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Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien-related sword in Oxford pub?

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  • John Rateliff
    ... Ah! Thanks for clarifying that. ... That sounds like a good guess. I don t take the story of Lewis dueling with a student too seriously, but if there was a
    Message 1 of 18 , Oct 4, 2010
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      On Oct 3, 2010, at 8:25 PM, Wayne G. Hammond wrote:
      > It's part of the U.K. Series Three DVD set, and part of the U.S. Series Two DVD set, both issued in 2009. The U.S. versions of the episodes are said to be cut by about ten minutes each.

      Ah! Thanks for clarifying that.


      On Oct 4, 2010, at 7:52 AM, icelofangeln wrote:
      > Although I have no doubt that the Inspector Morse explanation is the correct one, it is the case that Lewis kept what was described as a "cavalry sabre" in his umbrella-stand at Magdalen (I suspect the "sabre" was in actuality Warnie's Army dress sword).

      That sounds like a good guess. I don't take the story of Lewis dueling with a student too seriously, but if there was a sword in Lewis's room to have inspired the legend that's a plausible explanation for why.

      --JDR
      current reading: JRRT's SANCTIFYING MYTH, by Birzer [2002]
      current audiobook: THE BOOK OF EZEKIEL
    • dale nelson
      Do you have a source for that, by the way? I wonder if this sword was an ornamental thing, like the one that caught my fancy in a second-hand store when I was
      Message 2 of 18 , Oct 4, 2010
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        Do you have a source for that, by the way?

        I wonder if this sword was an ornamental thing, like the one that caught my fancy in a second-hand store when I was a kid.  (I secured the sword for $5 and my bike!)

        Dale Nelson



        From: icelofangeln <solicitr@...>
        To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Mon, October 4, 2010 9:52:37 AM
        Subject: [mythsoc] Re: Tolkien-related sword in Oxford pub?

         


        Although I have no doubt that the Inspector Morse explanation is the correct one, it is the case that Lewis kept what was described as a "cavalry sabre" in his umbrella-stand at Magdalen (I suspect the "sabre" was in actuality Warnie's Army dress sword).


      • John Rateliff
        ... Can t remember offhand where I ve read this, but it s from a pretty well-known source. I ll try to remember to flag it next time I I come across it. Not
        Message 3 of 18 , Oct 4, 2010
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          On Oct 4, 2010, at 4:53 PM, dale nelson wrote:
          Do you have a source for that, by the way?

          Can't remember offhand where I've read this, but it's from a pretty well-known source. I'll try to remember to flag it next time I I come across it.

          Not that it's relevant, but it did just occur to me that we do know of one Inkling who kept a ceremonial sword in his office: Charles Williams. He used it for rituals with his disciples who came to visit him (cf. LETTERS TO LALANGE). I wonder what ever became of it -- did it pass back to his family (widow & son), or did some other member of his order inherit it?

          --John R.



        • Cole Matson
          Wow, you guys are good. Thanks for that. I m pretty sure the Lewis episode explains the tourist s inquiry. (And I now want to see it.) I ll let the barkeep
          Message 4 of 18 , Oct 5, 2010
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            Wow, you guys are good. Thanks for that. I'm pretty sure the Lewis episode explains the tourist's inquiry. (And I now want to see it.) I'll let the barkeep know next time I drop into the E&C.

            Thanks!

            Cole
          • Mike Foster
            With all these Lewises, it s hard to tell Jack and the Detective Inspector apart, much less Meriwether. I too recall the anecdote about Lewis pulling out a
            Message 5 of 18 , Oct 5, 2010
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              With all these Lewises, it's hard to tell Jack and the Detective Inspector apart, much less Meriwether.
               
              I too recall the anecdote about Lewis pulling out a sword--could it've been Warnie's?--and threatening a student.  But is it true?
               
              Mike

              Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 12:44 AM
              Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Tolkien-related sword in Oxford pub?

               


              On Oct 4, 2010, at 4:53 PM, dale nelson wrote:
              Do you have a source for that, by the way?

              Can't remember offhand where I've read this, but it's from a pretty well-known source. I'll try to remember to flag it next time I I come across it.

              Not that it's relevant, but it did just occur to me that we do know of one Inkling who kept a ceremonial sword in his office: Charles Williams. He used it for rituals with his disciples who came to visit him (cf. LETTERS TO LALANGE). I wonder what ever became of it -- did it pass back to his family (widow & son), or did some other member of his order inherit it?

              --John R.





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            • dale nelson
              I ve no idea, but wouldn t it have been something if the aged Arthur Machen had received it and then passed it to -- ? ________________________________ From:
              Message 6 of 18 , Oct 5, 2010
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                I've no idea, but wouldn't it have been something if the aged Arthur Machen had received it and then passed it to -- ?



                From: John Rateliff <sacnoth@...>
                To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tue, October 5, 2010 12:44:02 AM
                Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Tolkien-related sword in Oxford pub?

                 


                On Oct 4, 2010, at 4:53 PM, dale nelson wrote:
                Do you have a source for that, by the way?

                Can't remember offhand where I've read this, but it's from a pretty well-known source. I'll try to remember to flag it next time I I come across it.

                Not that it's relevant, but it did just occur to me that we do know of one Inkling who kept a ceremonial sword in his office: Charles Williams. He used it for rituals with his disciples who came to visit him (cf. LETTERS TO LALANGE). I wonder what ever became of it -- did it pass back to his family (widow & son), or did some other member of his order inherit it?

                --John R.




              • Mike Foster
                And now...after many years...it s come down to...Jimmy Page. Mike From: dale nelson Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 2:47 PM To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                Message 7 of 18 , Oct 5, 2010
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                  And now...after many years...it's come down to...Jimmy Page.
                   
                  Mike

                  Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 2:47 PM
                  Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Tolkien-related sword in Oxford pub?

                   

                  I've no idea, but wouldn't it have been something if the aged Arthur Machen had received it and then passed it to -- ?



                  From: John Rateliff <sacnoth@...>
                  To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tue, October 5, 2010 12:44:02 AM
                  Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Tolkien-related sword in Oxford pub?

                   


                  On Oct 4, 2010, at 4:53 PM, dale nelson wrote:
                  Do you have a source for that, by the way?

                  Can't remember offhand where I've read this, but it's from a pretty well-known source. I'll try to remember to flag it next time I I come across it.

                  Not that it's relevant, but it did just occur to me that we do know of one Inkling who kept a ceremonial sword in his office: Charles Williams. He used it for rituals with his disciples who came to visit him (cf. LETTERS TO LALANGE). I wonder what ever became of it -- did it pass back to his family (widow & son), or did some other member of his order inherit it?

                  --John R.






                  __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5506 (20101005) __________

                  The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

                  http://www.eset.com


                  __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5506 (20101005) __________

                  The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

                  http://www.eset.com
                • John Rateliff
                  ... Although he outlived Williams by a year, Machen is unlikely, but his old friend Waite would have been an ideal choice, had he not himself died three years
                  Message 8 of 18 , Oct 6, 2010
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                    On Oct 5, 2010, at 12:47 PM, dale nelson wrote:
                    I've no idea, but wouldn't it have been something if the aged Arthur Machen had received it and then passed it to -- ?

                    Although he outlived Williams by a year, Machen is unlikely, but his old friend Waite would have been an ideal choice, had he not himself died three years earlier. Williams had been in Watie's Order and had been Waite's choice to succeed him as its leader, but instead left to found his own Order (of the Coinherence). There's an interesting, if brief, discussion of this in G. A. Gilbert's biography of A.E.Waite.

                    Crowley, in the words of Monty P., would have been Right Out.


                    On Oct 5, 2010, at 11.25 AM, Mike Foster wrote:
                    With all these Lewises, it's hard to tell Jack and the Detective Inspector apart, much less Meriwether.

                    That's easy: Meriwether is the one who killed himself, CSL is the one relevant to this list, and Inspector is a sidekick given his own (tv-only) sequel-series.

                    --John R.







                  • "Beregond, Anders Stenström"
                    ... Speaking of this, has anybody else here read _Heaven s War_, a comic book with text by Micah Harris and art by Michael Gaydos, in which Charles Williams,
                    Message 9 of 18 , Oct 12, 2010
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                      John Rateliff wrote:

                      > Williams had been in Watie's Order and had been
                      > Waite's choice to succeed him as its leader, but instead left to found
                      > his own Order (of the Coinherence). There's an interesting, if brief,
                      > discussion of this in G. A. Gil bert's biography of A.E.Waite.
                      >
                      > Crowley, in the words of Monty P., would have been Right Out.

                      Speaking of this, has anybody else here read _Heaven's War_, a comic
                      book with text by Micah Harris and art by Michael Gaydos, in which
                      Charles Williams, helped by Lewis and Tolkien, stops the evil plans of
                      Crowley? I found it a lot better than what that description sounds!

                      Chivalrously,

                      Beregond
                    • David Bratman
                      ... I found it a lot worse than the description sounds.
                      Message 10 of 18 , Oct 12, 2010
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                        "Beregond, Anders Stenström" <beregond@...> wrote:

                        > Speaking of this, has anybody else here read _Heaven's War_, a comic
                        >book with text by Micah Harris and art by Michael Gaydos, in which
                        >Charles Williams, helped by Lewis and Tolkien, stops the evil plans of
                        >Crowley? I found it a lot better than what that description sounds!

                        I found it a lot worse than the description sounds.
                      • John Rateliff
                        Hi Anders Yes, I ve read it, and liked it more than David did. I give the author points for focusing attention on Williams, who s rather neglected in stories
                        Message 11 of 18 , Oct 14, 2010
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                          Hi Anders
                          Yes, I've read it, and liked it more than David did.
                          I give the author points for focusing attention on Williams, who's rather neglected in stories in which the Inklings feature as characters. But I was disappointed that the author didn't know much of anything about Tolkien, and so has him behave throughout as he imagines a traditionalist Catholic of the time wd have. Too bad. I'd say HEAVEN'S WAR is an interesting idea that didn't quite come off.




                          On Oct 12, 2010, at 2:02 PM, Beregond, Anders Stenström wrote:

                          > John Rateliff wrote:
                          >> Williams had been in Watie's Order and had been
                          >> Waite's choice to succeed him as its leader, but instead left to found
                          >> his own Order (of the Coinherence). There's an interesting, if brief,
                          >> discussion of this in G. A. Gil bert's biography of A.E.Waite.
                          >>
                          >> Crowley, in the words of Monty P., would have been Right Out.
                          >
                          > Speaking of this, has anybody else here read _Heaven's War_, a comic
                          > book with text by Micah Harris and art by Michael Gaydos, in which
                          > Charles Williams, helped by Lewis and Tolkien, stops the evil plans of
                          > Crowley? I found it a lot better than what that description sounds!
                          >
                          > Chivalrously,
                          >
                          > Beregond
                        • artiephesus
                          I ve just finished it, due to the mention of it here (the concept was too good for me to not check out for myself, and it was available in my library system).
                          Message 12 of 18 , Oct 20, 2010
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                            I've just finished it, due to the mention of it here (the concept was too good for me to not check out for myself, and it was available in my library system). I agree with John re: Tolkien -- clearly, Harris wasn't particularly well versed in Tolkien's philosophy or writing (he cites the film version of FELLOWSHIP in his notes, saying that the story of the creation of orcs is told there, but is -- he believes -- actually told in THE SILMARILLION). Harris is most definitely interested in Williams, and I think his use of Williams's own writings, and the depiction of his relationship with Lewis, is nicely done.

                            I also have to admit that I love the use of Williams vs. Crowley -- as a teaching assistant, I helped a professor design a role-playing adventure scenario around a similar premise for students on a study tour of England. (Exploring concepts of myth and storytelling through adventure role-playing to reinforce a mythology course is particularly enjoyable for me -- but then, I'm an RPG nerd outside of scholarship, as well.) We took far greater liberties than Harris does!

                            Overall, I'm glad to have read it, and I particularly enjoyed the notes, but agree that it's a particularly bad representation of Tolkien.

                            -Alana

                            --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, John Rateliff <sacnoth@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi Anders
                            > Yes, I've read it, and liked it more than David did.
                            > I give the author points for focusing attention on Williams, who's rather neglected in stories in which the Inklings feature as characters. But I was disappointed that the author didn't know much of anything about Tolkien, and so has him behave throughout as he imagines a traditionalist Catholic of the time wd have. Too bad. I'd say HEAVEN'S WAR is an interesting idea that didn't quite come off.
                            >
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