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Re: [mythsoc] Shelob

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  • John Davis
    Thanks everyone! John ... From: Darrell A. Martin To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 10:45 PM Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Shelob ... Hi:
    Message 1 of 31 , Mar 28, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      Thanks everyone!
       
      John
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 10:45 PM
      Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Shelob

       

      On 3/25/2011 9:25 AM, Troels Forchhammer wrote:
      >
      >
      > On 25 March 2011 14:51, <aveeris523@... <mailto:aveeris523@...>>
      > wrote:
      >
      >
      > In a message dated 3/25/11 6:09:24 AM, john@...
      > <mailto:john@...> writes:
      >
      > Did any of the Free Peoples know about Shelob before Sam and
      > Frodo encountered her? Gandalf, perhaps, or Faramir since he
      > spent much time in Ithilien?
      >
      >
      > That's an interesting question John; the orcs certainly did! I'll
      > check _LOTR: A Reader's Companion_, Hammond & Scull.
      >
      >
      > My impression is that people had certainly known /about/ Shelob (hence
      > the name of the pass, the Pass of the Spider) but the specifics had been
      > forgotten, leaving it to simply 'have a bad name'. Unless I misremember,
      > there is somewhere a hint that Gandalf might have told Frodo more about
      > the pass and its name.
      >
      > /Troels

      Hi:

      Faramir told Frodo that when the name Cirith Ungol was brought up to the
      old loremasters, they were frightened by it and refused to discuss it.
      In the same conversation he mentioned that the young men of Gondor no
      longer ventured east of the Ithilien road.

      Clearly, among the old and learned the meaning of Cirith Ungol was still
      known, at the time of the War of the Ring. But the details were not
      discussed, and none of Faramir's generation had any experience of the pass.

      I think it is a bit of a stretch to think Frodo would have automatically
      translated "Cirith Ungol" to "mountain pass where one or more giant
      spiders currently live". Yes, he *could* have thought that, or suspected
      it (and perhaps he did). Regardless, however, Gollum was right when he
      said that if Master wanted to enter Mordor, he had to go some way, and
      that no way was safe; and Frodo was right when he rejected the idea of
      going back to the Black Gate and surrendering on the spot. Damn the
      spiders, full speed ahead.

      Darrell

    • John Davis
      Thanks everyone! John ... From: Darrell A. Martin To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 10:45 PM Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Shelob ... Hi:
      Message 31 of 31 , Mar 28, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        Thanks everyone!
         
        John
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 10:45 PM
        Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Shelob

         

        On 3/25/2011 9:25 AM, Troels Forchhammer wrote:
        >
        >
        > On 25 March 2011 14:51, <aveeris523@... <mailto:aveeris523@...>>
        > wrote:
        >
        >
        > In a message dated 3/25/11 6:09:24 AM, john@...
        > <mailto:john@...> writes:
        >
        > Did any of the Free Peoples know about Shelob before Sam and
        > Frodo encountered her? Gandalf, perhaps, or Faramir since he
        > spent much time in Ithilien?
        >
        >
        > That's an interesting question John; the orcs certainly did! I'll
        > check _LOTR: A Reader's Companion_, Hammond & Scull.
        >
        >
        > My impression is that people had certainly known /about/ Shelob (hence
        > the name of the pass, the Pass of the Spider) but the specifics had been
        > forgotten, leaving it to simply 'have a bad name'. Unless I misremember,
        > there is somewhere a hint that Gandalf might have told Frodo more about
        > the pass and its name.
        >
        > /Troels

        Hi:

        Faramir told Frodo that when the name Cirith Ungol was brought up to the
        old loremasters, they were frightened by it and refused to discuss it.
        In the same conversation he mentioned that the young men of Gondor no
        longer ventured east of the Ithilien road.

        Clearly, among the old and learned the meaning of Cirith Ungol was still
        known, at the time of the War of the Ring. But the details were not
        discussed, and none of Faramir's generation had any experience of the pass.

        I think it is a bit of a stretch to think Frodo would have automatically
        translated "Cirith Ungol" to "mountain pass where one or more giant
        spiders currently live". Yes, he *could* have thought that, or suspected
        it (and perhaps he did). Regardless, however, Gollum was right when he
        said that if Master wanted to enter Mordor, he had to go some way, and
        that no way was safe; and Frodo was right when he rejected the idea of
        going back to the Black Gate and surrendering on the spot. Damn the
        spiders, full speed ahead.

        Darrell

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