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Gollum's rescuers

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  • John Davis
    Hi, I have stumbled on what appears to be a small discrepency, and wondered if anyone could help clarify the matter... When Gollum is being held captive by
    Message 1 of 9 , Oct 18, 2010
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      Hi,
       
      I have stumbled on what appears to be a small discrepency, and wondered if anyone could help clarify the matter...
       
      When Gollum is being held captive by Thranduil's elves, the elves are attacked by orcs and Gollum escapes. In Legolas's account of this at the Council of Elrond, he says that the orcs 'came from over the mountains, and were unused to woods'. This would imply that they were either from Goblin-town or Moria. However, in the Hunt for Gollum (UT), it is spies from Dol Guldur who discover that Gollum is being held captive, in which case it would seem more likely that orcs from Dol Guldur would have attacked Thranduil's elves, thus not coming over the mountains and certainly being used to the woods in which they dwelled. (Especially as it was Sauron who gave the order, and it is not certain that the orcs of Goblin-town or Moria were particularly under his control.) Indeed, some online sources state that 'orcs from Dol Guldur attacked the elves who were guarding Gollum' (Thain's Book), though the source of this is unclear.
       
      So I was wondering if anyone could shed light on which force attacked Thranduil's elves?
       
      John
    • Jason Fisher
      ... There s one person who could; unfortunately, he died in 1973. *smirk*
      Message 2 of 9 , Oct 18, 2010
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        > So I was wondering if anyone could shed light on which force attacked
        > Thranduil's elves?
         
        There's one person who could; unfortunately, he died in 1973. *smirk*
      • Doug Kane
        ... But, of course, he probably would have given three different answers on three different days. ... No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG -
        Message 3 of 9 , Oct 18, 2010
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          >> So I was wondering if anyone could shed light on which force
          attacked
          >> Thranduil's elves?
           
          >There's one person who could; unfortunately, he died in 1973.
          *smirk*
           
          But, of course, he probably would have given three different answers on three different days.


          No virus found in this message.
          Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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        • scribbler@scribblerworks.us
          Well, since HUNT FOR GOLLUM is an adaptation, I wouldn t assign authority to any of its statements. Therefore I would stick with what is actually in Tolkien s
          Message 4 of 9 , Oct 18, 2010
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            Well, since HUNT FOR GOLLUM is an adaptation, I wouldn't assign authority
            to any of its statements. Therefore I would stick with what is actually
            in Tolkien's text, that Thranduil's elves were attacked by orcs unused to
            the woods (or at least that that is what they believed).

            In terms of the adaptation, I'm not surprised at the choice to make the
            attacking orcs come from Dol Guldur, because that makes for a greater
            unity with the Bigger Story.

            Sarah

            > Hi,
            >
            > I have stumbled on what appears to be a small discrepency, and wondered if
            > anyone could help clarify the matter...
            >
            > When Gollum is being held captive by Thranduil's elves, the elves are
            > attacked by orcs and Gollum escapes. In Legolas's account of this at the
            > Council of Elrond, he says that the orcs 'came from over the mountains,
            > and were unused to woods'. This would imply that they were either from
            > Goblin-town or Moria. However, in the Hunt for Gollum (UT), it is spies
            > from Dol Guldur who discover that Gollum is being held captive, in which
            > case it would seem more likely that orcs from Dol Guldur would have
            > attacked Thranduil's elves, thus not coming over the mountains and
            > certainly being used to the woods in which they dwelled. (Especially as it
            > was Sauron who gave the order, and it is not certain that the orcs of
            > Goblin-town or Moria were particularly under his control.) Indeed, some
            > online sources state that 'orcs from Dol Guldur attacked the elves who
            > were guarding Gollum' (Thain's Book), though the source of this is
            > unclear.
            >
            > So I was wondering if anyone could shed light on which force attacked
            > Thranduil's elves?
            >
            > John
          • Jason Fisher
            Oh, that was just an accidental slip, Sarah. John meant The Hunt for the Ring , notes in the Professor s own hand, published posthumously in Unfinished
            Message 5 of 9 , Oct 18, 2010
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              Oh, that was just an accidental slip, Sarah. John meant "The Hunt for the Ring", notes in the Professor's own hand, published posthumously in Unfinished Tales.


              From: "scribbler@..." <scribbler@...>
              To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Mon, October 18, 2010 12:43:11 PM
              Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Gollum's rescuers

               

              Well, since HUNT FOR GOLLUM is an adaptation, I wouldn't assign authority
              to any of its statements. Therefore I would stick with what is actually
              in Tolkien's text, that Thranduil's elves were attacked by orcs unused to
              the woods (or at least that that is what they believed).

              In terms of the adaptation, I'm not surprised at the choice to make the
              attacking orcs come from Dol Guldur, because that makes for a greater
              unity with the Bigger Story.

              Sarah

              > Hi,
              >
              > I have stumbled on what appears to be a small discrepency, and wondered if
              > anyone could help clarify the matter...
              >
              > When Gollum is being held captive by Thranduil's elves, the elves are
              > attacked by orcs and Gollum escapes. In Legolas's account of this at the
              > Council of Elrond, he says that the orcs 'came from over the mountains,
              > and were unused to woods'. This would imply that they were either
              from
              > Goblin-town or Moria. However, in the Hunt for Gollum (UT), it is spies
              > from Dol Guldur who discover that Gollum is being held captive, in which
              > case it would seem more likely that orcs from Dol Guldur would have
              > attacked Thranduil's elves, thus not coming over the mountains and
              > certainly being used to the woods in which they dwelled. (Especially as it
              > was Sauron who gave the order, and it is not certain that the orcs of
              > Goblin-town or Moria were particularly under his control.) Indeed, some
              > online sources state that 'orcs from Dol Guldur attacked the elves who
              > were guarding Gollum' (Thain's Book), though the source of this is
              > unclear.
              >
              > So I was wondering if anyone could shed light on which force attacked
              > Thranduil's elves?
              >
              > John

            • David Bratman
              John means The Hunt for the Ring which is a text by Tolkien in the book _Unfinished Tales_. DB
              Message 6 of 9 , Oct 18, 2010
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                John means "The Hunt for the Ring" which is a text by Tolkien in the book _Unfinished Tales_.

                DB


                -----Original Message-----
                >From: scribbler@...
                >Sent: Oct 18, 2010 10:43 AM
                >To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                >Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Gollum's rescuers
                >
                >Well, since HUNT FOR GOLLUM is an adaptation, I wouldn't assign authority
                >to any of its statements. Therefore I would stick with what is actually
                >in Tolkien's text, that Thranduil's elves were attacked by orcs unused to
                >the woods (or at least that that is what they believed).
                >
                >In terms of the adaptation, I'm not surprised at the choice to make the
                >attacking orcs come from Dol Guldur, because that makes for a greater
                >unity with the Bigger Story.
                >
                >Sarah
                >
                >> Hi,
                >>
                >> I have stumbled on what appears to be a small discrepency, and wondered if
                >> anyone could help clarify the matter...
                >>
                >> When Gollum is being held captive by Thranduil's elves, the elves are
                >> attacked by orcs and Gollum escapes. In Legolas's account of this at the
                >> Council of Elrond, he says that the orcs 'came from over the mountains,
                >> and were unused to woods'. This would imply that they were either from
                >> Goblin-town or Moria. However, in the Hunt for Gollum (UT), it is spies
                >> from Dol Guldur who discover that Gollum is being held captive, in which
                >> case it would seem more likely that orcs from Dol Guldur would have
                >> attacked Thranduil's elves, thus not coming over the mountains and
                >> certainly being used to the woods in which they dwelled. (Especially as it
                >> was Sauron who gave the order, and it is not certain that the orcs of
                >> Goblin-town or Moria were particularly under his control.) Indeed, some
                >> online sources state that 'orcs from Dol Guldur attacked the elves who
                >> were guarding Gollum' (Thain's Book), though the source of this is
                >> unclear.
                >>
                >> So I was wondering if anyone could shed light on which force attacked
                >> Thranduil's elves?
                >>
                >> John
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >------------------------------------
                >
                >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.orgYahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
              • scribbler@scribblerworks.us
                LOL - I stand corrected. Heh. Am I too Hollywood that my mind went to that fan film? S.
                Message 7 of 9 , Oct 18, 2010
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                  LOL - I stand corrected. Heh. Am I "too Hollywood" that my mind went to
                  that fan film?

                  S.


                  > John means "The Hunt for the Ring" which is a text by Tolkien in the book
                  > _Unfinished Tales_.
                  >
                  > DB
                  >
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  >>From: scribbler@...
                  >>Sent: Oct 18, 2010 10:43 AM
                  >>To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                  >>Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Gollum's rescuers
                  >>
                  >>Well, since HUNT FOR GOLLUM is an adaptation, I wouldn't assign authority
                  >>to any of its statements. Therefore I would stick with what is actually
                  >>in Tolkien's text, that Thranduil's elves were attacked by orcs unused to
                  >>the woods (or at least that that is what they believed).
                  >>
                  >>In terms of the adaptation, I'm not surprised at the choice to make the
                  >>attacking orcs come from Dol Guldur, because that makes for a greater
                  >>unity with the Bigger Story.
                  >>
                  >>Sarah
                  >>
                  >>> Hi,
                  >>>
                  >>> I have stumbled on what appears to be a small discrepency, and wondered
                  >>> if
                  >>> anyone could help clarify the matter...
                  >>>
                  >>> When Gollum is being held captive by Thranduil's elves, the elves are
                  >>> attacked by orcs and Gollum escapes. In Legolas's account of this at
                  >>> the
                  >>> Council of Elrond, he says that the orcs 'came from over the mountains,
                  >>> and were unused to woods'. This would imply that they were either from
                  >>> Goblin-town or Moria. However, in the Hunt for Gollum (UT), it is spies
                  >>> from Dol Guldur who discover that Gollum is being held captive, in
                  >>> which
                  >>> case it would seem more likely that orcs from Dol Guldur would have
                  >>> attacked Thranduil's elves, thus not coming over the mountains and
                  >>> certainly being used to the woods in which they dwelled. (Especially as
                  >>> it
                  >>> was Sauron who gave the order, and it is not certain that the orcs of
                  >>> Goblin-town or Moria were particularly under his control.) Indeed, some
                  >>> online sources state that 'orcs from Dol Guldur attacked the elves who
                  >>> were guarding Gollum' (Thain's Book), though the source of this is
                  >>> unclear.
                  >>>
                  >>> So I was wondering if anyone could shed light on which force attacked
                  >>> Thranduil's elves?
                  >>>
                  >>> John
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>------------------------------------
                  >>
                  >>The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.orgYahoo! Groups Links
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                • "Beregond, Anders Stenström"
                  ... Maybe the mountains means the Grey Mountains. They were known to be simply stiff with goblins, hobgoblins and orcs of the worst description (Gandalf in
                  Message 8 of 9 , Oct 18, 2010
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                    Jason Fisher wrote:

                    > Oh, that was just an accidental slip, Sarah. John meant "The Hunt for
                    > _the Ring_", notes in the Professor's own hand, published posthumously
                    > in /Unfinished Tales/.
                    >
                    > > [. . .]
                    > > When Gollum is being held captive by Thranduil's elves, the elves are
                    > > attacked by orcs and Gollum escapes. In Legolas's account of this at the
                    > > Council of Elrond, he says that the orcs 'came from over the mountains,
                    > > and were unused to woods'. This would imply that they were either from
                    > > Goblin-town or Moria. However, in the Hunt for Gollum (UT), it is spies
                    > > from Dol Guldur who discover that Gollum is being held captive, in which
                    > > case it would seem more likely that orcs from Dol Guldur would have
                    > > attacked Thranduil's elves, thus not coming over the mountains and
                    > > certainly being used to the woods in which they dwelled.

                    Maybe "the mountains" means the Grey Mountains. They were known to
                    be "simply stiff with goblins, hobgoblins and orcs of the worst
                    description" (Gandalf in _The Hobbit_) before the Battle of Five
                    Armies, and may have been badly infested again at the time of the
                    War of the Ring.
                    One may speculate that the diversionary raid was launched from
                    there because a raid from Dol Guldur was sure to have been detected
                    and met too far away from Thranduil's halls to affect the guard on
                    Gollum.

                    > > (Especially as it was
                    > > Sauron who gave the order, and it is not certain that the orcs of
                    > > Goblin-town or Moria were particularly under his control.)

                    That would be true about the Grey Mountains as well. One will
                    have to assume either that Sauron somehow was able to make the
                    orcs there strike against Thranduil, or that he sent a force from
                    Mordor a long way round.

                    Chivalrously,

                    Beregond
                  • John Davis
                    Sorry, yes, I meant The Hunt for the Ring. A slip of the brain. The idea that the mountains are the Grey Mountains is an interesting one. It would also help
                    Message 9 of 9 , Oct 19, 2010
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                      Sorry, yes, I meant The Hunt for the Ring. A slip of the brain.
                       
                      The idea that the mountains are the Grey Mountains is an interesting one. It would also help explain Legolas's statement that they came from 'over the mountains', since that implies beyond rather than within, and there are at least lands beyond the Grey Mountains which might have orcs in large numbers.
                       
                      Thanks for people's comments,
                       
                      John
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 9:24 PM
                      Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Gollum's rescuers

                       

                      Jason Fisher wrote:

                      > Oh, that was just an accidental slip, Sarah. John meant "The Hunt for
                      > _the Ring_", notes in the Professor's own hand, published posthumously
                      > in /Unfinished Tales/.
                      >
                      > > [. . .]
                      > > When Gollum is being held captive by Thranduil's elves, the elves are
                      > > attacked by orcs and Gollum escapes. In Legolas's account of this at the
                      > > Council of Elrond, he says that the orcs 'came from over the mountains,
                      > > and were unused to woods'. This would imply that they were either from
                      > > Goblin-town or Moria. However, in the Hunt for Gollum (UT), it is spies
                      > > from Dol Guldur who discover that Gollum is being held captive, in which
                      > > case it would seem more likely that orcs from Dol Guldur would have
                      > > attacked Thranduil's elves, thus not coming over the mountains and
                      > > certainly being used to the woods in which they dwelled.

                      Maybe "the mountains" means the Grey Mountains. They were known to
                      be "simply stiff with goblins, hobgoblins and orcs of the worst
                      description" (Gandalf in _The Hobbit_) before the Battle of Five
                      Armies, and may have been badly infested again at the time of the
                      War of the Ring.
                      One may speculate that the diversionary raid was launched from
                      there because a raid from Dol Guldur was sure to have been detected
                      and met too far away from Thranduil's halls to affect the guard on
                      Gollum.

                      > > (Especially as it was
                      > > Sauron who gave the order, and it is not certain that the orcs of
                      > > Goblin-town or Moria were particularly under his control.)

                      That would be true about the Grey Mountains as well. One will
                      have to assume either that Sauron somehow was able to make the
                      orcs there strike against Thranduil, or that he sent a force from
                      Mordor a long way round.

                      Chivalrously,

                      Beregond

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