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CSL Bible redux

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  • Andrew Lazo
    I have one. I ve read it. I like it. Lou is a friend who I tried to dissuade from creating this stink. Here s my deal (speaking in generalities): 1. Yup,
    Message 1 of 11 , Apr 21, 2011
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      I have one.  I've read it.  I like it.

      Lou is a friend who I tried to dissuade from creating this stink.  Here's my deal (speaking in generalities):

      1. Yup, it's marketing--HarperCollins owns the NRSV and CSL. More power to em, if this will sell more Bibles and more CSL.  God help us all read more good things more often.  I think they're aiming at two markets, likely--those who read the Bible but don't know Lewis well, and those who might know Lewis but not know the Bible.
      2. The quotes seem to me well-placed and intriguing, and not obvious.  In short, I find them fun and helpful and wish they'd included more.  And as always, I find myself surprised by a Lewis quote, especially out of their original settings--he's eminently quotable, and out in the wild, even familiar quotes shed new light.  It's quite well done in my opinion. 
      3. Yes, Lewis would have been appalled.  But in a Lewisian move, let's look at the words "would have been."  Whatever he would have been, I think CSL is now rather delighted that people might read the Bible because of his writing AND might read his writings so that they might understand God better.  He was a self-proclaimed "hot-gospeller;" I'm guesisng he right now cares so little about his legacy that he'd gladly agree with Paul that whether of false motives or true, the Gospel should be preached.  I betcha if his name and reputation and writing helps someone towards God, he'd be pleased. 
      4. The whole gender thing is a non-starter for me, esp. in this translation.  I applaud any efforts to correct the damage done to women over millenia.  Will such efforts prove artless at times, or overcorrective?  Sure.  Another way to say it is "human."
      I guess I'm saying that I need, constantly, more good news, more of what Tolkien called evangelium, "hope beyond the walls of the world,. poignant as grief."  If this book helps folks get there, I dare not disagree. Let there arise more good news.  I could use some.

      Mon deux centimes,

      Andrew
    • Carl F. Hostetter
      ... Agreed. ... Amen. ... It will also appeal to those who know the Bible well, and know Lewis well, for much the same reason that, e.g., Wayne and Christina s
      Message 2 of 11 , Apr 21, 2011
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        On Apr 21, 2011, at 2:24 PM, Andrew Lazo wrote:

        > Yup, it's marketing--HarperCollins owns the NRSV and CSL. More power to em, if this will sell more Bibles and more CSL.

        Agreed.

        > God help us all read more good things more often.

        Amen.

        > I think they're aiming at two markets, likely--those who read the Bible but don't know Lewis well, and those who might know Lewis but not know the Bible.

        It will also appeal to those who know the Bible well, and know Lewis well, for much the same reason that, e.g., Wayne and Christina's _Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Guide_ appeals to people who know both _LotR_ and Tolkien well: it is a well-informed _vade mecum_ to a beloved book. Can you get a great deal of information in each running commentary from other sources? Sure: but it's nice not to have to go search all those sources out _as you read through a text_. Really, it's a mystery to me why so many (esp. in this group) find this mysterious!

        > I betcha if his name and reputation and writing helps someone towards God, he'd be pleased.

        Agreed.

        > I applaud any efforts to correct the damage done to women over millenia.

        Me too. But I dispute whether any damage has been done to women because English translations of the Bible have historically used the historical non-gender-specific signification of "man" etc. Again, for me, the issue is that this supposed issue has been manufactured to advance the purposes of those who, I suspect, won't be happy until we intone "In the name of the Parent, and of the Child, and of the Holy Spirit"....

        Carl
      • Andrew
        Great discussion. Thanks for your response, friend. Let s meet each other in person before many days, no? ... I find such a prayer distasteful, certainly,
        Message 3 of 11 , Apr 21, 2011
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          Great discussion. Thanks for your response, friend. Let's meet each other in person before many days, no?

          I agree with almost everything but this made me pause:

          --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Carl F. Hostetter" <Aelfwine@...> wrote:

          > Again, for me, the issue is that this supposed issue has been manufactured to advance the purposes of those who, I suspect, won't be happy until we intone "In the name of the Parent, and of the Child, and of the Holy Spirit"....

          I find such a prayer distasteful, certainly, but I am thoughtless and ragged enough theologically to assume that ANY prayer I make is going to have to face Divine translation. Lord, my limping metaphor trnslate, and o, do save me from the things I think I mean!

          CSL says:

          "Thoughts are but coins. Let not me take instead
          Of Thee their thin-worn image of Thy head
          From all my thoughts, even from my thoughts of Thee
          O Thou fair silence fall, and set me free.

          Amen?
        • Carl F. Hostetter
          ... May it be so! ... As a general principle, I accept and quite agree with the sentiment! (But in this particular case, Jesus taught us to call God Father
          Message 4 of 11 , Apr 21, 2011
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            On Apr 21, 2011, at 4:00 PM, Andrew wrote:

            > Great discussion. Thanks for your response, friend. Let's meet each other in person before many days, no?

            May it be so!

            > > Again, for me, the issue is that this supposed issue has been manufactured to advance the purposes of those who, I suspect, won't be happy until we intone "In the name of the Parent, and of the Child, and of the Holy Spirit"....
            >
            > I find such a prayer distasteful, certainly, but I am thoughtless and ragged enough theologically to assume that ANY prayer I make is going to have to face Divine translation. Lord, my limping metaphor trnslate, and o, do save me from the things I think I mean!


            As a general principle, I accept and quite agree with the sentiment! (But in this particular case, Jesus taught us to call God Father (πατήρ), and called Himself the Son (υἱός); so Divine translation has already been provided!)

            Carl
          • dale nelson
            You and others have made good points in defense of the idea of a Lewis Bible. Whether what I m about to say appreciably offsets those points, I don t know, but
            Message 5 of 11 , Apr 21, 2011
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              You and others have made good points in defense of the idea of a Lewis Bible.

              Whether what I'm about to say appreciably offsets those points, I don't know, but -- a "Lewis Bible" will reinforce the perception that Lewis is a cult writer and a writer for people who are already Christians, even specifically evangelical Christians.  He didn't see himself as writing for this group, or anyway not just for this group.  He was at pains to address an audience of skeptics and of people whose Christian devotion and practice were tenuous.  It's doubtful that those folks will be receptive to a Lewis who is perceived as basically a writer who provides assurance for the convinced Christian. 

              However, I admit that the non-publication of the Lewis Bible might not have made much of a difference; the development of the image of Lewis as a comforting author for (middle-aged and older) evangelical Christians was already well underway.  The marketing of the Dawn Treader movie towards churches (as I understand has occurred) is just another instance.   Increasingly, it seems, Lewis is an author of whom many people are wary.  One sees quite a few harsh comments about him if one looks at the online presences of popular British newspapers such as the Guardian.  People who perhaps haven't even read him have their backs up because he's associated with American evangelicals so much.  Okay, that's their problem....?

              Dale



              From: Carl F. Hostetter <Aelfwine@...>
              To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, April 21, 2011 1:57:58 PM
              Subject: Re: [mythsoc] CSL Bible redux

               

            • Jason Fisher
              ... For what it s worth, Dale, I don t think this is exactly new. Your assessment here was equally true in the early 80s when I first encountered the Space
              Message 6 of 11 , Apr 21, 2011
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                > Increasingly, it seems, Lewis is an author of whom many people are wary. [...]
                > People who perhaps haven't even read him have their backs up because he's
                > associated with American evangelicals so much.
                 
                For what it's worth, Dale, I don't think this is exactly new. Your assessment here was equally true in the early 80s when I first encountered the Space Trilogy. At least, the same kind of attitude you describe is exactly what I saw growing up.
                 
                Jason
              • dale nelson
                That doesn t surprise me... I don t think it was that way circa 1975. But that s only an impression. Anyway, then, it seems that Lewis may have been widely
                Message 7 of 11 , Apr 21, 2011
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                  That doesn't surprise me... I don't think it was that way circa 1975.  But that's only an impression.

                  Anyway, then, it seems that Lewis may have been widely perceived as a cult author for American evangelicals for a generation.  This may have meant some loss of openness to him from readers outside that milieu.  On the other hand, and with this I close my barrage of impressions, I suppose we mostly have the loyalty of a generation of mostly evangelical Americans for the publication here of so many good books, e.g. the three huge, wonderful volumes of his letters, truly enjoyable volumes of reminiscences (Como, Graham, Poe), the fine Sayer biography, the edition of Warnie Lewis's diaries, etc.  I don't know that the non-evangelical or even non-Christian readership would have been ready to buy so much material about the man. 

                  "Cult author" goodies perhaps, but I wouldn't have missed them! -- at least not the ones I have mentioned. 

                  Dale



                  From: Jason Fisher <visualweasel@...>
                  To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thu, April 21, 2011 3:38:43 PM
                  Subject: Re: [mythsoc] CSL Bible redux

                   

                  > Increasingly, it seems, Lewis is an author of whom many people are wary. [...]
                  > People who perhaps haven't even read him have their backs up because he's
                  > associated with American evangelicals so much.
                   
                  For what it's worth, Dale, I don't think this is exactly new. Your assessment here was equally true in the early 80s when I first encountered the Space Trilogy. At least, the same kind of attitude you describe is exactly what I saw growing up.
                   
                  Jason
                • lynnmaudlin
                  Thanks, Andrew! I ve been hoping to hear from someone who actually has a copy!! :) -- Lynn --
                  Message 8 of 11 , Apr 21, 2011
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                    Thanks, Andrew! I've been hoping to hear from someone who actually has a copy!! :)

                    -- Lynn --


                    --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Lazo <andrewlazo@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I have one. I've read it. I like it.
                    >
                    > Lou is a friend who I tried to dissuade from creating this stink. Here's my
                    > deal (speaking in generalities):
                    >
                    >
                    > 1. Yup, it's marketing--HarperCollins owns the NRSV and CSL. More power to em,
                    > if this will sell more Bibles and more CSL. God help us all read more good
                    > things more often. I think they're aiming at two markets, likely--those who
                    > read the Bible but don't know Lewis well, and those who might know Lewis but not
                    > know the Bible.
                    > 2. The quotes seem to me well-placed and intriguing, and not obvious. In
                    > short, I find them fun and helpful and wish they'd included more. And as
                    > always, I find myself surprised by a Lewis quote, especially out of their
                    > original settings--he's eminently quotable, and out in the wild, even familiar
                    > quotes shed new light. It's quite well done in my opinion.
                    >
                    >
                    > 3. Yes, Lewis would have been appalled. But in a Lewisian move, let's look at
                    > the words "would have been." Whatever he would have been, I think CSL is now
                    > rather delighted that people might read the Bible because of his writing AND
                    > might read his writings so that they might understand God better. He was a
                    > self-proclaimed "hot-gospeller;" I'm guesisng he right now cares so little about
                    > his legacy that he'd gladly agree with Paul that whether of false motives or
                    > true, the Gospel should be preached. I betcha if his name and reputation and
                    > writing helps someone towards God, he'd be pleased.
                    >
                    >
                    > 4. The whole gender thing is a non-starter for me, esp. in this translation. I
                    > applaud any efforts to correct the damage done to women over millenia. Will
                    > such efforts prove artless at times, or overcorrective? Sure. Another way to
                    > say it is "human."I guess I'm saying that I need, constantly, more good news,
                    > more of what Tolkien called evangelium, "hope beyond the walls of the world,.
                    > poignant as grief." If this book helps folks get there, I dare not disagree.
                    > Let there arise more good news. I could use some.
                    >
                    > Mon deux centimes,
                    >
                    > Andrew
                    >
                  • lynnmaudlin
                    Well.. a qualified amen ...! I ve had too many occasions when God has pressed me to use a specific word and it turned out that word was significant to someone
                    Message 9 of 11 , Apr 21, 2011
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                      Well.. a qualified "amen"...! I've had too many occasions when God has pressed me to use a specific word and it turned out that word was significant to someone for whom I was praying *or* someone with me in prayer.

                      Charismatic Christians would recommend praying in tongues, allowing the Holy Spirit to give utterance when we don't know how to pray rightly. And, of course, there *are* times when deep silence in the presence of The Holy One of Israel is the only half-way reasonable response.

                      -- Lynn --


                      --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <andrewlazo@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Great discussion. Thanks for your response, friend. Let's meet each other in person before many days, no?
                      >
                      > I agree with almost everything but this made me pause:
                      >
                      > --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Carl F. Hostetter" <Aelfwine@> wrote:
                      >
                      > > Again, for me, the issue is that this supposed issue has been manufactured to advance the purposes of those who, I suspect, won't be happy until we intone "In the name of the Parent, and of the Child, and of the Holy Spirit"....
                      >
                      > I find such a prayer distasteful, certainly, but I am thoughtless and ragged enough theologically to assume that ANY prayer I make is going to have to face Divine translation. Lord, my limping metaphor trnslate, and o, do save me from the things I think I mean!
                      >
                      > CSL says:
                      >
                      > "Thoughts are but coins. Let not me take instead
                      > Of Thee their thin-worn image of Thy head
                      > From all my thoughts, even from my thoughts of Thee
                      > O Thou fair silence fall, and set me free.
                      >
                      > Amen?
                      >
                    • lynnmaudlin
                      Worth remembering that *in his own lifetime* his academic career was negatively impacted by his evangelism and open Christianity. While he and Dorothy L.
                      Message 10 of 11 , Apr 21, 2011
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                        Worth remembering that *in his own lifetime* his academic career was negatively impacted by his evangelism and open Christianity. While he and Dorothy L. Sayers and a handful of others worked hard to bring thoughtful and muscular Christianity to the British populace via radio, plays, broadcasting, etc., the personal cost to Lewis was quite profound.

                        So, in that sense, it's nothing new. Oxford dismissed him as a scholar because he was a visible Christian (why JRRT encouraged him to go to Cambridge and receive some of the respect he was due). And, of course, Oxford bemoaned JRRT as having wasted his talents as a linguist by pursuing all that fantastical stuff...

                        Perhaps the real lesson is that Oxford (academia in general?) may not have a great handle on what's truly important!! ;D

                        -- Lynn --


                        --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, Jason Fisher <visualweasel@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > Increasingly, it seems, Lewis is an author of whom many people are wary. [...]
                        > > People who perhaps haven't even read him have their backs up because he's
                        > > associated with American evangelicals so much.
                        >
                        > For what it's worth, Dale, I don't think this is exactly new. Your assessment
                        > here was equally true in the early 80s when I first encountered the Space
                        > Trilogy. At least, the same kind of attitude you describe is exactly what I saw
                        > growing up.
                        >
                        > Jason
                        >
                      • dale nelson
                        Here s Time s feature on CSL (you will have to sidestep some advertising in order to read it) -- written by Whittaker Chambers, author of Witness.
                        Message 11 of 11 , Apr 22, 2011
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                          Here's Time's feature on CSL (you will have to sidestep some advertising in order to read it) -- written by Whittaker Chambers, author of Witness.

                          http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,804196-1,00.html

                          Dale


                          From: lynnmaudlin <lynnmaudlin@...>
                          To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Thu, April 21, 2011 7:47:48 PM
                          Subject: [mythsoc] Re: CSL Bible redux

                           

                          Worth remembering that *in his own lifetime* his academic career was negatively impacted by his evangelism and open Christianity. While he and Dorothy L. Sayers and a handful of others worked hard to bring thoughtful and muscular Christianity to the British populace via radio, plays, broadcasting, etc., the personal cost to Lewis was quite profound.

                          So, in that sense, it's nothing new. Oxford dismissed him as a scholar because he was a visible Christian (why JRRT encouraged him to go to Cambridge and receive some of the respect he was due). And, of course, Oxford bemoaned JRRT as having wasted his talents as a linguist by pursuing all that fantastical stuff...

                          Perhaps the real lesson is that Oxford (academia in general?) may not have a great handle on what's truly important!! ;D

                          -- Lynn --

                          --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, Jason Fisher <visualweasel@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > Increasingly, it seems, Lewis is an author of whom many people are wary. [...]
                          > > People who perhaps haven't even read him have their backs up because he's
                          > > associated with American evangelicals so much.
                          >
                          > For what it's worth, Dale, I don't think this is exactly new. Your assessment
                          > here was equally true in the early 80s when I first encountered the Space
                          > Trilogy. At least, the same kind of attitude you describe is exactly what I saw
                          > growing up.
                          >
                          > Jason
                          >

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