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Re: Attention seeking vocabularies

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  • lynnmaudlin
    I enjoyed meeting him at Mythcon 14 but, man! he swung that vocabulary like a sledgehammer--! -- Lynn --
    Message 1 of 24 , Aug 25, 2009
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      I enjoyed meeting him at Mythcon 14 but, man! he swung that vocabulary like a sledgehammer--!

      -- Lynn --


      --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Swain" <theswain@...> wrote:
      >
      > One of the things I've always liked about Donaldson is his
      > vocabulary....he's not a philogist, nor were his parents, but he has the
      > philologists' love of the *word* for its own sake, especially in his
      > early work.
      >
      > Larry Swain
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: scribbler@...
      > To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [mythsoc] Attention seeking vocabularies
      > Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2009 02:21:24 -0400 (EDT)
      >
      >  
      >
      > John Rateliff said:
      > >
      > > Absolutely! But it's not just young readers I'm thinking about. I
      > > don't mind at all coming across an unfamiliar word in something I'm
      > > reading; I just make the best guess I can as to its meaning from
      > the
      > > context and make a mental note to look it up sometime. If the next
      > > time I come across it my theoretical meaning still makes sense, I
      > tend
      > > to think I've more or less got it right.* That's how I've learned
      > most
      > > of the words I know post 1st & 2nd grade reading classes.
      > >
      > > On the other hand, some readers just resent what they see as
      > writers
      > > "showing off". I remember Darrell Schweitzer once wrote a piece
      > > attacking Clark Ashton Smith more or less on the basis that CAS
      > knew
      > > more words that Schweitzer did. Like hobbits who want their books
      > to
      > > be filled with things they already know, these readers (who can be
      > any
      > > age) don't like writing that calls attention to itself, and that
      > > includes unfamiliar words.
      >
      > I too usually picked up meaning from context (usually getting it
      > right).
      > It was an ingrained habit from an early age. So it was one reason I
      > wasn't particularly bothered by reading Stephen Donaldson. On the
      > other
      > hand, I fully appreciated Pat Wynne's cartoon about Donaldson (I
      > still
      > have the original framed on my wall) - about Donaldson's (pregnant)
      > mother
      > being frightened by a "thesaurus" (drawn as a dragon-like critter).
      > Heh.
      > Now THERE was a vocabulary that was "showing off"!
      >
      > Sarah
      >
      >
      >
      > --
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    • lynnmaudlin
      There was a period of time where affected names were the rage, mostly in SF as I recall: lots of punctuation, no phonic sense... made me nuts, I d take to
      Message 2 of 24 , Aug 25, 2009
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        There was a period of time where affected names were the rage, mostly in SF as I recall: lots of punctuation, no phonic sense... made me nuts, I'd take to thinking of characters as "double appostrophe" or "P hyphen" or other uneuphonious mnemonics...

        -- Lynn --


        --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, David Emerson <emerdavid@...> wrote:
        >
        > >... Pat Wynne's cartoon about [Stephen] Donaldson (I still
        > >have the original framed on my wall) - about Donaldson's (pregnant) mother
        > >being frightened by a "thesaurus" (drawn as a dragon-like critter). Heh.
        > >Now THERE was a vocabulary that was "showing off"!
        >
        > As a counter-example, I suggest Gene Wolfe's "Shadow of the Torturer" et al., where obscure vocabulary is used for a specific effect, i.e. creating the sense of a baroque world, millennia in the future yet somehow archaic at the same time.
        >
        > emerdavid
        >
        > ________________________________________
        > PeoplePC Online
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      • lynnmaudlin
        I have a friend who likes to read LOTR in French translation: keeps her French in practice & she processes the story differently... I ve never tried that but I
        Message 3 of 24 , Aug 25, 2009
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          I have a friend who likes to read LOTR in French translation: keeps her French in practice & she processes the story differently... I've never tried that but I wonder if my reading skill is good enough - there are so many different verb forms in French! *whimper*

          -- Lynn --


          --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, Marie-Pierre BODEZ <m.bodez@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > I'm suprised that "glad" should be considered difficult by a person whose mother-tongue is not English. I think I learned that word during the first year of my English lessons.
          > I haven't found the reading of the book in the original language difficult, except some descriptions (names of plants etc.). But Lost Tales was quite a different thing...
          > Marie (whose mother-tongue is French)
          >
          >
          >
          > > > >
          > > --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, John D Rateliff > wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Thanks, Sue. I'm glad you like the piece. The more I study Tolkien,
          > > > the more convinced I become that small details matter, and the more
          > > > impressed I am by the sheer amount of work involved in his creating
          > > > and perfecting his books (a characteristic I think his son Christopher
          > > > shares).
          > > >
          > > > As for the matter of language difficulty in Tolkien, I recommend Brian
          > > > Rosebury's TOLKIEN: A CRITICAL ASSESSMENT [1992], which does a good
          > > > job of refuting the claims that Tolkien wrote mostly in archaic
          > > > language and syntax. In fact, as Rosebury points out, most of THE LORD
          > > > OF THE RINGS is in good, straightforward modern English, with
          > > > heightened vocabulary or sentence structures generally reserved for
          > > > emphasis at particular points. I like your complementary point that
          > > > often moments of great dramatic tension are presented very simply;
          > > > I'll be on the look-out for this next time I re-read LotR.
          > > >
          > > > But of course it's true that Tolkien has a large vocabulary, and there
          > > > will always be some readers for whom this will be a problem.
          > > >
          > > > --John R.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > On Aug 13, 2009, at 3:18 AM, Sue Bridgwater wrote:
          > > > > Belated but nonetheless sincere congratulations to Edith on her
          > > > > nomination - rooting for you!
          > > > >
          > > > > Congrats also to John D. Rateliff for his article in TS6, 2009 - A
          > > > > kind of Elvish craft; Tolkien as literary craftsman. It is so good
          > > > > to see this excellent opening up of the matter of the how of
          > > > > writing. Tolkien was a literary craftsman par excellence.
          > > > > One thing that often comes up on the Plaza when new (very) young
          > > > > folk join, is that having seen the films, they try to read LOTR and,
          > > > > particularly if they have not a great habit of reading, they find
          > > > > the language difficult. I do understand this, and we older hands do
          > > > > our best to nurture and encourage. One thread I started in this
          > > > > connection was to encourage people to seek out passages in which
          > > > > Tolkien had deliberately woven the text out of simple vocabulary,
          > > > > and it turned out to be often at moments of deepest significance,
          > > > > e.g on the slopes of Mt. Doom: I am glad that you are with me, here
          > > > > at the end of all things, Sam. An entire sentence of monosyllables,
          > > > > at just the right time. The mood and cadence are perfect. Only one
          > > > > person, whose mother-tongue was not English, said that glad was an
          > > > > unfamiliar word to him. Otherwise all agreed that you could not
          > > > > call this difficult!
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Jason Fisher
          ... I do the same with my Italian copies, and I ve read pieces of the French translations too. It s very good practice, and you do notice different things. I
          Message 4 of 24 , Aug 25, 2009
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            > I have a friend who likes to read LOTR in French translation:
            > keeps her French in practice & she processes the story differently...

            I do the same with my Italian copies, and I've read pieces of the French translations too. It's very good practice, and you do notice different things. I have a friend who likes to read the French while his high school students are doing busy-work. One of his students once asked, "Wow, so you know French well enough to read The Lord of the Rings in it?!" To which my friend replied, "Not really; it's the reverse: I know The Lord of the Rings well enough to manage with the French!"

            Jase
          • scribbler@scribblerworks.us
            All this talk of reading Tolkien in other languages to practice the language is getting at me! I may give it a try, even though my French is very, very rusty.
            Message 5 of 24 , Aug 25, 2009
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              All this talk of reading Tolkien in other languages to practice the
              language is getting at me! I may give it a try, even though my French is
              very, very rusty. Maybe I'll do THE HOBBIT instead of the whole of LOTR.

              Hmmm.... anyone know if someone has translated THE HOBBIT into Latin? :D



              >> I have a friend who likes to read LOTR in French translation:
              >> keeps her French in practice & she processes the story differently...
              >
              > I do the same with my Italian copies, and I've read pieces of the French
              > translations too. It's very good practice, and you do notice different
              > things. I have a friend who likes to read the French while his high school
              > students are doing busy-work. One of his students once asked, "Wow, so you
              > know French well enough to read The Lord of the Rings in it?!" To which my
              > friend replied, "Not really; it's the reverse: I know The Lord of the
              > Rings well enough to manage with the French!"
              >
              > Jase
              >
            • Marie-Pierre BODEZ
              Try LOTR in French, it s great (I m afraid there is no Latin translation) ! My dream is to be able to read LOTR in Icelandic ! Tolkien has said that it was the
              Message 6 of 24 , Aug 25, 2009
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                Try LOTR in French, it's great (I'm afraid there is no Latin translation) !
                My dream is to be able to read LOTR in Icelandic ! Tolkien has said that it was the best language to translate it, hasn't he ?
                one day... perhaps... but it's so hard !
                Marie




                > Message du 25/08/09 19:52
                > De : scribbler@...
                > A : mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                > Copie à :
                > Objet : [mythsoc] Reading translations for practice.
                >
                > > All this talk of reading Tolkien in other languages to practice the
                > language is getting at me! I may give it a try, even though my French is
                > very, very rusty. Maybe I'll do THE HOBBIT instead of the whole of LOTR.
                >
                > Hmmm.... anyone know if someone has translated THE HOBBIT into Latin? :D
                >
                > >> I have a friend who likes to read LOTR in French translation:
                > >> keeps her French in practice & she processes the story differently...
                > >
                > > I do the same with my Italian copies, and I've read pieces of the French
                > > translations too. It's very good practice, and you do notice different
                > > things. I have a friend who likes to read the French while his high school
                > > students are doing busy-work. One of his students once asked, "Wow, so you
                > > know French well enough to read The Lord of the Rings in it?!" To which my
                > > friend replied, "Not really; it's the reverse: I know The Lord of the
                > > Rings well enough to manage with the French!"
                > >
                > > Jase
                > >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • David Emerson
                ... Don t know about that, but you could start out with WINNIE ILLE PU, which I read in high school for extra credit in 4th-year Latin. emerdavid
                Message 7 of 24 , Aug 25, 2009
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                  -----Original Message-----
                  >From: scribbler@...
                  >
                  >Hmmm.... anyone know if someone has translated THE HOBBIT into Latin? :D

                  Don't know about that, but you could start out with WINNIE ILLE PU, which I read in high school for extra credit in 4th-year Latin.

                  emerdavid

                  ________________________________________
                  PeoplePC Online
                  A better way to Internet
                  http://www.peoplepc.com
                • scribbler@scribblerworks.us
                  Oooo! Winnie! I did not know. I do have THE CAT IN THE HAT in Latin, though. A friend gave it to me for Christmas. She understands my Geekitude.
                  Message 8 of 24 , Aug 25, 2009
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                    Oooo! Winnie! I did not know.

                    I do have THE CAT IN THE HAT in Latin, though. A friend gave it to me for
                    Christmas. She understands my Geekitude.


                    > -----Original Message-----
                    >>From: scribbler@...
                    >>
                    >>Hmmm.... anyone know if someone has translated THE HOBBIT into Latin? :D
                    >
                    > Don't know about that, but you could start out with WINNIE ILLE PU, which
                    > I read in high school for extra credit in 4th-year Latin.
                    >
                    > emerdavid
                    >
                    > ________________________________________
                    > PeoplePC Online
                    > A better way to Internet
                    > http://www.peoplepc.com
                    >
                  • Croft, Janet B.
                    And then there s Alicia in Terra Mirabilis... Janet Brennan Croft From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                    Message 9 of 24 , Aug 26, 2009
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                      And then there's Alicia in Terra Mirabilis...

                      Janet Brennan Croft

                      From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of scribbler@...
                      Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 8:38 PM
                      To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Reading translations for practice.



                      Oooo! Winnie! I did not know.

                      I do have THE CAT IN THE HAT in Latin, though. A friend gave it to me for
                      Christmas. She understands my Geekitude.

                      > -----Original Message-----
                      >>From: scribbler@...<mailto:scribbler%40scribblerworks.us>
                      >>
                      >>Hmmm.... anyone know if someone has translated THE HOBBIT into Latin? :D
                      >
                      > Don't know about that, but you could start out with WINNIE ILLE PU, which
                      > I read in high school for extra credit in 4th-year Latin.
                      >
                      > emerdavid
                      >
                      > ________________________________________
                      > PeoplePC Online
                      > A better way to Internet
                      > http://www.peoplepc.com
                      >



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • alexeik@aol.com
                      ... From: Jason Fisher To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, Aug 25, 2009 10:25 am Subject: [mythsoc] Re: Congratulations x 2 ... I
                      Message 10 of 24 , Aug 26, 2009
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                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Jason Fisher <visualweasel@...>
                        To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tue, Aug 25, 2009 10:25 am
                        Subject: [mythsoc] Re: Congratulations x 2

                        > I have a friend who likes to read LOTR in French translation:
                        > keeps her French in practice & she processes the story differently...

                        I do the same with my Italian copies, and I've read pieces of the
                        French translations too. It's very good practice, and you do notice
                        different things. I have a friend who likes to read the French while
                        his high school students are doing busy-work. One of his students once
                        asked, "Wow, so you know French well enough to read The Lord of the
                        Rings in it?!" To which my friend replied, "Not really; it's the
                        reverse: I know The Lord of the Rings well enough to manage with the
                        French!"
                        <<

                        I've done that with the Bible for years -- given that not only do I
                        know the content pretty well, but it's the one book that's been
                        translated in many of the languages I study.
                        Alexei
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