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"Smeagol also means 'It's me that's Gagool', on the principle of elision."

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  • not_thou
    ... Perhaps it would be better not to name them, but I can t resist quoting the following passage, one of my favorites: One can deny any single example of a
    Message 1 of 25 , Mar 1 12:06 AM
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      >--- dale nelson <extollager2006@...> wrote:
      > I wouldn't be surprised if many people on this discussion list have encountered a greater quantity of bad source studies than I have, in books or articles, or perhaps in meetings of discussion groups! I wouldn't even have a guess as to what those two books are.

      Perhaps it would be better not to name them, but I can't resist quoting the following passage, one of my favorites:

      "One can deny any single example of a more flexible approach if one wishes. But how can one deny them all? One can say, individually, that one does not believe that Atalante is Atlantis; that Avallone is Avalon; that Moria is Moriah; that Bree is the Berea; that Galadriel lives in Galatia; that Minas Tirith is Minos and Tyre; that Lebennin is Lebanon; that Gundabad is the Gunder Peak; that Buckland is the Buchan-land. One can deny, individually, that Gil-galad is Gilgal, that Mithrandir is Mithras, that Aragorn is Arrogant (one who makes a claim, as he claims the throne); that the Eotheod are the Dawn-people, that Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego have become Shagrat, Gorbag and Snaga (My Sack = Your Bag), that Ioreth is Ruth, and the Black King a Haggard Rider, a coal-black Ignosi. One can refuse to believe that Pelargir (referred to as a port in west Middle-earth) comes from the Greek _pelagos_, sea; that Gorgoroth, translated in the phrase Ered Gorgoroth as 'Mountains of Terror' comes from _gorgos_, Greek, grim (as in the Gorgon); that Mordor, as well as _morthor_, is the place of death, _mors_, Latin, death, _dor_, Hebrew, habitation, while Gondor is the place of life, _gone_, Greek, generation, _dor_, Hebrew, habitation. And this last is the real reason why it is translated in Middle-earth as 'Land of Stone' and why it borders on the Bay of Belfalas."

      (_J.R.R. Tolkien: The Shores of Middle-earth_, by Robert Giddings and Elizabeth Holland (1981), p. 176.)

      I've only skimmed what I presume to be the other book, _The Forsaken Realm of Tolkien: Tolkien and the Medieval Tradition_, by Alex Lewis and Elizabeth Currie (2005), which seems to have no passages so entertaining as that. However, I notice they argue (p. 225) that, despite what Christopher Tolkien writes in _The Lays of Beleriand_ (p. 144), there probably is no connection between Earendil's boat, Wingelot and Wade's boat, Guingelot. This founders on J.R.R.T.'s explicit statement relating the two ships in _The Peoples of Middle-earth_ (p. 371) -- unnoticed by Lewis and Currie, who had at least allowed that future developments might prove them wrong on this point.

      -Merlin
    • Sue Bridgwater
      There was an excellent thread on the Tolkien/Haggard relation on LOTRPlaza a year or so back - sadly I can t seem to trace it but it is worth following up - an
      Message 2 of 25 , Mar 1 3:25 AM
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        There was an excellent thread on the Tolkien/Haggard relation on LOTRPlaza a year or so back - sadly I can't seem to trace it but it is worth following up - an admin could find the way to it if it is now in an archive.

        from Sue


      • David Emerson
        ... Aaaaaarrrrrrrrrgggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhh!!! Giddings and Holland! The most blatant example of assuming influence based completely on similarities. They
        Message 3 of 25 , Mar 1 9:34 AM
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          >From: not_thou <emptyD@...>
          >
          >Perhaps it would be better not to name them, but I can't resist quoting the following passage, one of my favorites:
          > [...]
          >(_J.R.R. Tolkien: The Shores of Middle-earth_, by Robert Giddings and Elizabeth Holland (1981), p. 176.)


          Aaaaaarrrrrrrrrgggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhh!!! Giddings and Holland! The most blatant example of assuming influence based completely on similarities. They claimed that Saruman was based on a character from _Lorna Doone_ because the latter had (a) long white hair and (b) a persuasive voice. Bah!

          emerdavid

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        • camontes_dragon2001
          What do you guys think of The Keys of Middle Earth by Stuart Lee? (Subtitle is Discovering Medieval Literature through the Fiction of J.R.R. Tolkien )
          Message 4 of 25 , Mar 1 4:52 PM
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            What do you guys think of "The Keys of Middle Earth" by Stuart Lee? (Subtitle is "Discovering Medieval Literature through the Fiction of J.R.R. Tolkien")

            --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, David Emerson <emerdavid@...> wrote:
            >
            > >From: not_thou <emptyD@...>
            > >
            > >Perhaps it would be better not to name them, but I can't resist quoting the following passage, one of my favorites:
            > > [...]
            > >(_J.R.R. Tolkien: The Shores of Middle-earth_, by Robert Giddings and Elizabeth Holland (1981), p. 176.)
            >
            >
            > Aaaaaarrrrrrrrrgggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhh!!! Giddings and Holland! The most blatant example of assuming influence based completely on similarities. They claimed that Saruman was based on a character from _Lorna Doone_ because the latter had (a) long white hair and (b) a persuasive voice. Bah!
            >
            > emerdavid
            >
            > ________________________________________
            > PeoplePC Online
            > A better way to Internet
            > http://www.peoplepc.com
            >
          • Jason Fisher
            ... By Stuart Lee *and Elizabeth Solopova*. :)   It s a very good collection. I especially like it because the authors print each selection in the original
            Message 5 of 25 , Mar 2 6:40 AM
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              > What do you guys think of "The Keys of Middle Earth" by Stuart Lee? (Subtitle
              > is "Discovering Medieval Literature through the Fiction of J.R.R. Tolkien")
               
              By Stuart Lee *and Elizabeth Solopova*. :)
               
              It's a very good collection. I especially like it because the authors print each selection in the original language with translation on the facing page, unlike previous collections of this type (e.g., The Tolkien Fan's Medieval Reader, by Turgon). Lee and Solopova also contribute notes and commentary, which are both valuable and concise. Perhaps most significantly, they quote from previously unpublished academic lectures and essays by Tolkien. It's well worth reading.
               
              Jason
            • Larry Swain
              What Jason said.  I entirely agree.  I used it a few years ago as a source book for a Tolkien course I was teaching and it worked very well. Larry Swain ...
              Message 6 of 25 , Mar 2 6:57 AM
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                What Jason said.  I entirely agree.  I used it a few years ago as a source book for a Tolkien course I was teaching and it worked very well.

                Larry Swain

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Jason Fisher"
                To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [mythsoc] Re: "Smeagol also means 'It's me that's Gagool', on the principle of elision."
                Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 06:40:54 -0800 (PST)

                 

                > What do you guys think of "The Keys of Middle Earth" by Stuart Lee? (Subtitle
                > is "Discovering Medieval Literature through the Fiction of J.R.R. Tolkien")
                 
                By Stuart Lee *and Elizabeth Solopova*. :)
                 
                It's a very good collection. I especially like it because the authors print each selection in the original language with translation on the facing page, unlike previous collections of this type (e.g., The Tolkien Fan's Medieval Reader, by Turgon). Lee and Solopova also contribute notes and commentary, which are both valuable and concise. Perhaps most significantly, they quote from previously unpublished academic lectures and essays by Tolkien. It's well worth reading.
                 
                Jason


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