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Re: [mythsoc] Re: Catholicism and Lord of the Rings

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  • scribbler@scribblerworks.us
    ... Well, it would seem incongruous that Mandos himself would not be able to distinguish between a nearly dead mortal soul and a dead one. Mandos is made
    Message 1 of 51 , Jun 12, 2009
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      > I've always wondered -- was Beren really dead? Or was he merely so close
      > to death that no one around could tell the difference? Was he really
      > resurrected, or simply revived?
      >
      > If the Gift of Men is beyond even the Valar's understanding, it doesn't
      > make sense that Mandos would have the power to give Beren back his life,
      > no matter how persuasively Luthien sang.
      >
      > emerdavid

      Well, it would seem incongruous that Mandos himself would not be able to
      distinguish between a "nearly dead" mortal soul and a "dead" one. Mandos
      is made anxious about the situation because Beren WILL NOT GO ON the way
      he is supposed to.

      It seems to me, that Beren's soul held onto the world to an unexpected
      degree, instead of passing out of the world. If he had passed out of the
      world, then I agree, Luthien's singing would have been tragic in that it
      would be to no point -- Beren would not be *there* to be returned. But
      that's not what Tolkien sets as the situation. He has Beren "hanging
      around" unexpectedly.

      I say - Beren was dead, but not "departed". A unique situation that the
      Valar could actually address.
    • David Emerson
      Luthien: Alas! My beloved has perished! I must go to the Halls of Mandos to beg -- Beren: I m not dead yet. Luthien: Shh! To beg Mandos to bring him
      Message 51 of 51 , Jun 15, 2009
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        Luthien: Alas! My beloved has perished! I must go to the Halls of Mandos to beg --
        Beren: I'm not dead yet.
        Luthien: Shh! To beg Mandos to bring him back --
        Beren: I don't want to go on the cart.
        Luthien: Shut up! I'm having a dramatic moment here.
        Beren: I feel happy...
        Luthien: (Nods to nearest elf with big club)
        Big Club: Thud.
        Luthien: Okay, I'm off to the Halls of Mandos. See ya. (Falls down)


        -----Original Message-----
        >From: John Davis <john@...>
        >Sent: Jun 15, 2009 3:48 AM
        >To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Catholicism and Lord of the Rings
        >
        >Perhaps he was just mostly dead.
        >
        >John
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: scribbler@...
        > To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 4:40 PM
        > Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Catholicism and Lord of the Rings
        >
        > > I've always wondered -- was Beren really dead? Or was he merely so close
        > > to death that no one around could tell the difference? Was he really
        > > resurrected, or simply revived?
        > >
        > > If the Gift of Men is beyond even the Valar's understanding, it doesn't
        > > make sense that Mandos would have the power to give Beren back his life,
        > > no matter how persuasively Luthien sang.
        > >
        > > emerdavid
        >
        > Well, it would seem incongruous that Mandos himself would not be able to
        > distinguish between a "nearly dead" mortal soul and a "dead" one. Mandos
        > is made anxious about the situation because Beren WILL NOT GO ON the way
        > he is supposed to.
        >
        > It seems to me, that Beren's soul held onto the world to an unexpected
        > degree, instead of passing out of the world. If he had passed out of the
        > world, then I agree, Luthien's singing would have been tragic in that it
        > would be to no point -- Beren would not be *there* to be returned. But
        > that's not what Tolkien sets as the situation. He has Beren "hanging
        > around" unexpectedly.
        >
        > I say - Beren was dead, but not "departed". A unique situation that the
        > Valar could actually address.

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