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Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien-related sword in Oxford pub?

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  • WendellWag@aol.com
    According to some searching online I ve just done, in this episode someone is killed with a sword. This sword is referred to in some of the webpages I ve
    Message 1 of 18 , Oct 3, 2010
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      According to some searching online I've just done, in this episode someone is killed with a sword.  This sword is referred to in some of the webpages I've found as Peter's Sword of Truth from The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe.  I don't know if there is any such sword mentioned in the Narnia books.  I don't know if any such thing happens in the episode.  I don't know how the episode explains there being such a sword.  Does some Narnia fan in the episode make a sword and declare it to be modeled on the one in the Narnia books?  Did the customer somehow conflate this all and decide that there was a sword related to Tolkien at the Eagle and the Child?
       
      Wendell Wagner
       
      In a message dated 10/3/2010 5:21:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, linda@... writes:
       

      Probably a ridiculous thought- but, recently, there was an episode on Innspector Lewis (Morse's assistant) about the Inklings,  and a sword figured in the mystery. The story was mostly about Lewis (our Lewis, Jack- not the TV detective) but I believe Tolkien's name was mentioned a couple of times. Might this have been what the tourist was referring to?

      Linda DeMars

      On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Cole Matson <ccematson@...> wrote:
       

      Figured I'd call upon the minds of the masses.

      I was sitting in the Eagle & Child this afternoon, and I overheard a customer asking the bartender if she knew the name of a local pub he had heard of that contained a sword that had some relation to Tolkien. Neither the bartender nor I had any idea what he was talking about, and since we loathe not being able to answer Inklings-related pub questions, we're trying to find out. Google has been no help. Any thoughts?

      Thanks,
      Cole Matson


    • John Rateliff
      Hi Cole As a few other folks pointed out, this comes entirely from the episode of LEWIS (the tv-sequel to INSPECTOR MORSE) which showed such a sword ( the
      Message 2 of 18 , Oct 3, 2010
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        Hi Cole

           As a few other folks pointed out, this comes entirely from the episode of LEWIS (the tv-sequel to INSPECTOR MORSE) which showed such a sword ("the Sword of Peter") in the Eagle & Child. It's important to the plot, since a character gets killed with it. There's nothing in any of Lewis's books to back it up: it's entirely an invention of the scriptwriters.  And it's linked to Lewis's Narnia, not to Tolkien's Middle-earth.

           The episode in question is named ALLEGORY OF LOVE; I gather it was the first show of the third season. So far as I can tell, it's not yet out on dvd over here or over there, nor on hulu.com. You can see it on youtube.com, if you like (just go to their site and type in "Inspector Lewis" and "Allegory of Love").  I saw it when it was broadcast on PBS. It's interesting for featuring a pseudo-Pullman against a background of Lewis & Tolkien, but ends with firmly and rather smugly repudiating readers of fantasy as shallow escapists incapable of dealing with the real world.

           Hope this helps.

        --John R.




        On Oct 3, 2010, at 8:14 AM, Cole Matson wrote:
        Figured I'd call upon the minds of the masses.

        I was sitting in the Eagle & Child this afternoon, and I overheard a customer asking the bartender if she knew the name of a local pub he had heard of that contained a sword that had some relation to Tolkien. Neither the bartender nor I had any idea what he was talking about, and since we loathe not being able to answer Inklings-related pub questions, we're trying to find out. Google has been no help. Any thoughts?

        Thanks,
        Cole Matson

      • Wayne G. Hammond
        ... It s part of the U.K. Series Three DVD set, and part of the U.S. Series Two DVD set, both issued in 2009. The U.S. versions of the episodes are said to be
        Message 3 of 18 , Oct 3, 2010
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          The episode in question is named ALLEGORY OF LOVE; I gather it was the first show of the third season. So far as I can tell, it's not yet out on dvd over here or over there, nor on hulu.com.

          It's part of the U.K. Series Three DVD set, and part of the U.S. Series Two DVD set, both issued in 2009. The U.S. versions of the episodes are said to be cut by about ten minutes each.

          Wayne

        • icelofangeln
          Although I have no doubt that the Inspector Morse explanation is the correct one, it is the case that Lewis kept what was described as a cavalry sabre in his
          Message 4 of 18 , Oct 4, 2010
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            Although I have no doubt that the Inspector Morse explanation is the correct one, it is the case that Lewis kept what was described as a "cavalry sabre" in his umbrella-stand at Magdalen (I suspect the "sabre" was in actuality Warnie's Army dress sword).
          • John Rateliff
            ... Ah! Thanks for clarifying that. ... That sounds like a good guess. I don t take the story of Lewis dueling with a student too seriously, but if there was a
            Message 5 of 18 , Oct 4, 2010
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              On Oct 3, 2010, at 8:25 PM, Wayne G. Hammond wrote:
              > It's part of the U.K. Series Three DVD set, and part of the U.S. Series Two DVD set, both issued in 2009. The U.S. versions of the episodes are said to be cut by about ten minutes each.

              Ah! Thanks for clarifying that.


              On Oct 4, 2010, at 7:52 AM, icelofangeln wrote:
              > Although I have no doubt that the Inspector Morse explanation is the correct one, it is the case that Lewis kept what was described as a "cavalry sabre" in his umbrella-stand at Magdalen (I suspect the "sabre" was in actuality Warnie's Army dress sword).

              That sounds like a good guess. I don't take the story of Lewis dueling with a student too seriously, but if there was a sword in Lewis's room to have inspired the legend that's a plausible explanation for why.

              --JDR
              current reading: JRRT's SANCTIFYING MYTH, by Birzer [2002]
              current audiobook: THE BOOK OF EZEKIEL
            • dale nelson
              Do you have a source for that, by the way? I wonder if this sword was an ornamental thing, like the one that caught my fancy in a second-hand store when I was
              Message 6 of 18 , Oct 4, 2010
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                Do you have a source for that, by the way?

                I wonder if this sword was an ornamental thing, like the one that caught my fancy in a second-hand store when I was a kid.  (I secured the sword for $5 and my bike!)

                Dale Nelson



                From: icelofangeln <solicitr@...>
                To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Mon, October 4, 2010 9:52:37 AM
                Subject: [mythsoc] Re: Tolkien-related sword in Oxford pub?

                 


                Although I have no doubt that the Inspector Morse explanation is the correct one, it is the case that Lewis kept what was described as a "cavalry sabre" in his umbrella-stand at Magdalen (I suspect the "sabre" was in actuality Warnie's Army dress sword).


              • John Rateliff
                ... Can t remember offhand where I ve read this, but it s from a pretty well-known source. I ll try to remember to flag it next time I I come across it. Not
                Message 7 of 18 , Oct 4, 2010
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                  On Oct 4, 2010, at 4:53 PM, dale nelson wrote:
                  Do you have a source for that, by the way?

                  Can't remember offhand where I've read this, but it's from a pretty well-known source. I'll try to remember to flag it next time I I come across it.

                  Not that it's relevant, but it did just occur to me that we do know of one Inkling who kept a ceremonial sword in his office: Charles Williams. He used it for rituals with his disciples who came to visit him (cf. LETTERS TO LALANGE). I wonder what ever became of it -- did it pass back to his family (widow & son), or did some other member of his order inherit it?

                  --John R.



                • Cole Matson
                  Wow, you guys are good. Thanks for that. I m pretty sure the Lewis episode explains the tourist s inquiry. (And I now want to see it.) I ll let the barkeep
                  Message 8 of 18 , Oct 5, 2010
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                    Wow, you guys are good. Thanks for that. I'm pretty sure the Lewis episode explains the tourist's inquiry. (And I now want to see it.) I'll let the barkeep know next time I drop into the E&C.

                    Thanks!

                    Cole
                  • Mike Foster
                    With all these Lewises, it s hard to tell Jack and the Detective Inspector apart, much less Meriwether. I too recall the anecdote about Lewis pulling out a
                    Message 9 of 18 , Oct 5, 2010
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                      With all these Lewises, it's hard to tell Jack and the Detective Inspector apart, much less Meriwether.
                       
                      I too recall the anecdote about Lewis pulling out a sword--could it've been Warnie's?--and threatening a student.  But is it true?
                       
                      Mike

                      Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 12:44 AM
                      Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Tolkien-related sword in Oxford pub?

                       


                      On Oct 4, 2010, at 4:53 PM, dale nelson wrote:
                      Do you have a source for that, by the way?

                      Can't remember offhand where I've read this, but it's from a pretty well-known source. I'll try to remember to flag it next time I I come across it.

                      Not that it's relevant, but it did just occur to me that we do know of one Inkling who kept a ceremonial sword in his office: Charles Williams. He used it for rituals with his disciples who came to visit him (cf. LETTERS TO LALANGE). I wonder what ever became of it -- did it pass back to his family (widow & son), or did some other member of his order inherit it?

                      --John R.





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                    • dale nelson
                      I ve no idea, but wouldn t it have been something if the aged Arthur Machen had received it and then passed it to -- ? ________________________________ From:
                      Message 10 of 18 , Oct 5, 2010
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                        I've no idea, but wouldn't it have been something if the aged Arthur Machen had received it and then passed it to -- ?



                        From: John Rateliff <sacnoth@...>
                        To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tue, October 5, 2010 12:44:02 AM
                        Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Tolkien-related sword in Oxford pub?

                         


                        On Oct 4, 2010, at 4:53 PM, dale nelson wrote:
                        Do you have a source for that, by the way?

                        Can't remember offhand where I've read this, but it's from a pretty well-known source. I'll try to remember to flag it next time I I come across it.

                        Not that it's relevant, but it did just occur to me that we do know of one Inkling who kept a ceremonial sword in his office: Charles Williams. He used it for rituals with his disciples who came to visit him (cf. LETTERS TO LALANGE). I wonder what ever became of it -- did it pass back to his family (widow & son), or did some other member of his order inherit it?

                        --John R.




                      • Mike Foster
                        And now...after many years...it s come down to...Jimmy Page. Mike From: dale nelson Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 2:47 PM To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                        Message 11 of 18 , Oct 5, 2010
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                          And now...after many years...it's come down to...Jimmy Page.
                           
                          Mike

                          Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 2:47 PM
                          Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Tolkien-related sword in Oxford pub?

                           

                          I've no idea, but wouldn't it have been something if the aged Arthur Machen had received it and then passed it to -- ?



                          From: John Rateliff <sacnoth@...>
                          To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Tue, October 5, 2010 12:44:02 AM
                          Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Tolkien-related sword in Oxford pub?

                           


                          On Oct 4, 2010, at 4:53 PM, dale nelson wrote:
                          Do you have a source for that, by the way?

                          Can't remember offhand where I've read this, but it's from a pretty well-known source. I'll try to remember to flag it next time I I come across it.

                          Not that it's relevant, but it did just occur to me that we do know of one Inkling who kept a ceremonial sword in his office: Charles Williams. He used it for rituals with his disciples who came to visit him (cf. LETTERS TO LALANGE). I wonder what ever became of it -- did it pass back to his family (widow & son), or did some other member of his order inherit it?

                          --John R.






                          __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5506 (20101005) __________

                          The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

                          http://www.eset.com


                          __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5506 (20101005) __________

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                        • John Rateliff
                          ... Although he outlived Williams by a year, Machen is unlikely, but his old friend Waite would have been an ideal choice, had he not himself died three years
                          Message 12 of 18 , Oct 6, 2010
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                            On Oct 5, 2010, at 12:47 PM, dale nelson wrote:
                            I've no idea, but wouldn't it have been something if the aged Arthur Machen had received it and then passed it to -- ?

                            Although he outlived Williams by a year, Machen is unlikely, but his old friend Waite would have been an ideal choice, had he not himself died three years earlier. Williams had been in Watie's Order and had been Waite's choice to succeed him as its leader, but instead left to found his own Order (of the Coinherence). There's an interesting, if brief, discussion of this in G. A. Gilbert's biography of A.E.Waite.

                            Crowley, in the words of Monty P., would have been Right Out.


                            On Oct 5, 2010, at 11.25 AM, Mike Foster wrote:
                            With all these Lewises, it's hard to tell Jack and the Detective Inspector apart, much less Meriwether.

                            That's easy: Meriwether is the one who killed himself, CSL is the one relevant to this list, and Inspector is a sidekick given his own (tv-only) sequel-series.

                            --John R.







                          • "Beregond, Anders Stenström"
                            ... Speaking of this, has anybody else here read _Heaven s War_, a comic book with text by Micah Harris and art by Michael Gaydos, in which Charles Williams,
                            Message 13 of 18 , Oct 12, 2010
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                              John Rateliff wrote:

                              > Williams had been in Watie's Order and had been
                              > Waite's choice to succeed him as its leader, but instead left to found
                              > his own Order (of the Coinherence). There's an interesting, if brief,
                              > discussion of this in G. A. Gil bert's biography of A.E.Waite.
                              >
                              > Crowley, in the words of Monty P., would have been Right Out.

                              Speaking of this, has anybody else here read _Heaven's War_, a comic
                              book with text by Micah Harris and art by Michael Gaydos, in which
                              Charles Williams, helped by Lewis and Tolkien, stops the evil plans of
                              Crowley? I found it a lot better than what that description sounds!

                              Chivalrously,

                              Beregond
                            • David Bratman
                              ... I found it a lot worse than the description sounds.
                              Message 14 of 18 , Oct 12, 2010
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                                "Beregond, Anders Stenström" <beregond@...> wrote:

                                > Speaking of this, has anybody else here read _Heaven's War_, a comic
                                >book with text by Micah Harris and art by Michael Gaydos, in which
                                >Charles Williams, helped by Lewis and Tolkien, stops the evil plans of
                                >Crowley? I found it a lot better than what that description sounds!

                                I found it a lot worse than the description sounds.
                              • John Rateliff
                                Hi Anders Yes, I ve read it, and liked it more than David did. I give the author points for focusing attention on Williams, who s rather neglected in stories
                                Message 15 of 18 , Oct 14, 2010
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                                  Hi Anders
                                  Yes, I've read it, and liked it more than David did.
                                  I give the author points for focusing attention on Williams, who's rather neglected in stories in which the Inklings feature as characters. But I was disappointed that the author didn't know much of anything about Tolkien, and so has him behave throughout as he imagines a traditionalist Catholic of the time wd have. Too bad. I'd say HEAVEN'S WAR is an interesting idea that didn't quite come off.




                                  On Oct 12, 2010, at 2:02 PM, Beregond, Anders Stenström wrote:

                                  > John Rateliff wrote:
                                  >> Williams had been in Watie's Order and had been
                                  >> Waite's choice to succeed him as its leader, but instead left to found
                                  >> his own Order (of the Coinherence). There's an interesting, if brief,
                                  >> discussion of this in G. A. Gil bert's biography of A.E.Waite.
                                  >>
                                  >> Crowley, in the words of Monty P., would have been Right Out.
                                  >
                                  > Speaking of this, has anybody else here read _Heaven's War_, a comic
                                  > book with text by Micah Harris and art by Michael Gaydos, in which
                                  > Charles Williams, helped by Lewis and Tolkien, stops the evil plans of
                                  > Crowley? I found it a lot better than what that description sounds!
                                  >
                                  > Chivalrously,
                                  >
                                  > Beregond
                                • artiephesus
                                  I ve just finished it, due to the mention of it here (the concept was too good for me to not check out for myself, and it was available in my library system).
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Oct 20, 2010
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                                    I've just finished it, due to the mention of it here (the concept was too good for me to not check out for myself, and it was available in my library system). I agree with John re: Tolkien -- clearly, Harris wasn't particularly well versed in Tolkien's philosophy or writing (he cites the film version of FELLOWSHIP in his notes, saying that the story of the creation of orcs is told there, but is -- he believes -- actually told in THE SILMARILLION). Harris is most definitely interested in Williams, and I think his use of Williams's own writings, and the depiction of his relationship with Lewis, is nicely done.

                                    I also have to admit that I love the use of Williams vs. Crowley -- as a teaching assistant, I helped a professor design a role-playing adventure scenario around a similar premise for students on a study tour of England. (Exploring concepts of myth and storytelling through adventure role-playing to reinforce a mythology course is particularly enjoyable for me -- but then, I'm an RPG nerd outside of scholarship, as well.) We took far greater liberties than Harris does!

                                    Overall, I'm glad to have read it, and I particularly enjoyed the notes, but agree that it's a particularly bad representation of Tolkien.

                                    -Alana

                                    --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, John Rateliff <sacnoth@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hi Anders
                                    > Yes, I've read it, and liked it more than David did.
                                    > I give the author points for focusing attention on Williams, who's rather neglected in stories in which the Inklings feature as characters. But I was disappointed that the author didn't know much of anything about Tolkien, and so has him behave throughout as he imagines a traditionalist Catholic of the time wd have. Too bad. I'd say HEAVEN'S WAR is an interesting idea that didn't quite come off.
                                    >
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