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re: [mythsoc] Re: Congratulations x 2

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  • David Emerson
    ... The Lost Tales can be difficult even for those of us whose mother tongue is English! emerdavid ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A
    Message 1 of 24 , Aug 17, 2009
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      >I haven't found the reading of the book in the original language difficult, except some descriptions (names of plants etc.). But Lost Tales was quite a different thing...
      >Marie (whose mother-tongue is French)

      The Lost Tales can be difficult even for those of us whose mother tongue is English!

      emerdavid

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    • Diane Joy Baker
      Ohh, yes. Wolfe is using it just for that effect. It s one of the things that attracted me to the series. Aside from Severian s character. ---djb ... From:
      Message 2 of 24 , Aug 20, 2009
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        Ohh, yes. Wolfe is using it just for that effect. It's one of the things that attracted me to the series. Aside from Severian's character. ---djb
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: David Emerson
        To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 12:46 PM
        Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Attention seeking vocabularies


        >... Pat Wynne's cartoon about [Stephen] Donaldson (I still
        >have the original framed on my wall) - about Donaldson's (pregnant) mother
        >being frightened by a "thesaurus" (drawn as a dragon-like critter). Heh.
        >Now THERE was a vocabulary that was "showing off"!

        As a counter-example, I suggest Gene Wolfe's "Shadow of the Torturer" et al., where obscure vocabulary is used for a specific effect, i.e. creating the sense of a baroque world, millennia in the future yet somehow archaic at the same time.

        emerdavid

        ________________________________________
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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • lynnmaudlin
        I always like it when I come across new words, ESPECIALLY when someone is speaking - sometimes it turns out to be a word I ve been mispronouncing in my head
        Message 3 of 24 , Aug 25, 2009
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          I always like it when I come across new words, ESPECIALLY when someone is speaking - sometimes it turns out to be a word I've been mispronouncing "in my head" for years--!!! I'm like you re: figuring out from context; I assume that's the common approach to unknown words but I don't really know... anyone? anyone? bueller?

          -- Lynn --


          --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, John D Rateliff <sacnoth@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > On Aug 15, 2009, at 5:49 PM, Alana wrote:
          > >> But of course it's true that Tolkien has a large vocabulary, and
          > >> there
          > >> will always be some readers for whom this will be a problem.
          > >
          > > There will also always be some young readers for whom LotR becomes
          > > how they expand their vocabulary. :)
          > >
          > > -Alana
          >
          > Absolutely! But it's not just young readers I'm thinking about. I
          > don't mind at all coming across an unfamiliar word in something I'm
          > reading; I just make the best guess I can as to its meaning from the
          > context and make a mental note to look it up sometime. If the next
          > time I come across it my theoretical meaning still makes sense, I tend
          > to think I've more or less got it right.* That's how I've learned most
          > of the words I know post 1st & 2nd grade reading classes.
          >
          > On the other hand, some readers just resent what they see as writers
          > "showing off". I remember Darrell Schweitzer once wrote a piece
          > attacking Clark Ashton Smith more or less on the basis that CAS knew
          > more words that Schweitzer did. Like hobbits who want their books to
          > be filled with things they already know, these readers (who can be any
          > age) don't like writing that calls attention to itself, and that
          > includes unfamiliar words.
          >
          > As for Tolkien and young readers, I remember my high school librarian
          > telling me that readers of THE LORD OF THE RINGS tended to fall into
          > two categories: those who read a lot, and those who hardly read at
          > all, and that a surprising number of the latter got hooked on the book.
          >
          > Rowling is another example of an author who demands more of her
          > readers than the average reader is supposed to be willing to give.
          >
          > --John R.
          >
          >
          > *The one time I got it wrong and didn't realize it for years was the
          > word "tacit", since the meaning I'd guessed at was plausibly close to
          > its actual literal meaning.
          >
        • lynnmaudlin
          I enjoyed meeting him at Mythcon 14 but, man! he swung that vocabulary like a sledgehammer--! -- Lynn --
          Message 4 of 24 , Aug 25, 2009
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            I enjoyed meeting him at Mythcon 14 but, man! he swung that vocabulary like a sledgehammer--!

            -- Lynn --


            --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Swain" <theswain@...> wrote:
            >
            > One of the things I've always liked about Donaldson is his
            > vocabulary....he's not a philogist, nor were his parents, but he has the
            > philologists' love of the *word* for its own sake, especially in his
            > early work.
            >
            > Larry Swain
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: scribbler@...
            > To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [mythsoc] Attention seeking vocabularies
            > Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2009 02:21:24 -0400 (EDT)
            >
            >  
            >
            > John Rateliff said:
            > >
            > > Absolutely! But it's not just young readers I'm thinking about. I
            > > don't mind at all coming across an unfamiliar word in something I'm
            > > reading; I just make the best guess I can as to its meaning from
            > the
            > > context and make a mental note to look it up sometime. If the next
            > > time I come across it my theoretical meaning still makes sense, I
            > tend
            > > to think I've more or less got it right.* That's how I've learned
            > most
            > > of the words I know post 1st & 2nd grade reading classes.
            > >
            > > On the other hand, some readers just resent what they see as
            > writers
            > > "showing off". I remember Darrell Schweitzer once wrote a piece
            > > attacking Clark Ashton Smith more or less on the basis that CAS
            > knew
            > > more words that Schweitzer did. Like hobbits who want their books
            > to
            > > be filled with things they already know, these readers (who can be
            > any
            > > age) don't like writing that calls attention to itself, and that
            > > includes unfamiliar words.
            >
            > I too usually picked up meaning from context (usually getting it
            > right).
            > It was an ingrained habit from an early age. So it was one reason I
            > wasn't particularly bothered by reading Stephen Donaldson. On the
            > other
            > hand, I fully appreciated Pat Wynne's cartoon about Donaldson (I
            > still
            > have the original framed on my wall) - about Donaldson's (pregnant)
            > mother
            > being frightened by a "thesaurus" (drawn as a dragon-like critter).
            > Heh.
            > Now THERE was a vocabulary that was "showing off"!
            >
            > Sarah
            >
            >
            >
            > --
            > _______________________________________________
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            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • lynnmaudlin
            There was a period of time where affected names were the rage, mostly in SF as I recall: lots of punctuation, no phonic sense... made me nuts, I d take to
            Message 5 of 24 , Aug 25, 2009
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              There was a period of time where affected names were the rage, mostly in SF as I recall: lots of punctuation, no phonic sense... made me nuts, I'd take to thinking of characters as "double appostrophe" or "P hyphen" or other uneuphonious mnemonics...

              -- Lynn --


              --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, David Emerson <emerdavid@...> wrote:
              >
              > >... Pat Wynne's cartoon about [Stephen] Donaldson (I still
              > >have the original framed on my wall) - about Donaldson's (pregnant) mother
              > >being frightened by a "thesaurus" (drawn as a dragon-like critter). Heh.
              > >Now THERE was a vocabulary that was "showing off"!
              >
              > As a counter-example, I suggest Gene Wolfe's "Shadow of the Torturer" et al., where obscure vocabulary is used for a specific effect, i.e. creating the sense of a baroque world, millennia in the future yet somehow archaic at the same time.
              >
              > emerdavid
              >
              > ________________________________________
              > PeoplePC Online
              > A better way to Internet
              > http://www.peoplepc.com
              >
            • lynnmaudlin
              I have a friend who likes to read LOTR in French translation: keeps her French in practice & she processes the story differently... I ve never tried that but I
              Message 6 of 24 , Aug 25, 2009
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                I have a friend who likes to read LOTR in French translation: keeps her French in practice & she processes the story differently... I've never tried that but I wonder if my reading skill is good enough - there are so many different verb forms in French! *whimper*

                -- Lynn --


                --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, Marie-Pierre BODEZ <m.bodez@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > I'm suprised that "glad" should be considered difficult by a person whose mother-tongue is not English. I think I learned that word during the first year of my English lessons.
                > I haven't found the reading of the book in the original language difficult, except some descriptions (names of plants etc.). But Lost Tales was quite a different thing...
                > Marie (whose mother-tongue is French)
                >
                >
                >
                > > > >
                > > --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, John D Rateliff > wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Thanks, Sue. I'm glad you like the piece. The more I study Tolkien,
                > > > the more convinced I become that small details matter, and the more
                > > > impressed I am by the sheer amount of work involved in his creating
                > > > and perfecting his books (a characteristic I think his son Christopher
                > > > shares).
                > > >
                > > > As for the matter of language difficulty in Tolkien, I recommend Brian
                > > > Rosebury's TOLKIEN: A CRITICAL ASSESSMENT [1992], which does a good
                > > > job of refuting the claims that Tolkien wrote mostly in archaic
                > > > language and syntax. In fact, as Rosebury points out, most of THE LORD
                > > > OF THE RINGS is in good, straightforward modern English, with
                > > > heightened vocabulary or sentence structures generally reserved for
                > > > emphasis at particular points. I like your complementary point that
                > > > often moments of great dramatic tension are presented very simply;
                > > > I'll be on the look-out for this next time I re-read LotR.
                > > >
                > > > But of course it's true that Tolkien has a large vocabulary, and there
                > > > will always be some readers for whom this will be a problem.
                > > >
                > > > --John R.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > On Aug 13, 2009, at 3:18 AM, Sue Bridgwater wrote:
                > > > > Belated but nonetheless sincere congratulations to Edith on her
                > > > > nomination - rooting for you!
                > > > >
                > > > > Congrats also to John D. Rateliff for his article in TS6, 2009 - A
                > > > > kind of Elvish craft; Tolkien as literary craftsman. It is so good
                > > > > to see this excellent opening up of the matter of the how of
                > > > > writing. Tolkien was a literary craftsman par excellence.
                > > > > One thing that often comes up on the Plaza when new (very) young
                > > > > folk join, is that having seen the films, they try to read LOTR and,
                > > > > particularly if they have not a great habit of reading, they find
                > > > > the language difficult. I do understand this, and we older hands do
                > > > > our best to nurture and encourage. One thread I started in this
                > > > > connection was to encourage people to seek out passages in which
                > > > > Tolkien had deliberately woven the text out of simple vocabulary,
                > > > > and it turned out to be often at moments of deepest significance,
                > > > > e.g on the slopes of Mt. Doom: I am glad that you are with me, here
                > > > > at the end of all things, Sam. An entire sentence of monosyllables,
                > > > > at just the right time. The mood and cadence are perfect. Only one
                > > > > person, whose mother-tongue was not English, said that glad was an
                > > > > unfamiliar word to him. Otherwise all agreed that you could not
                > > > > call this difficult!
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Jason Fisher
                ... I do the same with my Italian copies, and I ve read pieces of the French translations too. It s very good practice, and you do notice different things. I
                Message 7 of 24 , Aug 25, 2009
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                  > I have a friend who likes to read LOTR in French translation:
                  > keeps her French in practice & she processes the story differently...

                  I do the same with my Italian copies, and I've read pieces of the French translations too. It's very good practice, and you do notice different things. I have a friend who likes to read the French while his high school students are doing busy-work. One of his students once asked, "Wow, so you know French well enough to read The Lord of the Rings in it?!" To which my friend replied, "Not really; it's the reverse: I know The Lord of the Rings well enough to manage with the French!"

                  Jase
                • scribbler@scribblerworks.us
                  All this talk of reading Tolkien in other languages to practice the language is getting at me! I may give it a try, even though my French is very, very rusty.
                  Message 8 of 24 , Aug 25, 2009
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                    All this talk of reading Tolkien in other languages to practice the
                    language is getting at me! I may give it a try, even though my French is
                    very, very rusty. Maybe I'll do THE HOBBIT instead of the whole of LOTR.

                    Hmmm.... anyone know if someone has translated THE HOBBIT into Latin? :D



                    >> I have a friend who likes to read LOTR in French translation:
                    >> keeps her French in practice & she processes the story differently...
                    >
                    > I do the same with my Italian copies, and I've read pieces of the French
                    > translations too. It's very good practice, and you do notice different
                    > things. I have a friend who likes to read the French while his high school
                    > students are doing busy-work. One of his students once asked, "Wow, so you
                    > know French well enough to read The Lord of the Rings in it?!" To which my
                    > friend replied, "Not really; it's the reverse: I know The Lord of the
                    > Rings well enough to manage with the French!"
                    >
                    > Jase
                    >
                  • Marie-Pierre BODEZ
                    Try LOTR in French, it s great (I m afraid there is no Latin translation) ! My dream is to be able to read LOTR in Icelandic ! Tolkien has said that it was the
                    Message 9 of 24 , Aug 25, 2009
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                      Try LOTR in French, it's great (I'm afraid there is no Latin translation) !
                      My dream is to be able to read LOTR in Icelandic ! Tolkien has said that it was the best language to translate it, hasn't he ?
                      one day... perhaps... but it's so hard !
                      Marie




                      > Message du 25/08/09 19:52
                      > De : scribbler@...
                      > A : mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                      > Copie à :
                      > Objet : [mythsoc] Reading translations for practice.
                      >
                      > > All this talk of reading Tolkien in other languages to practice the
                      > language is getting at me! I may give it a try, even though my French is
                      > very, very rusty. Maybe I'll do THE HOBBIT instead of the whole of LOTR.
                      >
                      > Hmmm.... anyone know if someone has translated THE HOBBIT into Latin? :D
                      >
                      > >> I have a friend who likes to read LOTR in French translation:
                      > >> keeps her French in practice & she processes the story differently...
                      > >
                      > > I do the same with my Italian copies, and I've read pieces of the French
                      > > translations too. It's very good practice, and you do notice different
                      > > things. I have a friend who likes to read the French while his high school
                      > > students are doing busy-work. One of his students once asked, "Wow, so you
                      > > know French well enough to read The Lord of the Rings in it?!" To which my
                      > > friend replied, "Not really; it's the reverse: I know The Lord of the
                      > > Rings well enough to manage with the French!"
                      > >
                      > > Jase
                      > >
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • David Emerson
                      ... Don t know about that, but you could start out with WINNIE ILLE PU, which I read in high school for extra credit in 4th-year Latin. emerdavid
                      Message 10 of 24 , Aug 25, 2009
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                        -----Original Message-----
                        >From: scribbler@...
                        >
                        >Hmmm.... anyone know if someone has translated THE HOBBIT into Latin? :D

                        Don't know about that, but you could start out with WINNIE ILLE PU, which I read in high school for extra credit in 4th-year Latin.

                        emerdavid

                        ________________________________________
                        PeoplePC Online
                        A better way to Internet
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                      • scribbler@scribblerworks.us
                        Oooo! Winnie! I did not know. I do have THE CAT IN THE HAT in Latin, though. A friend gave it to me for Christmas. She understands my Geekitude.
                        Message 11 of 24 , Aug 25, 2009
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                          Oooo! Winnie! I did not know.

                          I do have THE CAT IN THE HAT in Latin, though. A friend gave it to me for
                          Christmas. She understands my Geekitude.


                          > -----Original Message-----
                          >>From: scribbler@...
                          >>
                          >>Hmmm.... anyone know if someone has translated THE HOBBIT into Latin? :D
                          >
                          > Don't know about that, but you could start out with WINNIE ILLE PU, which
                          > I read in high school for extra credit in 4th-year Latin.
                          >
                          > emerdavid
                          >
                          > ________________________________________
                          > PeoplePC Online
                          > A better way to Internet
                          > http://www.peoplepc.com
                          >
                        • Croft, Janet B.
                          And then there s Alicia in Terra Mirabilis... Janet Brennan Croft From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                          Message 12 of 24 , Aug 26, 2009
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                            And then there's Alicia in Terra Mirabilis...

                            Janet Brennan Croft

                            From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of scribbler@...
                            Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 8:38 PM
                            To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Reading translations for practice.



                            Oooo! Winnie! I did not know.

                            I do have THE CAT IN THE HAT in Latin, though. A friend gave it to me for
                            Christmas. She understands my Geekitude.

                            > -----Original Message-----
                            >>From: scribbler@...<mailto:scribbler%40scribblerworks.us>
                            >>
                            >>Hmmm.... anyone know if someone has translated THE HOBBIT into Latin? :D
                            >
                            > Don't know about that, but you could start out with WINNIE ILLE PU, which
                            > I read in high school for extra credit in 4th-year Latin.
                            >
                            > emerdavid
                            >
                            > ________________________________________
                            > PeoplePC Online
                            > A better way to Internet
                            > http://www.peoplepc.com
                            >



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • alexeik@aol.com
                            ... From: Jason Fisher To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, Aug 25, 2009 10:25 am Subject: [mythsoc] Re: Congratulations x 2 ... I
                            Message 13 of 24 , Aug 26, 2009
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                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Jason Fisher <visualweasel@...>
                              To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Tue, Aug 25, 2009 10:25 am
                              Subject: [mythsoc] Re: Congratulations x 2

                              > I have a friend who likes to read LOTR in French translation:
                              > keeps her French in practice & she processes the story differently...

                              I do the same with my Italian copies, and I've read pieces of the
                              French translations too. It's very good practice, and you do notice
                              different things. I have a friend who likes to read the French while
                              his high school students are doing busy-work. One of his students once
                              asked, "Wow, so you know French well enough to read The Lord of the
                              Rings in it?!" To which my friend replied, "Not really; it's the
                              reverse: I know The Lord of the Rings well enough to manage with the
                              French!"
                              <<

                              I've done that with the Bible for years -- given that not only do I
                              know the content pretty well, but it's the one book that's been
                              translated in many of the languages I study.
                              Alexei
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