosity but rarely overtly religious; a great exception is "The Saint and the Forest God" (in THE SECRET MOUNTAIN and in Doug Anderson's collection THE DRAGON PATH).

                        --John R.

                        On Jun 10, 2011, at 2:33 PM, hughhdavis@... wrote:
                        > A student has asked me about a possible independent study next year looking at religion in fairy tales. As I collect potential materials, I thought I would turn to the collective wisdom of this group for suggestions. Cursory searches turn up many "religion is just a fairy tale"-type blogs.
                        >
                        > Thanks in advance,
                        > Hugh Davis

                      • Christopher Couch
                        This might be an addendum, but nursery rhymes were religious and political messages wrapped in metaphor.  An example is Four and twenty blackbirds, a rhyme
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jun 13, 2011
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                          This might be an addendum, but nursery rhymes were religious and political messages wrapped in metaphor.  An example is "Four and twenty blackbirds," a rhyme referring to the gift of twenty-four land grants to King Henry VIII from Catholic leaders in the hope that the gift would be sufficient to satisfy the king's interest in confiscating all Catholic lands and other assets.  The gift wasn't sufficient.
                           
                          From the same time period, "The Twelve Days of Christmas" teaches Catholic catechism in code, when Catholic teaching had to be kept secret.
                           
                          Maria Tatar's annotations to traditional fairy tales might prove helpful as well.
                           
                          Good luck!
                           
                          Christopher

                          --- On Fri, 6/10/11, hughhdavis@... <hughhdavis@...> wrote:

                          From: hughhdavis@... <hughhdavis@...>
                          Subject: [mythsoc] Fairy Tales
                          To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Friday, June 10, 2011, 5:33 PM

                           
                          A student has asked me about a possible independent study next year looking at religion in fairy tales. As I collect potential materials, I thought I would turn to the collective wisdom of this group for suggestions. Cursory searches turn up many "religion is just a fairy tale"-type blogs.

                          Thanks in advance,
                          Hugh Davis

                        • Mike Foster
                          As I recall, the Padraic Colum (introduction) edition of THE COMPLETE GRIMM’S FAIRY TALES includes a few tales featuring St. Peter, Mary et alia. It is
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jun 13, 2011
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                            As I recall, the Padraic Colum (introduction) edition of THE COMPLETE GRIMM’S FAIRY TALES includes a few tales featuring St. Peter, Mary et alia.  It is available from Amazon and on Kindle.
                             
                            Cheers,
                            Mike
                             
                            Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 10:40 AM
                            Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Fairy Tales
                             
                             

                            This might be an addendum, but nursery rhymes were religious and political messages wrapped in metaphor.  An example is "Four and twenty blackbirds," a rhyme referring to the gift of twenty-four land grants to King Henry VIII from Catholic leaders in the hope that the gift would be sufficient to satisfy the king's interest in confiscating all Catholic lands and other assets.  The gift wasn't sufficient.
                             
                            From the same time period, "The Twelve Days of Christmas" teaches Catholic catechism in code, when Catholic teaching had to be kept secret.
                             
                            Maria Tatar's annotations to traditional fairy tales might prove helpful as well.
                             
                            Good luck!
                             
                            Christopher

                            --- On Fri, 6/10/11, hughhdavis@... <hughhdavis@...> wrote:

                            From: hughhdavis@... <hughhdavis@...>
                            Subject: [mythsoc] Fairy Tales
                            To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Friday, June 10, 2011, 5:33 PM

                             
                            A student has asked me about a possible independent study next year looking at religion in fairy tales. As I collect potential materials, I thought I would turn to the collective wisdom of this group for suggestions. Cursory searches turn up many "religion is just a fairy tale"-type blogs.

                            Thanks in advance,
                            Hugh Davis

                          • John Rateliff
                            Actually, this was only one theory, put forward by a bee-in-her-bonnet scholar* who thought every nursery rhyme was a coded critique of the Tudors. The
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jun 13, 2011
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                              Actually, this was only one theory, put forward by a bee-in-her-bonnet scholar* who thought every nursery rhyme was a coded critique of the Tudors. The Baring-Goulds do a fairly searing critique of her work in their wonderful ANNOTATED MOTHER GOOSE [1962], which I highly recommend.
                                  Don't know about THE TWELVE DAYS, but I wdn't have thought one wd have to smuggle Xian doctrine into what is after all a Christmas carol.
                                 Afraid I don't know Tatar's work; I'll be on the look-out for that.

                              --JDR

                              *one Katherine Elwes Thomas, in her THE REAL PERSONAGES OF MOTHER GOOSE [1930]

                              On Jun 13, 2011, at 8:40 AM, Christopher Couch wrote:
                              This might be an addendum, but nursery rhymes were religious and political messages wrapped in metaphor.  An example is "Four and twenty blackbirds," a rhyme referring to the gift of twenty-four land grants to King Henry VIII from Catholic leaders in the hope that the gift would be sufficient to satisfy the king's interest in confiscating all Catholic lands and other assets.  The gift wasn't sufficient.
                               
                              From the same time period, "The Twelve Days of Christmas" teaches Catholic catechism in code, when Catholic teaching had to be kept secret.
                               
                              Maria Tatar's annotations to traditional fairy tales might prove helpful as well.
                               
                              Good luck!
                               
                              Christopher
                            • John Rateliff
                              salright. The key is just to remember that it rhymes with Lord Insany , his nickname (unknown to himself, of course) during the brief time he was a visiting
                              Message 14 of 17 , Jun 13, 2011
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                                'salright. The key is just to remember that it rhymes with "Lord Insany", his nickname (unknown to himself, of course) during the brief time he was a visiting lecturer at the Univ. of Athens.
                                   Another key Dunsany piece re. Xianity is THE BLESSINGS OF PAN, in which a village vicar in Kent struggles against a local resurgence of paganism. Not his best novel, but a fairly devastating critique.
                                   Where Dunsany really shines on this topic, I think, is that he understands the mind-set behind idolatry better than any other author I know (certainly better than the authors of the latter parts of the Old Testament, who are utterly baffled why anyone shd want to do such a thing). And of course he was the first to create his own pantheon of fantasy gods: I'd argue his example inspired both Tolkien's Valar and Lovecraft's Cthulhu Mythos.

                                   All this is straying a bit from the original 'Xian Fairy Tale' topic, but if we're talking Xian fantasy in general I'd also recommend Boyer & Zahorski's VISIONS OF WONDER, part of a series of interesting anthologies they put out in the late seventies and early eighties (THE FANTASTIC IMAGINATION, THE FANTASTIC IMAGINATION II, THE PHOENIX TREE, & best of all FANTASISTS ON FANTASY, wh. includes an essay apiece by MacD and GKC that shd be relevant).

                                --John R.

                                On Jun 13, 2011, at 1:45 AM, John Davis wrote:

                                Speaking of him, but apparently unable to spell his name first thing in the morning. Apologies! John
                                 
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: John Davis
                                Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 9:42 AM
                                Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Fairy Tales

                                Speaking of Dunsanay, The King of Elfland's Daughter is both a fairy tale (of sorts), and (in part) an account of Christianity coming into conflict with faery.
                                 
                                John
                                 
                                 
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2011 2:00 AM
                                Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Fairy Tales

                                Well, I'd say the place to start would be George MacDonald, especially his short fairy-tales. MacD was both a devout (though highly unorthodox) Xian and a ground-breaking writer of fairy-tales, so there'll be plenty to read and discuss.

                                For contrast, they might want to compare a story or two by Dunsany, who makes up his own gods (an entirely different way of getting "religion" into fairy-tales).

                                Yet another differing viewpoint might be Kenneth Morris, whose work is suffused with religiosity but rarely overtly religious; a great exception is "The Saint and the Forest God" (in THE SECRET MOUNTAIN and in Doug Anderson's collection THE DRAGON PATH).

                                --John R.

                                On Jun 10, 2011, at 2:33 PM, hughhdavis@... wrote:
                                > A student has asked me about a possible independent study next year looking at religion in fairy tales. As I collect potential materials, I thought I would turn to the collective wisdom of this group for suggestions. Cursory searches turn up many "religion is just a fairy tale"-type blogs.
                                > 
                                > Thanks in advance, 
                                > Hugh Davis




                              • Kevin Bowring
                                Excuse me if someone already mentioned this, but G. Ronald Murphy s The Owl, the Raven, and the Dove: The Religious Meaning of the Grimms Magic Fairy Tales
                                Message 15 of 17 , Jun 14, 2011
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                                  Excuse me if someone already mentioned this, but G. Ronald Murphy's "The Owl, the Raven, and the Dove: The Religious Meaning of the Grimms' Magic Fairy Tales" would seem to be a reasonable place to start.  It won a Mythsoc award.  Here's the Amazon link for more info:
                                  http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0195136071/ref=ox_sc_act_title_3?ie=UTF8&m=A7MGM2FC6ASLQ

                                  Kevin



                                  --- On Fri, 6/10/11, hughhdavis@... <hughhdavis@...> wrote:

                                  From: hughhdavis@... <hughhdavis@...>
                                  Subject: [mythsoc] Fairy Tales
                                  To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Friday, June 10, 2011, 5:33 PM

                                   

                                  A student has asked me about a possible independent study next year looking at religion in fairy tales. As I collect potential materials, I thought I would turn to the collective wisdom of this group for suggestions. Cursory searches turn up many "religion is just a fairy tale"-type blogs.

                                  Thanks in advance,
                                  Hugh Davis

                                • bernip
                                  He is also scholar GOH next summer at the Mythcon in Berkeley. Berni Phillips Bratman _____ From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Jun 14, 2011
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                                    He is also scholar GOH next summer at the Mythcon in Berkeley.
                                     
                                    Berni Phillips Bratman
                                     


                                    From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Bowring
                                    Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 7:18 PM
                                    To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Fairy Tales

                                    Excuse me if someone already mentioned this, but G. Ronald Murphy's "The Owl, the Raven, and the Dove: The Religious Meaning of the Grimms' Magic Fairy Tales" would seem to be a reasonable place to start.  It won a Mythsoc award.  Here's the Amazon link for more info:
                                    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0195136071/ref=ox_sc_act_title_3?ie=UTF8&m=A7MGM2FC6ASLQ

                                    Kevin



                                    --- On Fri, 6/10/11, hughhdavis@... <hughhdavis@...> wrote:

                                    From: hughhdavis@... <hughhdavis@...>
                                    Subject: [mythsoc] Fairy Tales
                                    To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Friday, June 10, 2011, 5:33 PM

                                     

                                    A student has asked me about a possible independent study next year looking at religion in fairy tales. As I collect potential materials, I thought I would turn to the collective wisdom of this group for suggestions. Cursory searches turn up many "religion is just a fairy tale"-type blogs.

                                    Thanks in advance,
                                    Hugh Davis

                                  • dale nelson
                                    This was my review of Murphy s book when it first came out, FWIW. http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/print.php?id=15-05-047-b Dale Nelson
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Jun 15, 2011
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                                      This was my review of Murphy's book when it first came out, FWIW.

                                      http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/print.php?id=15-05-047-b

                                      Dale Nelson



                                      From: Kevin Bowring <allegoresis@...>
                                      To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Tue, June 14, 2011 9:18:01 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Fairy Tales

                                       

                                      Excuse me if someone already mentioned this, but G. Ronald Murphy's "The Owl, the Raven, and the Dove: The Religious Meaning of the Grimms' Magic Fairy Tales" would seem to be a reasonable place to start.  It won a Mythsoc award.  Here's the Amazon link for more info:
                                      http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0195136071/ref=ox_sc_act_title_3?ie=UTF8&m=A7MGM2FC6ASLQ

                                      Kevin



                                      --- On Fri, 6/10/11, hughhdavis@... <hughhdavis@...> wrote:

                                      From: hughhdavis@... <hughhdavis@...>
                                      Subject: [mythsoc] Fairy Tales
                                      To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                                      Date: Friday, June 10, 2011, 5:33 PM

                                       

                                      A student has asked me about a possible independent study next year looking at religion in fairy tales. As I collect potential materials, I thought I would turn to the collective wisdom of this group for suggestions. Cursory searches turn up many "religion is just a fairy tale"-type blogs.

                                      Thanks in advance,
                                      Hugh Davis

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