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Re: [mythsoc] Re: language change

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  • Darrell A. Martin
    ... Alana: The pair, here, there had a matching pair, hence, thence which can be simply defined, from here, from there . Hence , in the sense of from
    Message 1 of 21 , Apr 28, 2011
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      On 4/28/2011 9:41 AM, Alana Abbott wrote:
      >
      >
      > This makes me wonder if I'm using "hence" incorrectly. We often use it
      > in place of "therefore" around here -- is that an alternate definition?
      > An anachronism? Or just plain wrong?
      >
      > -Alana

      Alana:

      The pair, "here, there" had a matching pair, "hence, thence" which can
      be simply defined, "from here, from there".

      "Hence", in the sense of "from here", is often used metaphorically. That
      is to say, "having reached 'where we are', FROM HERE we may proceed".
      Hence, your usage is correct.

      Darrell
    • John Rateliff
      One further thought I find it amusing is that some grammarians try to correct people who say from whence , arguing that the proper usage is just whence .
      Message 2 of 21 , Apr 28, 2011
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        One further thought I find it amusing is that some grammarians try to 'correct' people who say "from whence", arguing that the proper usage is just "whence". They fail to take into account that "whence" has pretty much dropped out of spoken English, except in the literary tag ("from whence you came") David mentions. So their 'correction' would, if adopted, mean the word's disappearance from usage altogether.


        On Apr 28, 2011, at 9:11 AM, David Emerson wrote:
        ". . .  You better go back to from whence you came."

        Okay, so his grammar is somewhat mangled...

        Actually, it's elliptical: "You [had] better go back to [from when you came], with the verbal auxiliary "had" dropped (as it sometimes is in colloquial English for emphasis and "from whence you came" serving as the object of the preposition "to". It works because from-whence-you-came is enough of a cliche or tag line (like 'to whom it may concern'*) that he cleverly uses it as a unit for poetic effect.

        Ain't grammar grand?

        --JDR

        *itself pretty much the only survival of whom in spoken English.
      • Larry Swain
        On Thu, 28 Apr 2011 12:20 -0700, John Rateliff ... try to correct people who say from whence , arguing that the proper usage is just whence . They fail
        Message 3 of 21 , Apr 28, 2011
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          On Thu, 28 Apr 2011 12:20 -0700, "John Rateliff"
          <sacnoth@...> wrote:



          >>One further thought I find it amusing is that some grammarians
          try to 'correct' people who say "from whence", arguing that the
          proper usage is just "whence". They fail to take into account
          that "whence" has pretty much dropped out of spoken English,
          except in the literary tag ("from whence you came") David
          mentions. So their 'correction' would, if adopted, mean the
          word's disappearance from usage altogether.<<

          Even more amusing is that "from whence" is attested in major writers
          from the 14th century onward, including in Langland, Malory,
          Shakespeare, the King James, Dryden, Dickens, Robert Stevenson, etc.
          There are also uses such as "of whence" and "whence-from." I think it
          difficult for hyper-correcting grammarians to maintain that Shakespeare
          and Dickens and co. got it wrong. About the only thing that can be said
          is that it is *redundant* to say "from whence" or "of whence", but then
          language is full of useful, perfectly grammatical redundancies. So I'm
          amused by grammarians who correct a perfectly grammatical and
          well-attested usage.

          Larry Swain

          --
          http://www.fastmail.fm - Accessible with your email software
          or over the web
        • lynnmaudlin
          oh thank you! That helps me, too - like so many folks with large vocabularies, I ve gained much of it simply by usage (hearing, reading, & absorbing) and I ve
          Message 4 of 21 , Apr 28, 2011
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            oh thank you! That helps me, too - like so many folks with large vocabularies, I've gained much of it simply by usage (hearing, reading, & absorbing) and I've used "hence" as a synonym for "therefore" - but it's got a slightly different quality to it, which you've managed to impart - thanks!!

            -- Lynn --

            --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Darrell A. Martin" <darrellm@...> wrote:
            >
            > On 4/28/2011 9:41 AM, Alana Abbott wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > This makes me wonder if I'm using "hence" incorrectly. We often use it
            > > in place of "therefore" around here -- is that an alternate definition?
            > > An anachronism? Or just plain wrong?
            > >
            > > -Alana
            >
            > Alana:
            >
            > The pair, "here, there" had a matching pair, "hence, thence" which can
            > be simply defined, "from here, from there".
            >
            > "Hence", in the sense of "from here", is often used metaphorically. That
            > is to say, "having reached 'where we are', FROM HERE we may proceed".
            > Hence, your usage is correct.
            >
            > Darrell
            >
          • lynnmaudlin
            ESPECIALLY in English, of all things! English, that grand snowball rolling downhill of a language, gathering pebbles and branches and slow animals in its
            Message 5 of 21 , Apr 28, 2011
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              ESPECIALLY in English, of all things! English, that grand snowball rolling downhill of a language, gathering pebbles and branches and slow animals in its path...! ;)

              -- Lynn --


              --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Swain" <theswain@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > On Thu, 28 Apr 2011 12:20 -0700, "John Rateliff"
              > <sacnoth@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > >>One further thought I find it amusing is that some grammarians
              > try to 'correct' people who say "from whence", arguing that the
              > proper usage is just "whence". They fail to take into account
              > that "whence" has pretty much dropped out of spoken English,
              > except in the literary tag ("from whence you came") David
              > mentions. So their 'correction' would, if adopted, mean the
              > word's disappearance from usage altogether.<<
              >
              > Even more amusing is that "from whence" is attested in major writers
              > from the 14th century onward, including in Langland, Malory,
              > Shakespeare, the King James, Dryden, Dickens, Robert Stevenson, etc.
              > There are also uses such as "of whence" and "whence-from." I think it
              > difficult for hyper-correcting grammarians to maintain that Shakespeare
              > and Dickens and co. got it wrong. About the only thing that can be said
              > is that it is *redundant* to say "from whence" or "of whence", but then
              > language is full of useful, perfectly grammatical redundancies. So I'm
              > amused by grammarians who correct a perfectly grammatical and
              > well-attested usage.
              >
              > Larry Swain
              >
              > --
              > http://www.fastmail.fm - Accessible with your email software
              > or over the web
              >
            • Darrell A. Martin
              ... Lynn: It is said that English does not borrow from other languages. It waits for them to go into dark alleys, beats them up, and takes whatever it wants.
              Message 6 of 21 , Apr 28, 2011
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                On 4/29/2011 12:48 AM, lynnmaudlin wrote:
                > ESPECIALLY in English, of all things! English, that grand snowball rolling downhill of a language, gathering pebbles and branches and slow animals in its path...! ;)
                >
                > -- Lynn --

                Lynn:

                It is said that English does not borrow from other languages. It waits
                for them to go into dark alleys, beats them up, and takes whatever it wants.

                Darrell
              • Margaret Dean
                On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 12:12 AM, Darrell A. Martin ... The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a
                Message 7 of 21 , Apr 29, 2011
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                  On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 12:12 AM, Darrell A. Martin
                  <darrellm@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > On 4/29/2011 12:48 AM, lynnmaudlin wrote:
                  > > ESPECIALLY in English, of all things! English, that grand snowball rolling downhill of a language, gathering pebbles and branches and slow animals in its path...! ;)
                  > >
                  > > -- Lynn --
                  >
                  > Lynn:
                  >
                  > It is said that English does not borrow from other languages. It waits
                  > for them to go into dark alleys, beats them up, and takes whatever it wants.

                  "The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
                  English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow
                  words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways
                  to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new
                  vocabulary."—James D. Nicoll, 1990, in the Usenet group
                  rec.arts.sf-lovers
                • Alana Abbott
                  Margaret, [an off-list response] Yay, the real quote! James Nicoll is a reviewer for *Publishers Weekly* (as am I), so I was thrilled to get the back story of
                  Message 8 of 21 , Apr 29, 2011
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                    Margaret,

                    [an off-list response]

                    Yay, the real quote! James Nicoll is a reviewer for Publishers Weekly (as am I), so I was thrilled to get the back story of his quote on our mailing list a few years ago. :) I'm so glad you posted the whole thing.

                    -Alana

                    On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 9:42 PM, Margaret Dean <margdean56@...> wrote:
                    On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 12:12 AM, Darrell A. Martin
                    <darrellm@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > On 4/29/2011 12:48 AM, lynnmaudlin wrote:
                    > > ESPECIALLY in English, of all things! English, that grand snowball rolling downhill of a language, gathering pebbles and branches and slow animals in its path...! ;)
                    > >
                    > > -- Lynn --
                    >
                    > Lynn:
                    >
                    > It is said that English does not borrow from other languages. It waits
                    > for them to go into dark alleys, beats them up, and takes whatever it wants.

                    "The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
                    English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow
                    words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways
                    to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new
                    vocabulary."—James D. Nicoll, 1990, in the Usenet group
                    rec.arts.sf-lovers


                    ------------------------------------

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                    --
                    Alana Joli Abbott, Freelance Writer and Editor (http://www.virgilandbeatrice.com)
                    Author of Into the Reach and Departure, available at http://tinyurl.com/aja-ebooks
                    Columnist, "The Town with Five Main Streets," http://branford.patch.com/columns/the-town-with-five-main-streets
                    Contributor to Origins Award winner, Serenity Adventures: http://tinyurl.com/serenity-adventures
                    --
                    For updates on my writings, join my mailing list at http://groups.google.com/group/alanajoliabbottfans

                  • Alana Abbott
                    Ha! Or an on-list response when I hit the wrong button. -Alana ... -- Alana Joli Abbott, Freelance Writer and Editor ( http://www.virgilandbeatrice.com) Author
                    Message 9 of 21 , Apr 29, 2011
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                      Ha! Or an on-list response when I hit the wrong button.

                      -Alana

                      On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 10:52 PM, Alana Abbott <alanajoli@...> wrote:
                      Margaret,

                      [an off-list response]

                      Yay, the real quote! James Nicoll is a reviewer for Publishers Weekly (as am I), so I was thrilled to get the back story of his quote on our mailing list a few years ago. :) I'm so glad you posted the whole thing.

                      -Alana

                      On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 9:42 PM, Margaret Dean <margdean56@...> wrote:
                      On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 12:12 AM, Darrell A. Martin
                      <darrellm@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > On 4/29/2011 12:48 AM, lynnmaudlin wrote:
                      > > ESPECIALLY in English, of all things! English, that grand snowball rolling downhill of a language, gathering pebbles and branches and slow animals in its path...! ;)
                      > >
                      > > -- Lynn --
                      >
                      > Lynn:
                      >
                      > It is said that English does not borrow from other languages. It waits
                      > for them to go into dark alleys, beats them up, and takes whatever it wants.

                      "The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
                      English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow
                      words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways
                      to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new
                      vocabulary."—James D. Nicoll, 1990, in the Usenet group
                      rec.arts.sf-lovers


                      ------------------------------------

                      The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.orgYahoo! Groups Links

                      <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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                      --
                      Alana Joli Abbott, Freelance Writer and Editor (http://www.virgilandbeatrice.com)
                      Author of Into the Reach and Departure, available at http://tinyurl.com/aja-ebooks
                      Columnist, "The Town with Five Main Streets," http://branford.patch.com/columns/the-town-with-five-main-streets
                      Contributor to Origins Award winner, Serenity Adventures: http://tinyurl.com/serenity-adventures
                      --
                      For updates on my writings, join my mailing list at http://groups.google.com/group/alanajoliabbottfans




                      --
                      Alana Joli Abbott, Freelance Writer and Editor (http://www.virgilandbeatrice.com)
                      Author of Into the Reach and Departure, available at http://tinyurl.com/aja-ebooks
                      Columnist, "The Town with Five Main Streets," http://branford.patch.com/columns/the-town-with-five-main-streets
                      Contributor to Origins Award winner, Serenity Adventures: http://tinyurl.com/serenity-adventures
                      --
                      For updates on my writings, join my mailing list at http://groups.google.com/group/alanajoliabbottfans

                    • lynnmaudlin
                      I prefer the snowball analogy; my mother tongue would never beat up a defenseless little language in a dark alley!!! ;) -- Lynn --
                      Message 10 of 21 , Apr 29, 2011
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                        I prefer the snowball analogy; my mother tongue would never beat up a defenseless little language in a dark alley!!! ;)

                        -- Lynn --


                        --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Darrell A. Martin" <darrellm@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > On 4/29/2011 12:48 AM, lynnmaudlin wrote:
                        > > ESPECIALLY in English, of all things! English, that grand snowball rolling downhill of a language, gathering pebbles and branches and slow animals in its path...! ;)
                        > >
                        > > -- Lynn --
                        >
                        > Lynn:
                        >
                        > It is said that English does not borrow from other languages. It waits
                        > for them to go into dark alleys, beats them up, and takes whatever it wants.
                        >
                        > Darrell
                        >
                      • lynnmaudlin
                        Are we defending the purity of English ?? We are not the Académie française, after all--!! We re discussing history and bemoaning the passing of the
                        Message 11 of 21 , Apr 29, 2011
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                          Are we defending the "purity of English"?? We are not the Académie française, after all--!! We're discussing history and bemoaning the passing of the intimate singular second person (huh! good thing I'm first person, eh?!). {{grin}}

                          -- Lynn --


                          --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, Margaret Dean <margdean56@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 12:12 AM, Darrell A. Martin
                          > <darrellm@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > On 4/29/2011 12:48 AM, lynnmaudlin wrote:
                          > > > ESPECIALLY in English, of all things! English, that grand snowball rolling downhill of a language, gathering pebbles and branches and slow animals in its path...! ;)
                          > > >
                          > > > -- Lynn --
                          > >
                          > > Lynn:
                          > >
                          > > It is said that English does not borrow from other languages. It waits
                          > > for them to go into dark alleys, beats them up, and takes whatever it wants.
                          >
                          > "The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
                          > English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow
                          > words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways
                          > to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new
                          > vocabulary."—James D. Nicoll, 1990, in the Usenet group
                          > rec.arts.sf-lovers
                          >
                        • bernip
                          James Nicoll also blogs regularly on Live Journal. (His LJ handle is his name.) He writes much of his many cats and too-frequent accidents. He s a very
                          Message 12 of 21 , Apr 29, 2011
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                            James Nicoll also blogs regularly on Live Journal.  (His LJ handle is his name.)  He writes much of his many cats and too-frequent accidents.  He's a very witty writer (and a current Hugo nominee for best fan writer, I believe.)
                             
                            Berni
                             

                            From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Alana Abbott
                            Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 7:53 PM
                            To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: language change

                            Margaret,

                            [an off-list response]

                            Yay, the real quote! James Nicoll is a reviewer for Publishers Weekly (as am I), so I was thrilled to get the back story of his quote on our mailing list a few years ago. :) I'm so glad you posted the whole thing.

                            -Alana

                            On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 9:42 PM, Margaret Dean <margdean56@...> wrote:
                            On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 12:12 AM, Darrell A. Martin
                            <darrellm@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > On 4/29/2011 12:48 AM, lynnmaudlin wrote:
                            > > ESPECIALLY in English, of all things! English, that grand snowball rolling downhill of a language, gathering pebbles and branches and slow animals in its path...! ;)
                            > >
                            > > -- Lynn --
                            >
                            > Lynn:
                            >
                            > It is said that English does not borrow from other languages. It waits
                            > for them to go into dark alleys, beats them up, and takes whatever it wants.

                            "The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
                            English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow
                            words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways
                            to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new
                            vocabulary."—James D. Nicoll, 1990, in the Usenet group
                            rec.arts.sf-lovers


                            ------------------------------------

                            The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.orgYahoo! Groups Links

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                            --
                            Alana Joli Abbott, Freelance Writer and Editor (http://www.virgilandbeatrice.com)
                            Author of Into the Reach and Departure, available at http://tinyurl.com/aja-ebooks
                            Columnist, "The Town with Five Main Streets," http://branford.patch.com/columns/the-town-with-five-main-streets
                            Contributor to Origins Award winner, Serenity Adventures: http://tinyurl.com/serenity-adventures
                            --
                            For updates on my writings, join my mailing list at http://groups.google.com/group/alanajoliabbottfans

                          • Darrell A. Martin
                            ... Yay! indeed: I have heard a paraphrase of this quote in about half a dozen versions, over the years. Hence it is said . I m glad to get the whole thing,
                            Message 13 of 21 , Apr 29, 2011
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                              On 4/29/2011 9:52 PM, Alana Abbott wrote:
                              >
                              > Margaret,
                              >
                              > Yay, the real quote! James Nicoll is a reviewer for /Publishers
                              > Weekly/ (as am I), so I was thrilled to get the back story of his quote
                              > on our mailing list a few years ago. :) I'm so glad you posted the whole
                              > thing.
                              >
                              > -Alana
                              >
                              > On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 9:42 PM, Margaret Dean <margdean56@...
                              > <mailto:margdean56@...>> wrote:
                              >
                              > On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 12:12 AM, Darrell A. Martin
                              > <darrellm@... <mailto:darrellm@...>> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Lynn:
                              > >
                              > > It is said that English does not borrow from other languages.
                              > > It waits for them to go into dark alleys, beats them up,
                              > > and takes whatever it wants.

                              >> "The problem with defending the purity of
                              >> the English language is that English is
                              >> about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We
                              >> don't just borrow words; on occasion,
                              >> English has pursued other languages down
                              >> alleyways to beat them unconscious and
                              >> rifle their pockets for new vocabulary."
                              >> —James D. Nicoll, 1990, in the Usenet
                              >> group rec.arts.sf-lovers

                              Yay! indeed:

                              I have heard a paraphrase of this quote in about half a dozen versions,
                              over the years. Hence "it is said". I'm glad to get the whole thing, and
                              a source.

                              Classic Usenet, with no consideration for the feelings of the poor
                              cribhouse whores even in the period after it switched from the original
                              clay tablets to papyrus.

                              Darrell
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